SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Hello all!

This is the synergistic convergence of both a scheduled buddy read and the selection for the October Inclusive Book Bingo challenge (trans author/character)!

Of course, you do not need to be playing IBB to join in.

Please tag all spoilers and include the chapter number so we can discuss this book together!

I'll be lurking a bit here, to see what folks think. Cause I'm not sure If I pick it up (read superhero and heard YA, which both isn't my cup of tea)

I'm 14 chapters in and having a blast. Superhero narratives seem like they're always about wish fulfillment, and to filter that drive through transgender longing and identity seems like an ideal fit. I'm loving Danny as a narrator and protagonist; she's thoughtful and sharp and willing to rethink and correct her analysis of a situation even in mid-paragraph. And while, yes, there some of the angst we associate with YA, in Danny's case, I actually feel like she deserves to express way more angst than she is in fact expressing.

Ummmm so I kind of read 90% of this book last night (and this morning) and ended up staying up way too late, but just couldn't power through the last bit. I had been wanting to read it for a while, and have had the physical copy from the library staring at me for the last couple weeks.

I was trying to pace myself for the buddy read here, but it's a short book, I love superhero fiction, and the transgender element brought something different that I hadn't read about in a main character before. Those things combined meant that I couldn't put it down.

Bobby wrote: "Ummmm so I kind of read 90% of this book last night (and this morning) and ended up staying up way too late..."

LOL. I fully understand the impulse. This book definitely grabs hold! I'm trying to think back on my reading, and I'm pretty sure this is the first superhero fiction I've ever read. Superhero comics and superhero films, sure, but never before superhero fiction.

My only real comparison so far will be Strong Female Protagonist. Book One which I read as webcomics. It's pretty strong on the social discussions, so I'll be curious how this compares! It should be in this week for me :)

I'll have to start in on the audio for this once I finish my current listen. Hopefully by then end of the week, if not sooner.

Started yesterday. I'm not as speedy as others, but I agree that it's a lot of fun. I also was a little worried about the YA-ness might bug me, but it hasn't felt annoying at all. Excited to read more!

I finished and loved it, but before I discuss, I'll go into some content warnings. There won't be spoilers of the story or anything, but I will put it in tags in case people don't want any kind of spoiler. (view spoiler)[Transphobia, death, and violence. There are scenes of people dying and being maimed or badly injured, some of them detailed, but nothing gratuitous. (hide spoiler)].

Despite my intentions to do like a normal buddy read and post my thoughts as I go, I ended up reading most of it Sunday night/Monday morning, and the rest of it last night. So I'll just post some final thoughts in spoiler tags now, and then discuss with others as they read it.

Spoilers for the entire book ahead. (view spoiler)[I'm a big fan of superhero fiction, so there was a good chance I was going to like this, and it did not disappoint. I think the author did a great job of intertwining a coming of age story of a trans teen with a classic superhero origin story.

Another thing that was really well done was the characters. I loved Danny, Doc Impossible, and Sarah, but even the ones that I absolutely hated were written to be hated. The transphobic characters are so real that sadly they are probably based off of first hand experience. I was so mad when Greywytch came out unharmed when all of the other heroes were injured or killed.

It took a while for the big action to come, but when it did, it came in spades. I was highly entertained during the battle with the mechas. That is what super powered fights should look like. I also like that Dreadnought isn't invincible. There was actual legitimate danger here that she could have died, and she had to use her brain to win. She is definitely extremely powerful, but not to the point where nothing can stop her.

I will absolutely be reading the next one, and then waiting impatiently for the 3rd. (hide spoiler)]

Thanks for the content warnings, Bobby! So excited that you loved it.

Through Ch. 17

(view spoiler)[So, in fact, I'm much further along that ch. 17 and really, really loving this book, which means I feel a wee bit petty registering these complaints, but . . .

I was underwhelmed by Danielle's first two feats of superheroism. The saving of the airline felt too convenient. How often to commercial airplanes in the U.S. actually crash? And for her to be right there!??? Then for the second to be protecting private property in an impoverished neighborhood. I dunno. Danielle, aren't you cut out for better things? I warned you: petty.

From this point forward, all the good... (hide spoiler)]

I started this last night, but I'm not very far in. I like the voice of the MC, though.

colleen the convivial curmudgeon wrote: "I started this last night, but I'm not very far in. I like the voice of the MC, though."

I can't wait to hear what you think.

Bobby wrote: "Spoilers for the entire book ahead. "

(view spoiler)[I agree wholeheartedly with all of your comments. As I said above, this is my first superhero fiction, and I was surprised by how much I enjoyed it, particularly as a deep and compelling origin story.

I also agree that this is one where the fact that it's an own-voices narrative adds to both the poignancy and the authenticity of the characters. I could hear and see the faces/voices of the transphobia. I'm not trans, but I'm also the kind of gay guy who is too femme to pass, so much of my own experience with "homo"phobia has had a wide overlap with transphobia and come more in the form of gender-policing that sexuality-policing. I really appreciated how the author interrogated the intermixing of the two (e.g. when Danny's dad called her a "faggot").

As a superhero-fiction newbie I was also surprised by how much I enjoyed the big action sequence at the end. It's a scene I knew to expect, and I fully thought it would be less satisfying on the page than it is on the screen. I was so wrong! What a thrilling couple of chapters those were. (hide spoiler)]

Really looking forward to hearing what others think about this one, and I plan to read #2 as soon as it comes in at the library.

I just realized this is Dreadnought not Dreadnought.

Travis, I'm so glad you liked this book, and your foray into superhero fiction. I'll respond to your spoilers in tags below.

(view spoiler)[As much as I don't like seeing transphobia/homophobia, I think it really elevated the story by making the characters feel real. Well as real as you can make someone who lifts airplanes and is only mildly stung by a bullet to the face. Danny's insecurity even while she was doing amazing things just made her so real. I was glad to see she was starting to believe in herself near the end, and I hope that continues into the next book. (hide spoiler)]

In case anyone is interested in reading more fiction about people with super powers, the most famous example I can think of is The Reckoners trilogy by Brandon Sanderson. The first book is Steelheart. The kindle version of the whole trilogy is currently on sale from Amazon U.S. for $1.99 each.

lol Trike. Wee bit different.

Bobby wrote: "In case anyone is interested in reading more fiction about people with super powers, the most famous example I can think of is The Reckoners trilogy by Brandon Sanderson."

I have a list of superhero books I’ve read: https://www.goodreads.com/review/list...

I don’t read novelizations of comic book characters like the ones from Marvel and DC, as I prefer original creations.

Allison wrote: "lol Trike. Wee bit different."


Thankfully...

(Not a fan of Boneshaker, here... )

How superhero is this superhero novel? Those who've already finished it, would you say it is for somebody who doesn't like superhero stories? (Not in comics, not in movies, not in novels)

Gabi wrote: "How superhero is this superhero novel? Those who've already finished it, would you say it is for somebody who doesn't like superhero stories? (Not in comics, not in movies, not in novels)"

It's pretty dang superhero, but also there's a ton of other stuff happening as well. I'm not someone who gravitates toward superhero narratives, and I enjoyed this novel tremendously.

I'm up to chapter 7 and enjoying it a lot. I don't read a ton of superhero fiction, either comics or novels, but so far this is really working for me.

Thanks Travis and Kaa. I just decided to use my audible credit for it (although the narrator takes some getting used to).

Gabi wrote: "Thanks Travis and Kaa. I just decided to use my audible credit for it (although the narrator takes some getting used to)."

I hope it ends up being worth it!

Looks like something I might enjoy. Might have to go on a Dreadnaught Hunt....

Ok... this is cute so far. I like her so much and I just met her!

I'm on Ch 22 now. I agree with Bobby and Travis that this book is hard to put down. I keep sitting down to read "just one more chapter" and going through five or six instead.

@Gabi: There's been a little of the kind of superhero stuff I don't enjoy, but overall the story is still very character-focused, and Danny is a great character. I do hope you enjoy it!

Travis wrote: "Through Ch. 17

[spoiler removed]"

(view spoiler)[The plane thing didn't bother me so much, although it did seem pretty unlikely. But the liquor store "rescue" hit a lot of the things that often bother me in superhero books, related to the implied causes and solutions for violent crime - especially, as Travis said, property crime in impoverished neighborhoods.

On the other hand, I'm really enjoying the tension between the Legion/whitecapes on one side and Calamity/greycapes on the other, and the opportunity this provides to re-examine some typical superhero tropes and assumptions. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 3: (view spoiler)[ the shopping scene was super cute! Made me feel all warm and fuzzy. (hide spoiler)]


Add:

Chapter 10: (view spoiler)[ The verbal abuse of the parents was heartwrenching. I don't even want to imagine parents, who are so unsupportive towards their children. Gets me each time.
The superhero parts with the airplane, however, did not much for me (like I feared). (hide spoiler)]

Just finished, and I really liked it. I'll be reading the second book as soon as I can get it from the library. Y'all want to do a buddy read for that one too?

@Allison: I haven't read Strong Female Protagonist, but I felt that this book did a great job on social discussions, so I hope you continue to enjoy it.

(spoilers for the whole book - my thoughts + responses to Bobby and Travis): (view spoiler)[I always wonder how trans people fit into magical transformation narratives, so it was really awesome to get to see that story, especially told by a trans author. Danny's journey toward self-confidence was wonderful.

Overall, I agree with both Travis and Bobby's comments. The transphobia and homophobia were rough but felt very real - again, I'm cis, but pretty much every awful transphobic thing that is done or said to Danny is something that has happened to people I know. On a related note, I wonder if the choice to make Greywytch a witch was intentional to highlight the TERF-y strain of "the female is divine" paganism/Wicca in real life?

I liked many of the characters a lot, but other than Danny, Sarah/Calamity was my favorite. I thought the issue of human experimentation was an interesting one to bring in, although I was a bit iffy about the direction the author decided to take Sarah's dad's narrative - in general I am suspicious of law and order narratives that paint people of color/poor people/queer people/etc standing up against imperialism/racism/oppression as bad and wrong and the "crossing the line". And then it felt as though this thread was dropped without any real resolution. Maybe this will become significant in the next book?

Although I was underwhelmed by some of the build-up action, I felt that the superhero sequences improved as the book went on. Not because Danny became a better superhero, but because the scenes became more interesting and relevant to the story. Like Travis, I was surprised by how much I liked the final action sequence. I often find myself skimming over fight scenes in other books, but this one was vivid and exciting. (hide spoiler)]

Another series with queer teen superheros that I enjoyed is Not Your Sidekick, for anyone looking for more like this - the protagonist of the second book is trans.

Kaa wrote: "Just finished, and I really liked it. I'll be reading the second book as soon as I can get it from the library. Y'all want to do a buddy read for that one too?

@Allison: I haven't read Strong Fema..."

I'm glad you liked it! I actually just picked up the second one from the library yesterday. I would love to do a buddy read of that too.

Bobby, you can totally talk about the second book in this thread, just make sure you mark the spoilers with both book name and chapter number.

Kaa wrote: "spoilers for the whole book [Dreadnought] - my thoughts"

(view spoiler)[Absolutely agree that the witch/TERF angle was about that aspect of second-wave feminism.

I somehow forgot all about the side plot related to Sarah's dad. You're so right. I really hope the next book picks it back up and does more interesting things with his story. (hide spoiler)]

Anna wrote: "Bobby, you can totally talk about the second book in this thread, just make sure you mark the spoilers with both book name and chapter number."

I've got the second book on hold and am next in line so it shouldn't be too long until I start.

Through Ch 4

Kaa, I'm in agreement! So far the social issues seem very believable. Gabi, I enjoyed that seen, too. I got a little misty. And I am devastated by (view spoiler)[ how her dad wants to be supportive, but only on his own terms. A subtle, heartbreaking look at the way toxic masculinity spreads hurt. (hide spoiler)]

I haven’t read the book but read a fascinating negative review which maybe I’ll put over to mess up your discussion?? 😁

I'm in the last 25% of this, I think...

It's been very slow going for me. Partially because my usual reading time has been curtailed lately, but partially because it's just not grabbing me as a "must finish reading" kind of thing.

Which isn't to say I'm not enjoying it, because I am, but I'm just not blown away by it.

I have enjoyed the character development and the dealing with family and social issues. Those have been the strongest parts of the book - but I also feel like they're sort of repetitive. Which, ya know, life would be... but there's a part of me that just wants to get to the story... which is weird because I'm usually more a character-focused reader...

Rachel wrote: "I haven’t read the book but read a fascinating negative review which maybe I’ll put over to mess up your discussion?? 😁"

Please do!

So, I was just reading a 2-star review that might hit on why I'm not gelling with this story even though it's character-oriented and I normally go for that kind of stories -

That is to say (view spoiler)[it's not really character oriented because all of the characters are rather flat stand-ins for tropes and/or mouthpieces for specific prejudices that a trans person encounters in their lives and dealing with coming out.

We don't even know much about Danny aside from the fact that a) she's trans with terrible parents and b) she wants to help people who are bullied and c) she has a kind of black/white moral view that she doesn't always practice.

We don't really know anything else about her. We know her father tried to make her into "a man" and tried to force her into "boy things" like sports (because girls never play sports, obviously) - but we don't really know what she is into. (hide spoiler)]

So, yeah... I think that's my issue right now, and the fact that the "superhero" part of the story is kind of weak at this point.

I'm chapter 17 now. And although the book is nice, I catch myself ever so often spacing out while listening. I put this down to me not liking superhero stories in general.

colleen the convivial curmudgeon wrote: "That is to say (view spoiler)"

(view spoiler)[Your point absolutely makes sense to me. At the same time, I think Danny at one point explains her own absence of greater depth when she talks about all the different sorts of experience she was denied by virtue of being both closeted and transgender. That sort of experiential gap -- and the sorts of ways it can manifest in people -- made sense to me as a reader and ended up adding to my appreciation of her characterization. (hide spoiler)]

Question for chapter 18: (view spoiler)[Can be, that I didn't get it right, cause I'm still spacing in and out while listening (the narrator's timbre sounds so "artifical"): Did Danny just decide to not tell the legion about the finding of the deadly weapon, cause she fears their disapproval? (hide spoiler)]

Lol Gabi

(view spoiler)[ Yes, she thought that since they said no investigations, and they already knew that Utopia was strong enough to take out Dreadnought, better not tell them and risk getting in trouble with everyone. It does feel a liiiittle contrived to me, but also makes sense for a teen undergoing second puberty who's used to being yelled at constantly, so I'm gonna go with it for now. (hide spoiler)]

:D Thanks a lot, Allison! This felt so weird, that I thought, I missed something.

Gabi wrote: "Question for chapter 18: [spoilers removed]"

Related more to your zoning out...

I also zoned out, while reading, and I started skimming the more actiony bits. They just didn't hold my attention... so I wonder how much is the narrator and how much is the writing style.

Chapter 24: (view spoiler)[ The buying-makeup-scene was funny. I never wore make up, so I hadn't the slightest idea, what they were talking about. Knew exactly how Danny felt :). (hide spoiler)]

@Colleen: oh, the correct phrase is "zoning out". Thanks a lot, I try to remember that. Yup, and I'm the same with the action scenes, but I feel a bit bad about that, cause after all this is a superhero book, so of course there have to be superhero scenes.

It's my understanding that most beloved superhero stories are not so much about action and saving the world as contemplating power, ethics, and humanity. So it's cool if you space out on the fighty bits IMO ;-)

(Also, I'd like to plug Strong Female Protagonist Book 1 at least. It sort of goes off the rails at a certain point but my goodness the ideas initially are really powerful. And all the action bits are either really cathartic so you're cheering along or are made to feel viscerally uncomfortable.)

I loved the action bits, but I've already mentioned that I'm a big fan of superhero novels, and fight scenes are a big reason. On the other hand if it's not your thing, I can see why someone might not be as interested in those parts.

Gabi wrote: "Chapter 24: [spoilers removed]

@Colleen: oh, the correct phrase is "zoning out". Thanks a lot, I try to remember that. Yup, and I'm the same with the action scenes, but I feel a bit bad about that..."


Spacing is also a totally acceptable phrase. :D

Re Chapter 24: (view spoiler)[I thought the idea of the make-up buying seen was cool, but I got a little annoyed at the idea that the advice Calamity was giving for makeup was "the correct" advice, because, ya know, different strokes and all that. I totally wear blue, purple and green lipstick during the day when I feel like it... (hide spoiler)]

Bobby wrote: "I loved the action bits, but I've already mentioned that I'm a big fan of superhero novels, and fight scenes are a big reason. On the other hand if it's not your thing, I can see why someone might ..."


It kind of is my thing... but I also find action scenes to be, in general, not very well written. Not just this book, just, in general...

I finished this today, and over all I liked it a lot. I would totally recommend it. My enthusiasm did cool a teeny bit in the last quarter of the book for a few reasons.

(view spoiler)[I couldn't really get into the battle with the mechas. They were so clearly a distraction from the real evil plot afoot that I was just waiting for that battle to be over and it lasted quite a while.

More broadly, I had liked the idea that the "good guys" aren't really as good as they seem. Fighting for good doesn't stop them from being assholes or bigots (looking at you, Greywytch). And then we get a little bit of backstory that they might be (are?) knowingly protecting crooked governments, which I thought was a interesting plot point, but then it just gets dropped, with "that wasn't the whole story" and the "he crossed the line" business, which was annoying.

So when Danny first meets Utopia, and it seems like she's trying to protect humanity from the Nemesis, just maybe by questionable means, and I was intrigued! Good guys, not so good! Bad guys, not so bad? But then it turns out she's just a regular old megalomaniac super villian, which was a little disappointing. (hide spoiler)]

But I still found it compelling and fun to read! I could definitely see reading the sequel soon, but I need to take a break first. Too much YA makes me grumpy.

There are 2 things I keep coming back to (finished Ch. 28)

(view spoiler)[ There was a quick line about estrogen making the highs higher and the lows lower. I have 3 things to say about that.

1. Why is she noticing estrogen? She's not on hormones. Is it just that her body chemistry altered too and she's feeling like she's on hormones because it's all changing through her blood? I had assumed, because of how it was explained and how she wasn't a blubbering mess immediately afterwards that her body had adapted as completely as it could have done to conform with her actual gender.

2. I am uncomfortable with the assumption that women are more emotional because there's more emotional "space" due to our general hormone balance. I've had my hormones effed with (past puberty lol) and I don't think my capacity for feelings changed. I realize that's a sample size of one, but it's such a huge stereotype to overcome that I'm sensitive to it.

3. Which leads me to this point, where the thing that getting new amounts of estrogen does do for people on it for whatever reason is increase the chance for panic attacks and depression. I was sort of expecting the talk about feeling the different hormones to lead to a discussion of what happens for many people going through hormone treatment.

One of my trans friends told me that estrogen didn't make her feel more, it made the feelings softer. So, like seeing a cute animal engaged the feelings we have for things we love and protect rather than just humor, for example. Again, small sample size, but that makes more sense without being as uncomfortable as ascribing emotional capacity and flux on people who produce greater quantities of estrogen.

And the other thing that bothered me was the Ricochet treatment. This whole book is a thin (but fun and endearing!) veneer over the different ways society makes life hell for trans people. I was excited to see other queer folk and races in the book...but in one paragraph, I felt like all the allyship inherent in having a smarter, more experienced Black woman graycape was stripped away. I can think of several way more elegant ways to explain that what happened to him was more complicated than it seems without evoking all the stereotypes and denying all the hurt that is present for so many Black people.

(hide spoiler)]

But other than that, so far I'm enjoying myself and curious to see how it ties up!

Allison wrote: "There are 2 things I keep coming back to (finished Ch. 28)"

Fully seconding all of these points.