Homer's The Odyssey, translated by Emily Wilson discussion

As suggested by W.D. Clarke and seconded by George: "for drunken chitchat about reading and reading while drinking (and assorted silliness)." Have fun!

Slàinte!
The gods I mean mods must be crazy! Or are too good to us.

But, Mod: we need a "symposiarch" (see below), may we nominate you?

symposium (n.)
1580s, "account of a gathering or party," from Latin symposium "drinking party, symposium," from Greek symposion "drinking party, convivial gathering of the educated" (related to sympotes "drinking companion"), from assimilated form of syn- "together" (see syn-) + posis "a drinking," from a stem of Aeolic ponen "to drink," from PIE root *po(i)- "to drink."

The symposium usually followed a dinner, for the Greeks did not drink at meals. Its enjoyment was heightened by intellectual or agreeable conversation, by the introduction of music or dancers, and by other amusements. [Century Dictionary]

The sense of "a meeting on some subject" is from 1784. Reflecting the Greek fondness for mixing wine and intellectual discussion, the modern sense is especially from the word being used as a title for one of Plato's dialogues. Greek plural is symposia, and the leader of one is a symposiarch (c. 1600 in English). Related: Symposiac (adj.); symposial.

Very kind, Bill! I'm honored and happy to accept, especially as I know the music, conversation, drink, and other amusements will be stimulating.

Bill to friends, friend George!

(I'm going to lurk in the symposium and see what festivities you all conjure)

Sue wrote: "(I'm going to lurk in the symposium and see what festivities you all conjure)"

You don't have to drink alcoholic beverages to lurk. Wine-dark sea or no....

Sue wrote: "(I'm going to lurk in the symposium and see what festivities you all conjure)"

I'm hoping we'll entice you to join in, Sue!

I somehow don't think this is exactly what Bill had in mind, but as there's a link to Greek philosophy, perhaps some Philosophers' Football courtesy of Monty Python could get us started? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2gJa...

Ken wrote: "Sue wrote: "(I'm going to lurk in the symposium and see what festivities you all conjure)"

You don't have to drink alcoholic beverages to lurk. Wine-dark sea or no...."

Excellent reference, Ken!

That's exactly what I had in mind! Drunkenness as metaphor is as much as what Dionysus is about as its literal variant, no?! Anything that defeats the Scottish grandmother's adage "Too much laughing leads to crying" would go down well in this room, I think (whose subtitle could be Dionysus's Den (I've always had trouble with apostrophies and plurals after the letter s)...

W.D. wrote: "That's exactly what I had in mind! Drunkenness as metaphor is as much as what Dionysus is about as its literal variant, no?! Anything that defeats the Scottish grandmother's adage "To much laughing..."

Cheers to that!

Perhaps this is the proper forum in which to discuss Jane Harrison, a late-Victorian classicist who was enamored of the darker, Dionysian elements of ancient Greece. I'll add the Mary Beard bio The Invention of Jane Harrison to our bookshelf. Here I'll just quote an intriguing snippet from The Guardian review:

"Her lectures were full-scale theatrical events that she toured around the country. She dressed for the occasion, most famously in a shimmering beetle green, talking emphatically and always down to her audience, casting shadows over the hand-painted images of bearded serpents, sacrificial oxen and key words projected onto the screen behind her. There were sound effects, too. On one memorable occasion she had two friends whirl bull-roarers at the back of the hall to evoke the noises of a mystery cult. In Glasgow, 1,600 people came to hear her talk on Attic grave stelae, or so she told the reporter from the Gazette. To many she was a living monument, to others a brilliant self-publicist."

Lisa wrote: "Perhaps this is the proper forum in which to discuss Jane Harrison, a late-Victorian classicist who was enamored of the darker, Dionysian elements of ancient Greece. I'll add the Mary Beard bio [bo..."

I'm so glad you brought Harrison into the Symposium, Lisa -- she sounds like an amazing character. She seems made for IMAX theaters -- perhaps she was born before her time! I just ordered the Beard biography.

Kris wrote: "I'm so glad you brought Harrison into the Symposium, Lisa -- she sounds like an amazing character. She seems made for IMAX theaters -- perhaps she was born before her time! I just ordered the Beard biography. "

Ha! I've hooked one reader, at least. I'll happily read it alongside you, and maybe we can interest others. (Ken, my new friend, how about it? Ilsa? Ted? Margitte?)

I was introduced to Harrison in a grad school seminar on Victorian intellectual history. The professor was very snarky, whenever he mentioned her. Now it occurs to me that she threatened him. Delicious insight, even if it took me forty years to see it . . .

Lisa wrote: "Kris wrote: "I'm so glad you brought Harrison into the Symposium, Lisa -- she sounds like an amazing character. She seems made for IMAX theaters -- perhaps she was born before her time! I just orde..."

I too am intrigued, and hadn't heard of her, thanks :)

W.D. wrote: "I too am intrigued, and hadn't heard of her, thanks :) "

My pleasure, W.D.

Lisa wrote: "Ha! I've hooked one reader, at least. I'll happily read it alongside you, and maybe we can interest others. (Ken, my new friend, how about it? Ilsa? Ted? Margitte?)."

This sounds great, Lisa. I just set up a discussion thread: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

I've never heard of Harrison before but she sounds very interesting and probably quite intimidating back in her day...very likely today too. I may have to add this to my list too. I can see this is going to be a dangerous group :-)

Sue wrote: "I've never heard of Harrison before but she sounds very interesting and probably quite intimidating back in her day...very likely today too. I may have to add this to my list too. I can see this is going to be a dangerous group :-) "

I was just thinking the same thing, Sue, as I was ordering some books today....

Ken, well said! Congrats on working Homeric language into the conversation and W.D. for expanding the world of Dionysus...metaphorical or actual drunkenness while reading the Iliad might alter the experience but create quite a symposium..
Kris, I'll check out the YouTube when I return to my PC but any reference to Monty Python already has my full attention.

I'm throwing in a suggestion for those who might be uber-enthusiastic and dedicated to out new adventure. :-))

I read a very interesting book Through the Language Glass: Why the World Looks Different in Other Languages by Guy Deutscher
My review can be read here if someone is interested:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

In the review, I added some thoughts from the book on Homer's use of color, as well as the universal debate around the subject. Since it is long-ish (the spoiler, as well as some quotes) I don't want to repeat it here and splash too much information here, drowning our simposium before we even started. But perhaps someone might be interested in finding the book referenced in the review.

I will just add a paragraph from the review here to wet the appetites :-)

The debate around color was set off by Right Honorable William Ewart Gladstone who published his Studies on Homer and the Homeric Age in London, March, 1858. Seventeen hundred pages covering three volumes, with a range of topics, from the geography of the Odyssey to Homer's sense of beauty; from the position of women in Homeric society, to the moral character of Helen. Tucked away in the last volume was the curious and seemingly marginal theme of "Homer's perception and use of color."

I actually found the book (Studies on Homer and the Homeric Age in London) on the internet, although it is not the complete one
https://archive.org/stream/studiesonh...

It is probably the first volume. It can be downloaded in epub or pdf format (467 pages)

It was actually this language book which inspired me to add a reread of Homer to my Bucket List. The invitation to join this group just had me dancing with joy. Now I HAVE to do it. So thank you once again, Kris :-))

Thanks so much for the post and the link to your review, Margitte! I've had Deutscher on my to-read shelf for a while. Looking forward to reading your review and finally picking up the book.

Lisa wrote: "Kris wrote: "I'm so glad you brought Harrison into the Symposium, Lisa -- she sounds like an amazing character. Ha! I've hooked one reader, at least. I'll happily read it alongside you, and maybe we can interest others. (Ken, my new friend, how about it? Ilsa? Ted? Margitte?)"
I'd be glad and curious to follow the discussion thread on Harrison, Lisa, she seems indeed very interesting. If I would find time for additional reading I'd like to read the Manguel book Kris already added to the shelf Homer's the Iliad and the Odyssey: A Biography, maybe others would too...

I'm interested in reading the Manguel book too, Ilse. I'll add a discussion thread and we can see who else might be interested.

Thread created: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Ilse wrote: "I'd be glad and curious to follow the discussion thread on Harrison, Lisa, she seems indeed very interesting. If I would find time for additional reading I'd like to read the Manguel book Kris already added to the shelf Homer's the Iliad and the Odyssey: A Biography, maybe others would too... "

Great! I'd better get started on my holiday reading. Your suggestion looks good too . . .

Another book I'm interested in, Kris. A lot of reading ahead.

Margitte wrote: "I'm throwing in a suggestion for those who might be uber-enthusiastic and dedicated to out new adventure. :-))

I read a very interesting book Through the Language Glass: Why the World Looks Differ..."

I read your review, including the spoiler, and you've got me intrigued, Margitte. This is going to be an enriching adventure!

Margitte, I'm also interested in your suggestion. Anything related to perception and variations therein intrigue me.

Listen!
(Not sure this has been posted previously.)

BBC Radio 3 - Free Thinking, Landmark: The Odyssey
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09kqjc0

It is possible that this is posted elsewhere, but it could be of interest to the group. There is a relevant course just starting at edX.

https://www.edx.org/course/ancient-gr...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scJoo...

"Explore what it means to be human today by studying what it meant to be a hero in ancient Greek times.

In this introduction to ancient Greek culture and literature, learners will experience, in English translation, some of the most beautiful works of ancient Greek literature and song-making spanning over a thousand years from the 8th century BCE through the 3rd century CE: the Homeric Iliad and Odyssey; tragedies of Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides; songs of Sappho and Pindar; dialogues of Plato, and On Heroes by Philostratus. All of the resources are free and designed to be equally accessible and transformative for a wide audience."

I wasn't sure where to put this comment, so I'm happy for this thread for "anything"!

I'm ODing on poetic writing lately, with The Iliad and Shakespeare and I am also reading Doctor Zhivago. I came across this line last night that I think applies to our reading here. Yuri is writing in his journal, thoughts about everything, including the reading aloud they do on long winter nights in Varykino:

"One is much more shaken by the presence of art in Crime and Punishment than by Raskolnikov's crime."

I remember feeling that when reading Crime and Punishment, and it's also how I feel about The Iliad. I am much more taken by the beauty of the language and the pictures painted before my eyes than I am about the violence. It's like the art overwhelms the action.

Do you know what I mean?

Katleen, I am also surprised by feeling overwhelmed by the beauty and power of the language and imagery in the Iliad rather than the violence, as I vividly recall the nausea I felt when reading the gut-wrenching graphically violent tableau of the fights between the centaurs and Lapiths in Ovid's Metamorphoses last year, now seriously wondering and puzzled why I respond so differently to the Iliad, when the next skull or neck gets pierced by the brazen spear.

Kathleen wrote: "I am much more taken by the beauty of the language and the pictures painted before my eyes than I am about the violence. It's like the art overwhelms the action.

Do you know what I mean? ..."

I know exactly what you mean. And I feel the same way as you and Ilse. I am struck by the beauty of the language and by Homer's power of communicating the humanity of those operating in an inhumane situation.

I am currently reading The Life of Poetry by Muriel Rukeyser. The book is full of amazing gems and insights. Although it is hard to choose among these gems, I think what she says below is relevant to the discussion:

If our imaginative response to life were complete, if we were fully conscious of emotion, if we apprehended surely the relations that make us know the truth and the relations that make us know the beautiful, we would be--what? The heroes of our own myths, acting perfectly among these faculties, loving appropriately and living with appropriate risk, spring up at the question. We invented them to let us approach that life. But they remind us of our own lives. They offer us a hope and a perspective, not of the past in which they were made--not that alone--but of the future. For if we lived in full response to the earth, to each other, and to ourselves, we would not breathe a supernatural climate; we would be more human.

I have been feeling the same way as Kathleen and Ilse, and I think that is probably the primary change between the 20 year old me and the 69 year old me. Now I am able to appreciate the beauty, to separate it, in a sense, from the horror.

Tamara, I love the quote you provided as it seems to speak to so much more. I'm going to have to read it a few times, I think, to understand it fully.

I love that passage, Tamara. Like Sue, it will take re-reading and thinking to do it justice, but what a beautiful thought. I think it expresses the inspiration we take from art of all kinds.

Ilse, you've made me want to re-read Metamorphoses. I read it so long ago, and like you said, Sue, we can appreciate things much more when we're older. There is a good side to this aging stuff!

Kathleen, you are so right! I'm finding there are many advantages of age (which I believe were often recognized more by generations and cultures before us). Having the time to read and the life experience to read closely, in a different way is a gift and, for me, a blessing I try to enjoy every day. But I don't take it for granted. All the reading and discussions I have been involved with over my time here at Goodreads have really been helpful and led me in so many wonderful directions, such as this group.

I'm glad all of you seemed to enjoy the passage from Rukeyser. And I think you're right, Kathleen, when you say it expresses inspiration we take from art of all kinds.

Aging does have its benefits although sometimes it's hard to remember that when bones creak and joints hurt. But age brings with it life experiences that enrich everything we do, including how we read.

It also is a two-edged sword in some ways. As I age, I become increasingly conscious of time slipping away. But the irony is that since I retired a couple of years ago, I have more time to myself and for myself. I have time to write what I want and read what I want. I have time to savor the words I read and to read them in new ways--something I now realize I seldom did in my wild and woolly youth when I zoomed through life at the speed of light.

It is a trade off, to be sure, Tamara, as the arthritis continues to creep onward through my body, but I think I am happier for my mental and emotional maturity which allows more peace of mind and a better skill with my reading (especially since I'm addicted to my books)!

Sue wrote: "It is a trade off, to be sure, Tamara, as the arthritis continues to creep onward through my body, but I think I am happier for my mental and emotional maturity which allows more peace of mind and ..."

I agree completely.

Haaze wrote: "It is possible that this is posted elsewhere, but it could be of interest to the group. There is a relevant course just starting at edX.

https://www.edx.org/course/ancient-gr......"

I looked at these links. Indeed wonderful! Thanks for sharing :-)

Marcelita wrote: "Listen!
(Not sure this has been posted previously.)

BBC Radio 3 - Free Thinking, Landmark: The Odyssey
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09kqjc0"

Thanks for this, Marcelita. I will try to listen to it this afternoon.

Lisa wrote: "Margitte wrote: "I'm throwing in a suggestion for those who might be uber-enthusiastic and dedicated to out new adventure. :-))

I read a very interesting book Through the Language Glass: Why the W..."

Thanks, Lisa. Yes, Homer always intrigued me, even though I read him so long ago.

I am currently reading, in between, a great 'introduction' to Homer. The book is titled Why Homer matters by Adam Nicolson. I only just started, but it is one of those highly quotable books.

Quote from the book:
Epic, which was invented after memory and before history, occupies a third space in the human desire to connect the present to the past: it is the attempt to extend the qualities of memory over the reach of time embraced by history. Epic’s purpose is to make the distant past as immediate to us as our own lives, to make the great stories of long ago beautiful and painful now.

Another one from the foreword:
But as I read, a man in the middle of his life, I suddenly saw that this is not a poem about then and there, but now and here. The poem describes the inner geography of those who hear it. Every aspect of it is grand metaphor. Odysseus is not sailing on the Mediterranean but through the fears and desires of a man’s life. The gods are not distant creators but elements within us: their careless pitilessness, their flaky and transient interests, their indifference, their casual selfishness, their deceit, their earth-shaking footfalls.

Don't you just love it?! I'm so looking forward to finish this book.

Tamara wrote: "I am currently reading The Life of Poetry by Muriel Rukeyser. The book is full of amazing gems and insights. ..."

A profound quote, Tamara. Thanks for sharing.

Margitte wrote: "I am currently reading, in between, a great 'introduction' to Homer. The book is titled Why Homer matters by Adam Nicolson. I only just started, but it is one of those highly quotable books..."

Margitte, I read this last year. I enjoyed it immensely. I'm thinking of re-reading it because I suspect I will get more from it this time around. Thanks for the reminder.

Oh that is good news, Tamara. It is a slow read since we are so busy. But the tone of the text is just great. So glad we share this book.

Thanks for the reminder of Nicholson's book as well as the quotes, Margitte. I have it on the shelf and hope to start it after The Iliad.

Great point, Janet, So many versions and reflections on this greatest song and story. Homer himself writing a mythologized vision of history still in cultural memory 500 years before his time. This fresh reading of Homer sensitizes me so much to the infinite references and plays on these characters and their stories in our current stories and idioms built into our language.

Some remakes I don't know how to digest. What is just a replay and emphasis on old lessons learned about human nature, its high aspirations and deceptive means. A recent read of Joyce's "Ulysses" didn't inspire me over the links. The Atwood's "Penelopeiad" doesn't attract me (yet). Yet, I was impressed with the play of connections in Frazier's Civil War tale "Cold Mountain."

I also liked the play on Homer's tales in a thriller I just finished, Greeks Bearing Gifts. On the lighter side there is a lot of Chandleresque snappy dialogue alluding to heroes and gods relevant to Greece in the 50s and lessons on trust and deception in human relations. World War 2 is analogized to the Trojan War as one that will be remembered for the ages. On the darker side, the Holocaust history and crimes of greed by Nazis in Greece needs retelling or glossing by the FDR government of prime minister Adenauer in order to stay in NATO and get Greece into EEC precursor to the EU. The pursuit of Nazi gold from the Jews of Salonika is suggested as but one step beyond the incidental treachery, pillaging, and enslavement perpetrated by Odysseus on his long way back home. In this reflection, his lies employed by seeming necessity for his survival and goals becomes such a pattern for him, he can't help lying to Penelope when he gets home, and so most Germans have to bend their stories during the war. At least our German hero Bernie in Kerr's series is driven by motives for acts of atonement for collective guilt. (BTW: Phillip Kerr died recently, so this is his final book).

Speaking of remakes: very timely NYT profile on Madeline Miller and her latest book Circe, being released April 10: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/06/bo... The profile includes a quote from Emily Wilson.

Another case of fiction getting classical is some kind of return to The Trojan Women. Pat Barker, author of the Regeneration trilogy of a shrink and famous patients in WW1 will publish next month The Silence of the Girls. Tries to bring to life the stories of the wives, slaves, and prostitutes at home and at the war.

Thanks for the heads up, Michael. I've added it to my to-read list.