Kenyons Minions discussion
Chronicles of Nick
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Symbolism
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Bren wrote: "Yay! You made the thread."Yessss, I did!
Ok what IF the Usumgallu is based off of the seven deadly sins?Each general could represent a sin as the whole within the Usumgallu. Though because The Malachai is the embodiment of evil couldn't it be said that The Malachai embodies the 7 sins as well given he's the big baddie?
There are 6 members/generals with the Malachai being the head of the snake and making up the 7th member.
The seven deadly sins being:
Pride
Greed
Lust
Wrath
Gluttony
Envy
Sloth
Four of these generals were the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (Death (Grim), War (Laguerre), Pestilence (Bane), and Conquest (The Malachai)).
The other traditional generals were Xev, Livia, and Yrre.
Grim (Greed), Laguerre (Lust), Bane (Sloth), The Malachai (Pride)**.Xev (Wrath), Livia (Envy), Yrre (Gluttony)*.
*We don't really know that much about Yrre, but we know that she was in charge of the souls seeking vengeance as well as diseases.
**I'm not really sure about which labels regarding Grim, the Malachai, and Xev. Grim is certainly prideful--but so seems the full-blown Malachai attitude as well. Both the Malachai and Xev are wrathful (especially since we know that from his imprisonment--amongst other things, Xev didn't really care about the world, anyone, or even himself).
What does everyone on here think about it?
In the usumgallu, Yrre represented Fear. Don't remember where I saw that, but I do remember it.I don't think any of Adarian's generals were more greedy or lusty or slothful or prideful (etc.) than the other, or at least not to the point where one of those characteristics is somehow uniquely and immediately recognizable in one of them more than in the others. At least not that I'd notice.
I think it's interesting that Nick and Ash struck a deal that Ash couldn't kill Nick until he was no longer a pedestrian virgin...and then Nick ended up sleeping with Ash's daughter hours before Ash cursed him to suicide. Also, interestingly, Ash is the one that gave Nick a car. So, in essence, Ash (unintentionally) gave Nick what he needed to sow the seeds of his own destruction: Simi and a car. I don't think Nick was a virgin at that point, but it's still interesting to see that the broad sense of the deal they made, the two requirement were for Nick to have transportation and be sexually active within the next decade and not only did Ash give him the car, but he is also partly responsible for Nick's active sex life by making his own daughter aware of Nick (and doing so in a positive light).
Sounds like the sort of story you'd see in myths where the young mortal makes a deal with a god and the god tricks the mortal into breaking the deal. Only in DH, we have the perspective of the god and realise he's not vicious or has any ill will toward the mortal. He well-intentioned but flawed.
(I'm not gonna touch the whole timeline issues with this series, so I'm ignoring the part where Nick is required to be 24 in order for Ash to kill him. But arbitrary deadlines - whatever this one really turns out to be - are also a common feature in myths)
Marie wrote: "I think it's interesting that Nick and Ash struck a deal that Ash couldn't kill Nick until he was no longer a pedestrian virgin...and then Nick ended up sleeping with Ash's daughter hours before As..."So true! I never thought about how from a myth-perspective there's that deceit and trickery partaken in deals. And Nick can be seen to be tricked (intentionally or not) in multiple ways.
-There's that self-deceit/trickery by him pulling the wool over his own eyes when he drank that Lithe water to forget everything--including Simi.
-There's that self-fulfilling prophecy that basically is Nick as a whole regarding his actions. He inevitably thrust himself on that path of hatred (as all Malachai's do and are ruled by). Thus he abided by his deal with Ash straight towards his own destruction.
-He and Ash made that deal when Nick was 14 and still clueless about his own origins and the real supernatural world around him. Nick being ignorant still at that age can be attributed to purposeful deceit by Mennie--a goddess. So there's some very myth-like divine trickery right there.
-Nick made that deal with Artemis at 15 and Artemis per their bargain took some of Nick's blood; to which we still don't know what she did with it. Nick made that bargain then purposefully forgot about it. (Maybe after Nick forgot they made Artie forget too??.) Years later per Ash and Nick's bargain Nick is dead and Nick makes another deal with Artemis.
-In doing so, he inevitably breaks his promise to not commit suicide to Kody (via Infamous). Since he erased his memory and committed suicide--despite promising not too is self-trickery yet again.
-There's that unintentional self-deceit (that may or may not subconsciously have a tie-in with the playing out/manifestation of Nick's deal with Ash)by Ambrose telling himself that he's the end of all things. And with Nick forgetting all the CoN info he really did set himself up for a vicious cycle of deceit and trickery by himself and by those around him.
-Probably more examples that I can't think of right now.
Yeah, amnesia is also a recurrent pattern in myths. Or, rather, willful ignorance...Take Oedipus Rex for example. I read the play for a class and there is so much foreshadowing throughout, it's really impressive but one thing I found interesting is that the main character was adopted and his parents named him Oedipus because of how weird his foot was. The thing is that his foot was so weird because, as a baby, Oedipus had just spent days chained to a mountain where his biological mother left him to die and the chain did something to his foot.
The point is that, the secret to Oedipus' origins (what he's been seeking his whole life) was actually in his name. AND, another meaning for his name was something like "knowledge". (Given how much thought SK puts into choosing meaningful names for her character, that could also be said of Nick)
I mean, we know that it is totally unreasonable to expect Oedipus to gain some sort of instinctive knowledge of his origins by interpreting his name correctly. But a recurring theme throughout the play is that, even though Oedipus is given every hint of his origins possible, even though people keep telling him as much as they can, he will refuse to see the truth right before his eyes and his quest for knowledge, fed by his own hubris, is what leads to his downfall.
And now we've got Nick in DH who makes promises after promises and inadvertently breaks them, and he heads towards his own destruction because he is forced to forget over and over again the knowledge that would guide him on the right path. He is basically made blind to the truth, sometimes by other people but sometimes he does it to himself. His name basically says it all, but he still doesn't understand its significance.
Malachaibubble12 wrote: "Marie wrote: "I think it's interesting that Nick and Ash struck a deal that Ash couldn't kill Nick until he was no longer a pedestrian virgin...and then Nick ended up sleeping with Ash's daughter h..."Plus, there's those two curses (or partial curses?) that Ash puts out there. The one where he's talking about Cherise and increased daimon activity on Bourbon St. And when Ash tells Nick to kill himself to save him the trouble of doing it later.
Marie wrote: "Yeah, amnesia is also a recurrent pattern in myths. Or, rather, willful ignorance...Take Oedipus Rex for example. I read the play for a class and there is so much foreshadowing throughout, it's r..."
I've never read Oedipus Rex but it sounds really interesting...and frustrating.
SK did put that Moby Dick and Oedipus Rex parallel in Invincible as Caleb said.
(Ms. Richardson) "Then perhaps you'd like to give us your view of Ahab's need for vengeance?"
…
(Nick) "It was stupid."
"Stupid how?..."
Nick braced himself for her ridicule before he defended his position. "Well...he lets it ruin his life. He gets so obsessed with going after the one thing that hurt him that he loses sight of everything else. He becomes isolated from everyone and everything. Paranoid. He feels like he can't trust anyone around him ever. In the end, he loses everything, even his life. And for what? Total stupidity, if you ask me."
"So you're saying that if you were Ahab, you'd let it go and move on with your life? Even if it was the person you loved most on this earth who was killed and you were left with a lingering deformity from it?"
"Absolutely. Crap happens to everyone. Put on your big-boy pants and deal. You got to let it go and move on."
"Interesting idea. Naive and immature, but interesting." She looked at Caleb. "What about you, Mr. Malphas? Do you have anything to add to Mr. Gautier's ill-conceived opinion? What did you take out of the book, provided you actually read it instead of watching the movie like Ms. Harris did?"
"I see it as a parallel for Oedpus Rex."
"Intriguing. Do continue."
Caleb yawned before he answered. "Even though someone can see the course they're on and know their fate, they can't change or stop it. Prophecy is prophecy. Things happen that we can't control. It's when you try to prevent it that life really gets screwed up."
"Explain."
"Well, Ahab is told repeatedly by a variety of people that if he doesn't stop his obsessive quest, he'll die. Like Starbuck says, ''Tis an ill voyage! ill begun, ill continued; let me square the yards, while we may, old man, and make a fair wind of it homewards, to go on a better voyage than this." Caleb looked at Nick. "Ahab doesn't listen and dies because he's stupid."
Nick laughed.
…
Ignoring her, Nick wanted to know why Caleb had so obviously directed those last words to him. He might be a lot of things in life, but he'd never been an idiot. Especially not where his life were concerned. Obsession was not his thing. He believed in rolling with the punches...
Wait, did Caleb know about his wanting to go after Alan for shooting him?
Yeah, okay, so that wasn't so easy to let go. But the turd had shot him. Shot him. Would have killed him, too, without a second thought, had Kyrian not stopped him, and Alan would have beaten up two innocent older people. Someone needed to stop that animal. Going after Alan wasn't obsession. That was a public service.
The fact that Nick laughed tho...whew he's so stupid that he didn't even know that he was Oedipus AND Ahab. And sure he did learn not to get revenge on Alan...but still...he didn't listen to all the signs in the first place which created (DH) Ambrose then future Ambrose--who created CoN Nick. And CoN Nick created (DH) Ambrose by not listening. Cuz he's stupid like Caleb says. It's a cycle and Caleb is right when he talked about prophecy, fate, and that when you try to prevent things that's when life really gets screwed up.
I think SK really did put that character trait of Ahab and Oedipus straight into Nick and his own story. The fact that no one can get him to listen (not even his mother, his friends, anyone he is close to, and heck even HIMSELF (Ambrose)) or see reason. He just goes ahead towards his own destruction. Everyone did warn him and there were other warnings around him as well. He just never listened or paid them any attention. He didn't listen and the only one he really has to blame for it is himself. And we see in DH and older Ambrose that he does blame himself. But he also likes to outwardly blame others for his own faults. AKA it's the whale's fault even though I was in his territory the sea.
Man, I didn't even realise there was an Oedipus reference in CON. No wonder Nick and his story arc of fate/free will reminded me so much of the play. It's in moment like these that you can really tell how much research the author put into weaving this world of myths in her books. Even the stories of modern-day characters resemble that stories of mythological heroes, but it's not so in-your-face that you immediately think "she was clearly inspired by this".I need to read Moby Dick.
I'm not sure if we should discuss themes, symbolism, and patterns from the DH, Were-Hunter, etc books on this thread too, but we'll see. For the sake that it's in the CoN section let's discuss symbolism found in those books first and then branch out to DH little by little (or however this thread grows)! ;)