The Swerve discussion

This book follows the history of a poem, On the Nature of Things, written in ancient Rome by Lucretius and lost to the world until discovered in the 15th century.

Understandably, it had to be kept hidden from the Church for fear it would be suppressed and those in possession of it persecuted—just as they had been when it was written.

The poem was secretly copied and shared until making its way down to the Enlightenment, where it had a great influence on Thomas Jefferson among other great minds.

In captivating, easy-to-grasp style, Greenblatt expounds on the more salient points of the poem, which as its central theme holds that there is no world or existence beyond the physical universe.

I believe that the ideas Greenblatt explores through the poem are, for the most part, as valid today as they were in Lucretius’ time. This is among the most influential books I have ever read, which was about two years ago. I have felt a sense of liberation ever since.

It's a hell of a good book, although for me it was more about the way the Enlightenment changed the West than about the poem itself. It's also very good as history, but you would expect that from Greenblatt (his Will in the World is a book that I keep by me and reread before every visit to the RSC, which means five to six times a year).

Interesting to see our different takes as to what was the central focus of the book. I will make a point of reading it again with your point of view in mind. Thanks also for the reference to the other Greenblatt book. Will add it to my ever-growing 'want-to-read' list.

I agree with the points made above and really enjoyed the book. My only question is with the heading of the discussion. Why would this book turn you from an agnostic into an atheist? The church, as an institution, was behaving as it had long behaved. Poggio was a member of very secular Vatican supporting culture. What is surprising about that?

What I found most interesting about the book was that Poggio's story replicated the idea of the Swerve in Lucretius, which was the theoretical basis for permitting free will in the face of the determinism of natural laws. Poggio stumbled upon the poem and thus rescued it from the oblivion into which it would eventually have fallen. It is not often in history books that the same story gets to be told on multiple levels of analysis.

Marks54 wrote: "I agree with the points made above and really enjoyed the book. My only question is with the heading of the discussion. Why would this book turn you from an agnostic into an atheist? The church, ..."

Not sure I’m reading your question right, but my turning to atheism has nothing to do with Vatican policies of today or times past. By the time I read the book, I had been wrestling with the question of God’s existence for many years beyond the teachings of any one religion.

The Swerve, or rather Greenblatt’s presentation of Lucretius’ poem, articulated many of the issues I had on the matter and basically put them into a context with which I feel comfortable. At the risk of oversimplifying, for me it basically boils down to the idea that all religion is a fabrication of mankind with no divine purpose to our being; we are simply creatures of nature for whom “There is no ethical purpose higher than facilitating (the pursuit of happiness) for oneself and one’s fellow creatures.”

To me, Lucretius’ ideas are in stark opposition to those of any religion—not just Christianity. When I headed off the discussion that The Swerve turned me from being an agnostic to an atheist, it had nothing to do with the interests of the Vatican in suppressing the poem at the time. I would have come to the same conclusion had the Church, or any religious body for that matter, allowed its dissemination.

Thanks for the chance to clarify.

I get it. Thanks for clarifying.

Enjoyed this discussion - thanks to all of you. R.J., appreciated the mention of another Greenblatt book (Will in the World) and will put that on my to-read list.

Carolyn wrote: "Enjoyed this discussion - thanks to all of you. R.J., appreciated the mention of another Greenblatt book (Will in the World) and will put that on my to-read list."

Feel free to jump in anytime, Carolyn.

For the record, where I part from Lucretius’ beliefs is with his insistence that there is no afterlife. I know it sounds contradictory for a professed atheist to hold to such a concept, but I don't think the two have to be mutually exclusive. Will find out when the time comes, I guess--or not.

Fergus wrote: "This book follows the history of a poem, On the Nature of Things, written in ancient Rome by Lucretius and lost to the world until discovered in the 15th century.

Understandably, it had to be kep..."

I heartily agree with Fergus' review. This book reads like a mystery story and is filled with philosophical insights and historical revelations about the history of epicurean thought.