SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

This thread previously served as a buddy read, so you will see a few spoilers. There is no need to use spoiler tags for the full discussion of the group read.

Hello new readers!! Please note that after this post there are open spoilers until message 40.

Here's a link if you'd like to skip ahead:

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For those just joining, please tag all spoilers and indicate what chapter you're on so that we can follow along :) Thanks and enjoy!

I was happy to find out that my library has this in e-audio format, so I don’t HAVE to buy it. I plan on starting this buddy read on time for a change!

I just bought this for my real-life book club for our May read. I'd like to join the discussion as well.

Definitely planning to join. Trying to make progress on my *other* buddy reads too, as well as Underground Railroad before I get into this too. Too many good books to read!

I read this a couple of months ago but look forward to discussing it.

I think I'm going to read this with you guys. I've been wanting to, but I heard it's an emotionally hard read, so maybe it'll feel a bit easier in company. I need to finish my current reads first, but I think I'll be able to start in a few days or later this week.

I am reading An Unkindness of Ghosts right now. I get to do a buddy read!

I read The Underground Railroad a couple of years ago.

Both are really good books, but may I suggest that those of you who are reading An Unkindness of Ghosts immediately after The Underground Railroad put a puppies and sweetness short story in between, say a Connie Willis story about missed communication like Even the Queen: & Other Short Stories or Inside Job?

OK. Here we go! Starting the buddy read today. It's a 350 page book and I am setting out to read 50 pages a day, and be finished before the URR spoilers thread starts. You can, of course, read at whatever pace you choose. But I'd like to welcome late starters and allow people to miss days and still catch up. Please use spoiler brackets appropriately.



I think it's a wonderful cover, combining the face and a field of stars.

Part 1 Thermodynamics, Chapters I-III, page 47, 13%.

This is definitely in the form of a classic generation ship story. People living in a strangely warped society, with few clues as to how it works and how it got that way. So far, it does not seem much like the antebellum South, as advertised in the cover blurb. Hopefully, things will soon fit together, and the motivations will become clearer.

Julia wrote: "I am reading An Unkindness of Ghosts right now. I get to do a buddy read!

I read The Underground Railroad a couple of years ago.

Both are really good books, but may I suggest that those of you who are reading An Unkindness of Ghostsimmediately after The Underground Railroad put a puppies and sweetness short story in between..."

Thank you for this advice!

I am in the exact same part of the book as Tomislav. I have to agree, I am not getting antebellum south vibes. Despite that, it is still very interesting and there is still plenty of time for that vibe to develop. I love Aster! I also like the inclusion of non-binary gender references. This is my first generation ship story and so far it has every thing I was looking forward to!

I just finished chapter three as well. It’s got me hooked so far! I want to know more about Matilda’s history and about Aster, she’s interesting.

Meagan wrote: "I also like the inclusion of non-binary gender references." There seem to be non-binary pronouns in the language of one of the decks, and all-female pronouns in another. From that, I get that the populations of each deck must have been isolated from each other for a long time.

Ashley wrote: "I want to know more about Matilda’s history and about Aster, she’s interesting." I agree; Aster is a good POV character. But Giselle seems kind of flaky.

Julia wrote: "Both are really good books, but may I suggest that those of you who are reading An Unkindness of Ghosts immediately after The Underground Railroad put a puppies and sweetness short story in between..." I read Colson Whitehead's The Intuitionist in between. It's serious and a little wacky at the same time.

Part I Thermodynamics, Chapters IV-VI, page 95, 27%.

Well a lot more about Aster, Giselle, Theo, and Lune, and about the culture of the ship itself. I'm struggling to understand the geometry of the overall ship. The field decks that move spherically around the nuclear "Baby", seem clear if overly ponderous. But how does this structure relate to the residential decks A-Z?

I have to say I'm not used to reading on a schedule like this. But it's my first buddy read and I'm kind of making the process up. I've committed to the published schedule though, so consider it an experiment. Soon, we may have to haul out the spoiler brackets for the sake of people not reading in synch.

Part II Metallurgy, Chapters VII-XI, page 154, 44%.

(view spoiler)[Two things I noticed; I'm sure everyone else did too.

1) Aster was raised by Aint Melusine. Theo was raised by Ms. Melusine. But Aster and Theo have not known each other their whole lives. It is a direct connection from top to bottom of society. Who is Melusine???

2) The disaster happened 70 years into the voyage (p19). The disaster was 255 years ago (p151). Total duration: 325 years.

(hide spoiler)]

Part II Metallurgy, Chapters XII-XIV, page 205, 59%.

I am still only in the middle of chapter 5. I’ll unfortunately be behind only because I’m listening to it and I don’t have as many good opportunities to concentrate on audio books as I do my other books. But I am really enjoying it! Aster is a badass!

Tomislav wrote: "I'm struggling to understand the geometry of the overall ship. The field decks that move spherically around the nuclear "Baby", seem clear if overly ponderous. But how does this structure relate to the residential decks A-Z?"

I’m also wondering what exactly the ship looks like, inside and out. The rotating fields/spheres are fascinating! That’s the part I’m at now, actually. As much as I’d love to go into space, it really freaks me out to think of being on a ship like this, out in space for so long and having to get used to living that way indefinitely...especially in situations described like that! (view spoiler)[like when she talked about how they have to get used to their orientation changing...I can imagine lots and lots of nausea. (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[I’m really intrigued by her mother’s notes and the way she’s encoded everything! (hide spoiler)]

I'm kind of in the middle of the book (60%), so it is an awkward place, with regard to spoilers. You should not read the spoiler below if you have not read the book. And you should probably also not read it until you reach the same point. I am having a few issues with the book, but it is possible they will be resolved in the remaining 40%. If that is the case, please do not inform me until I finish the book. This is just kind of where my mind is at, at this point, and I may have to eat my words later. :)

(view spoiler)[

1. This setting does not resemble antebellum South. The economy of the US South before the Civil War was based on chattel slavery, meaning the owning of one person by another individual person. The Matilda is more like a forced labor camp or colonialism. Racism is at the core of it, but it is not that kind of slavery. Probably we should hold the publisher accountable for this, rather than the author. Nowhere in the text does it claim to be antebellum South (so far).

2. Gravity on board the Matilda is a problem. I don't think there is artificial gravity, as for example, the gravitation does not fail during the black-outs. If gravity is generated by continuous acceleration, you get flat decks one above the other. Or, if as is more common in generation ship stories, gravity is generated by the centrifugal force of a spin, you get a cylinder with decks circling the axis of rotation. Spherically arranged farm fields make no sense.

3. Where are the male slaves? I think if there were male slaves, there would be the potential for much more conflict with the guards. The story seems to switch between a racial dystopia and a gender dystopia. Is it somehow both?

(hide spoiler)]

I finished the book a few days ago. I'll see if I can answer questions without spoiling much.

Tomislav asked: 1) Aster was raised by Aint Melusine. Theo was raised by Ms. Melusine. But Aster and Theo have not known each other their whole lives. It is a direct connection from top to bottom of society. Who is Melusine???

(view spoiler)[Aint Melusine raised Theo as her job and Aster as her neighbor's daughter. She taught each of them a bit about healing, right? Older women raising children is what happened on plantations, probably Reconstruction, and afterward in the Jim Crow era. Aster and Theo did not know each other as children, because he was raised on the highest decks, and she was raised on the lowest decks. They knew each other as teens, when their talents as doctors/ healers came out. As for who she is, Melusine is a classic fairy tale character name. Is she a swan princess in the story? Names are important in this story, Aster & Lune's, Theo choosing his own. Historically, owners named slaves. Did Melusine name herself? (hide spoiler)]

I'll give you Tomislav that this is more like modern debt slavery, or the prison industrial complex, based on skin color, opportunity and racism, than the anti-bellum south. What the blurbs on the book say it the publisher's responsibility, but that said, I've returned the copy I read to the library.

In my memory it tries to tell readers what the book is about with Tananarive Due's blurb comparing it to Octavia E. Butler, Samuel R. Delany and who was the third author? But now that I'm writing this, I bet there was another blurb describing this book. So sf readers would think of Kindred and Dhalgren.

(view spoiler)[3. My opinion is that some of the men are guards. I think many are aborted, or never make it to adulthood. Perhaps more underclass men are on other decks? We are never told. (hide spoiler)]

Does anyone else read Aster as on the autism spectrum?

Julia wrote: "Does anyone else read Aster as on the autism spectrum?"

Yes. Absolutely.

Julia wrote: "What the blurbs on the book say it the publisher's responsibility, but that said, I've returned the copy I read to the library."

The back cover of my library paperback says "Aster lives in the lowdeck slums of the HSS Matilda, a space vessel organized much like the antebellum South." This isn't from one of the quotes by Tananarive Due or Victor LaValle; it is the publisher's description of the story.

Part III Phylogeny, Chapters XV-XIX, page 250, 72%.

Please be careful with spoilers.

Part III Phylogeny, Chapters XX-XXIV, page 299, 86%.

Actually, I just went ahead and finished the book, and I suspect you will too when you get to this point, if you haven't already.

TOMORROW, we will open the thread for spoilerish discussion, as per the official schedule. Not yet.

Isn't it just one thread per buddy read?

I just finished. I don't have much to say. I hate reading books like this, but it's not the book's fault. I just don't enjoy reading about people suffering. This was a tough one.

Part IV Astromatics, Chapters XXV-XXVIII, page 349, 100%.

This completes the initial buddy read. From this post onward, the thread is open up for spoilerish discussion. If you are reading this thread at some later date, and wish to avoid spoilers, then do not open the spoiler tags above, and do not read beyond this post.

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Well, what did you think?

Since this also happens to be Mother's Day here in the US, I thought I would mention how I noticed the passage where Ainy Melusine is taking care of the sick child Abe (Chapter XVII). Even while soothing the child's pain and sickness, she refuses to let him know her as "Meema", distances herself emotionally, and has quite a sarcastic attitude towards the child's mother and her Salon. This is the same woman who raised Aster, Giselle, Theo (her own biological child with the prior sovereign, who had been taken from her), and many others, with perhaps different feelings. Some very complex things going on there, and I'm wondering what you think of it.

I read a lot of fiction about slavery. In fact, while I reading this my RL book club was discussing The Pox Party and The Kingdom on the Waves, which is science fiction-y as it is an account of a fictional African boy and young man raised as a science experiment during the American Revolution about the capacity for slaves to learn: in his case, Latin, Greek, the violin and other classical instruments, advanced math and science.

As for your questions about mothers and child-raising on the Matilda, from everything I've read and seen historically, it was fraught, at best. Of course you love your children, but when you or they can be taken from you for anything or nothing, there may be distance.

I just finished reading and I'm a bit disappointed. I think the book would have benefited from having a map of the ship, detailing the layout of the different sectors and how they were oriented. I had a hard time imagining the setting and how the characters were moving throughout the ship which pulled me out of the story often. The story itself was ok, but nothing that really excited me and kept me engaged. The book i believe is putting forth very serious topics using a platform that is highly accessible. I appreciate what the author is trying to do in that respect. Does it lend itself to be an enjoyable read? In my case, not so much, but i can see how a lot of people would enjoy this book and the potential discussions to had.

I struggled with the layout of the ship for most of the book. But by the end I came to the conclusion that aspects of it simply don't work.

The characters live in Earth-like gravity. I don't think there is artificial gravity on board the Matilda, because for example, the gravitation does not fail during the black-outs. So, I think it must be generated by some sort of acceleration. But if the gravity comes from linear acceleration (like forward propulsion), you would get flat decks one above the other. Decks A-Z seem to be like that. But, if the gravity comes from the centrifugal force of a spin, you get a cylinder with decks circling the axis of rotation. Spherically arranged farm fields make no sense. And the geared mechanical motion of those fields in spherical directions around the Baby Sun to manipulate amount of sunlight, when filters would suffice, is preposterous.

Another concept I had problems with was the black-outs caused by power drains to electromagnets, which were used for course adjustments. Electromagnetic propulsion is actually used in Earth-orbiting satellites, and is highly attractive because of its efficiency, and because it involves no consumption of matter from the spacecraft. However, there is no such thing as a free lunch; this only works because it has the Earth’s magnetic field to push against. There is no such magnetic field in deep space. So, when Lune went outside to repair the 230 year old ship's damage, this was the only time she could have hijacked navigation control near the black hole within its very local magnetic field. And then she programmed the Matilda to do the same thing again precisely when it returned to Earth’s magnetic field 25 years later. Are we supposed to believe that no one except Aster ever noticed this?

But I should also mention what I liked about the novel.

The primary POV character is Aster, a young woman of the lower decks (the slave class), but who has a professional connection to the ship’s Surgeon General (Theo). Aster is brilliant; she has taught herself languages, medicine and physics, but suffers from a strong form of autistic spectrum disorder. She needs others to explain expected social interaction, as she has no instinct for it, and makes terrible mistakes. Her roommate, Giselle, suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder, and acts with an utter lack of impulse control. Most of Solomon’s characters are examples of abnormal psychological conditions – and in that their writing reminds me of C.J. Cherryh. I find those characters fascinating and probably difficult to write. Of particular interest is whether there is any residual capacity for Aster and Giselle, or Aster and Theo to have feelings for one another.

Sorry I'm so behind on posting here, y'all. I appreciate all your scientific explanations Tomislav! I too had a hard time grasping how everything worked on the ship - I knew something wasn't clicking! But I did enjoy this a lot, especially Aster's character. I love Aster! I love her no-nonsense attitude. I loved how the whole mystery unfolded and the feeling of Aster's mother's presence throughout. I also liked the ending - for some reason I like sci-fi books that make you wonder at the end what may happen next. Although I would read a sequel if there was one. I want to know more about this society and how it came to be this way. Maybe a prequel would be nice.

Yes, I agree that a lot is left unexplained about the origins of this society. For example, was it set up that way at launch - or did it evolve after the accident and how? It seems unlikely to me that the designers of a generation ship and its society would include a dependence on large scale manual labor in any form, when technology is available. A prequel would definitely have to deal with that.

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Welcome new buddy readers. The beginning of the thread is mostly safe to read, and there is a clear warning when the open spoilers start. There are some mild open spoilers before that, so skip the earlier posts altogether if you don't want to know anything.

I forgot we'd done this! Thanks, Anna.

Yippiiieh! Here we go :). I may need some correction with the names, Allison, cause I'm listening to the novel and don't want to look up the names to not get accidently spoiled.

Part I (Chapter 6): (view spoiler)[I liked the way the story went into medias res - even though I felt a bit sick while imagining the surgery. An inhuman two class system (at least … don't know, if there will be further differentiations) on a generation ship prone for an uproar is an interesting basis for a plot.

Aster came across quite interesting as a character, even more so Giselle (? spelled), who reminded me a bit of Calamity from Dreadnought. The way she understood the diary of Aster's mother was great. It made for a good WTF! moment for me.

And now the mystery unfolds, which has me at the edge of the seat, cause I love a well plotted mystery (and I hope this will be well plotted! I want to be surprised!)

I dig the hints at gender diversity and I'm curious to learn to know why so far none of the working class seems to be male.

Ah, yes, and Theo (? spelled?) intrigues me as well. (hide spoiler)]

I was moved by Chapter 7
(view spoiler)[Loved the fact that the POV changed to Theo. The light shed on his (her, their … how do I choose the correct pronoun for Theo?) past was intriguing. "I have done at least one good thing: become a person my father would hate." This reminded me so much of Dreadnought. The misery, the (hopeless?) love for Aster … and then the scene with the altar, wow! So touching. I listened to this chapter twice, cause I loved it so much.

And just a wild guess: cause I'm rooting so much for this doomed character, Theo won't survive the book. (hide spoiler)]

Just finished Ch 6

(view spoiler)[ Agreed, I hope this is a good mystery! So far we've had lots of hints of pieces I can't wait to put together. It's very difficult to read though. I'm glad Solomonn is sort of skating past naming the worst of the abuses--the steps Aster takes to protect herself are horrific.

I too can't wait to learn if gender is a construct of what deck you're born to (like Flick's deck uses "they") or if they purposefully restrict procreation belowdecks to children with uteruses.

Also, I very much hope that by the time we can move thousands of people at a time through space we discover a much better way of constructing society than abuse. (hide spoiler)]

ETA your spellings are all correct, Gabi! How's the narrator?

The narrator is ...well … okay..ish … ^^' The timbre sounds a bit slurred and artificial (like with the narrator for Dreadnought), so I have to speed up a bit (1.25).


Allison, Ch. 6 (view spoiler)[I dearly hope that humankind will not execute such a master-and-slave society like it is depicted in this novel! As a thought model, though, it is interesting to read.
Yes, I, too, am very relieved that the abuse so far is not graphically written. It's worse enough, what's in our heads, I don't need this in letters (or spoken words in my case) (hide spoiler)]

Chapters 8 and 9

(view spoiler)[I really like the disturbing tone (or is this tune? My dictionary gives me both options) of the story. There is so much oppression going on, so much danger within the wrong word, the wrong gesture - and still Aster is so proud and has such a self assured attitude. I admire her. I loved the "She didn't have time for the ship's Samanthas" scene. This showed vividly how fragile the society on board is, and how little Aster cares. I'm preparing for doom, yet I'm somehow looking forward to it (I hope, I don't sound too morbid, but this really fascinates me. I read somewhere that Solomon was compared with Butler - so far I can see why. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 14

(view spoiler)[ I'm trying to defend myself from impending hurt, so I'm not as invested as I would likely be otherwise. I'm enjoying things coming together and falling apart. The pacing seems a bit off, though. For example Chapter 14...what did it tell us that we couldn't have guessed or put together otherwise? It felt very out of place for me. (hide spoiler)]

Allison wrote: "Chapter 14

[spoilers removed]"

I can see, why you are feeling like this. Admittedly it's an easier read for me, cause I'm not very sensitive.
(view spoiler)[ For me this chapter was foremost about the relationship of Aster and Giselle, about the fragility of their bond. I had a similiar development phase with my sister, so parts sounded eeriely familiar for me.
Yet I'm with you, that the pace is stalling with those kind of chapters. The build up for the mystery was quite strong in the first part of the novel and now it is sneaking along.
(hide spoiler)]

Finished Chapter 18

(view spoiler)[
Heartwrenching and awful, of course. But I'm having a hard time weaving it into the narrative. We basically just stopped the mystery to deal with the awful things on ship for about 5 chapters. Now we've soooort of picked the mystery up but not without a quick reminder that she's powerless (questionable) and that gay men can be awful too? I am very confused what I'm supposed to be learning in terms of the story right now. Even the way Cassidy was treated and treats Aster. I get the social message but I'm not sure what it's added to this book.

I'm hoping we get back to the mystery in full force soon. I feel we've lingered over long on the horrors of class systems. While I'm in agreement that it's awful and we shouldn't forget how awful it was and continues to be, it's beginning to feel like the author wants me, personally, to have my nose rubbed in it and to deal with the hurt, rather than go along with a character navigating a world that wants to hurt her. I find the latter both more honest and more likely to engage my empathy. Right now I'm feeling a bit like I'm under siege even though I haven't done anything, and I don't like that.

I am enjoying a lot of the discussion around gender though, and different ways we deal with trauma/the fact that we're social creatures even when things break our ability to respond socially. (hide spoiler)]

This thread previously served as a buddy read, so you will see a few spoilers. There is no need to use spoiler tags for the full discussion of the group read.

Some questions to start us off if you want some ideas!

1. What did you think of the setting and world?
2. What did you think of the mystery?
3. What did you think of the characters?
4. What do you think the major takeaway is?

Chapter 17
I DONT KNOW HOW TO PUT THE SPOILER THING IN!
SPOILERS
Im so happy i have finally found a character who doesnt like children the same way i do. I can put up with them but i dont enjoy being in tjeir presence.
Also this amazing passage
"Poor, poor books. Lonely pages bound in lonely leather, their only company the occasional louse. They exist only to be read, and yet with no one there to read them, they might as well not have been bornt at all."

Once i finish the book I'll answer the prompt questions

Lauren, that's fine! This used to be a buddy read thread, which is why there are tagged spoilers. Now it's been converted into a spoiler thread, so no more tags needed!

But for the future, here's how to use spoiler tags:

(view spoiler)[ (hide spoiler)]

Click on "(some html is ok)" in the top right corner of the text box (on desktop version) as you're typing your post to copy/paste the code. Or go to this help page if you're not on the desktop version.

I received my copy of this book from PageHabit (I only did one month and I got this!) and it comes with a letter from Rivers Solomon and post-it’s with a little tidbit or comment sprinkled throughout the book. If it’s ok, I’ll transcribe them here with a note of where they were put in.

Chapter 2 p. 20

The hormonal disturbances of the Tarlanders called “hereditary suprarenal dysregula” is explained. Rivers Solomon writes:

“This could really happen! In the Dominican Republic, for example, frequency of certain genes leads to a high rate of intersex traits.”