Our Shared Shelf discussion

Hey OSS friends,

I’m very interested in your thoughts on the topic.
Lately I spoke to a male friend about feminism.

He considers himself as a feminist and told me he thinks women should not wear any makeup.
With makeup women are pointing the attention of men only on their looks and not their character and thoughts.
By wearing makeup they are painting over their real self.

I don’t agree with him. I like wearing Make-up and I like being a feminist. I don’t think lipstick makes me less of a feminist.

But I was wandering how you guys see this.

Is Make-Up anti-feministic?

There’s some truth in what your friend is saying. I was reminded of the scene in which Hamlet accused Ophelia of putting a mask on: “God gives you one face, but you paint another on top of it.”
However, all in all, I think it is an individual choice. And though I know putting make up on sometimes equals hiding oneself behind a mask, it really has to do with the fact whether one has come to know themselves or not. If one came to know themselves well enough and put make up on, it would be to elevate their state.

I actually think it is quite the opposite. Women are always being shamed for doing feminine things and being shamed for doing the things they enjoy. Him, a man, dicatating what women should and should not wear is anti-feminist. Just let women wear whatever the fuck they want and what makes them feel comfortable maybe? Feminism is about choice. It's not some white man's religion that says what is right and what is wrong. This shouldn't even be debatable. It reminds me of bras. Some women like them some women don't it's really up to you personally. I don't like makeup but that doesn't make me any more or less of a feminist.

I do not see how wearing make-up is related to feminism. I personally do not like it that much, because in my mind (for now) wearing make-up is related to "making your self confident" so it actually makes me sad 😢 sad because make-up seems to be extremely important for some societies and it somehow undermine some people's confidence. I also interpret it as "I am going to be more handsome/beautiful" or "people won't see this defect on my face" etc... I am not saying that every women and men think that but for those who do have those thoughts it makes me sad.

So I feel that make-up has indeed an influence on people's perceptions but I do not think it makes someone anti feminist or pro feminist. I think this is a different question.

By the way quick question; why wearing make-up? What are the reasons/expectations for doing so? I am asking that since I am sure there many things I ignore regarding that.

This is very interesting to me. I’m 48 and sometimes I wear a ton of makeup sometimes I don’t. I usually wear it when I’m feeling flamboyant or I’m going into town but sometimes I have been going to a function where most people are wearing makeup and I might not feel like being flamboyant such as when I went to the tranny night at heaven and didn’t wear a scrap of makeup but me and my friend Stephen, my social butterfly he dressed us both in 1950s beach wear with heals and gorgeous hats and it was summer 1990 and we wore not a scrap of makeup but instead had oversized cat eye sunglasses on. He was a fashion designer who lived in Kilburn and identified as gay man . I’m grey Ace and feminist. Stephen Brennan was a feminist too, he was one of the most interesting people I ever met and I miss him dearly. We debated about is make up feminist or not so often.
I often feel powerful and empowered when I have applied a very fierce makeup and people can feel intimidated by me I look very sweet without makeup and those saying makeup is a mask yes it is, but so are clothes and even behaviour can be seen as a mask ie the class clown, the victim, the successful businesswoman/man the mother, the feminist. Clothes are a form of mask too and why should we not use all the things we can to empower ourselves? After all which is best to be naked without makeup or clothes and hide at home questioning everything you can think of or is it better to get out there and have fun using every tool in your kit to create yourself into who you choose to be not caring what anyone else thinks about you ?
I spent many years mixed up not understanding who I was or where I came from my childhood family was built on lie piled up on lie my parents were completely dishonest with me I still don’t even know if they ever married or anything about my mum. I learned more at her funeral in 20 minutes than I knew in 48 years. She was not identified as a feminist yet she had wanted to be a land girl in the war. She also did everything in her power to ruin anything I did including telling dad she’d leave him and divorce him for everything if he paid my university fees for St Martin’s art college in London. I would have been there with Damon Allbarn, blur, the YBAs and I was offered a place as one of the head principles there marked our o level art work. I missed out on a once in a life time opportunity because dad wouldn’t pay because of that. She didn’t wear makeup. All she wore was a nasty pink lippy she also didn’t do her hair and only allowed me to bath once a week and I guess I seen women with no makeup and short messy hair that were not particularly hygienic, she never shaved under her arms either. I have no idea why not. She married dad for his money when he died her and her three kids from a previous marriage, apparently they are half bro and my half sisters, they took Everything dad had and I was left destitute with two children who are both low functioning autistic. I equate women like her with women who don’t look after what they look like very well. I don’t believe wearing makeup is not a feminist thing.
That evil bitch who was my mum and her equally selfish offspring don’t wear makeup they believe they are beautiful and don’t need it. I believe wearing makeup is fun and made me different to the others in my family who tortured me for many years until there was literally only a shell left. I was pretty when I was younger but they did everything to make me sound and appear ugly she even had a hair dresser chop my waist length hair into a awful pixie cut then refused to get the products the hair dresser told her I would need to keep my style neat. I have a double crown and two cow licks and thick wavy strawberry blonde/ ginger hair . She decided I was not going to wear makeup too.
By the time I was 14 my Dads sister gave me a huge box of out of date makeup and nail polish. I loved it. She also showed me how to apply it. She owned Hamilton Chemists I miss her dearly. She wore makeup and did her hair nice. She had a custom made Jag sj12? It was beautiful. I loved that my mum sent me away to live with her in summer holidays. I cried and begged her to let me stay with her but she told me mum loved me and the truth was my Aunts loved me , my mum seen me as a means to an end. Disposable. She resented me and despised me and as I got older she started behaving jealous too. She would break my belongings or makeup the African gold jewellery my Aunty gave me that all vanished so did the 1950s Rolex my dad gifted me. How can Mums entire family not find my Rolex? Sorry if this is more like a short story than an answer to a comment but I guess I’m not great at communicating things in a brief way, I’m also trying to explain my odd views on makeup.
I believe make up empowered me when I had no way to be me .
I believe the women in my family who were kind and fun and strong independent individuals who had a great education and were successful business women were my dads older sisters. They owned a chain of chemists that they ran with a third person my Aunty Mornie’s husband Ian Hamilton. However my aunt and uncle were partners. He was not her boss nor she his. They treat each other with equal respect and loyalty and love. It was the first time I met people like that. I loved being around them. I was terrified and suicidal and hated being at home. If I was grounded as I was 99% of my youth I could put my makeup on and play my culture club record and dance in my room as I pretended to be boy George. I didn’t realise he was a different sex to me as mum forced me to wear my older bros clothes and he was 13 years older so they looked very out of fashion.
Makeup allowed me to escape my reality, it empowered me and was the only thing I got pleasure from as even the little Yorkshire terrier dad had given me on my third birthday was claimed as mums. She constantly said I was irresponsible and didn’t know how to look after a dog. Dad had given it to me as a companion and to help me learn how to look after another creature.
So I think makeup helped me to survive a childhood and younger adulthood that many people wouldn’t have. My first Suicide attempt was when I was 8 I still have the scar. She smacked me so hard I fell to the floor off my bed then I was thrown against the wall again and again. She told me she’d kill me properly. I believe if someone hadn’t knocked the door she might have.
Maybe others see it differently but I feel very uncomfortable around people who never wear makeup I also decided early on I was never going to marry especially not for money or a nice house. I don’t think makeup is feminist but I do believe that you can definitely empower yourself by wearing a little amount to enhance what is already there. I also believe nobody has a right to tell you No you can’t wear that or do that.
I’m not even sure what feminism is about anymore, but I believe as long as we help each other instead of torturing each other we give each other a gift of strength and happiness and love which are things all feminists should have in abundance.

Nadine wrote: "By wearing makeup they are painting over their real self...."

'Tis a rubbish statement, IMO.

One should not let themselves be pressured into wearing anything that doesn't properly reflect their own idea of themselves or makes them feel positive, but other than that, wearing make-up or not is neither feminist nor anti-feminist by itself.
Because if we start there we would have to question colouring your hair, shaving or not, wearing jeans or dresses or suits... high heels, low heels, sneakers... things simply can not be bundled up that easily.

A lot of people have already expressed this, but I don't think just the act of wearing or abstaining from make up is, in itself, feminist or anti-feminist. I think it comes down to more of the individual's reason for wearing make-up.

Personally, I view make-up as part of professional garb. I wear it to teach. I will also wear make up when going out and wanting to "dress up." But on a daily basis, I normally don't. I went through most of my school career, including college, not wearing make-up except when dressing professionally.

I know a lot of people (men included) wear make up to cover up or hide "blemishes" and feel make-up improves their appearance. Though this is probably the most outstanding reason that could be considered anti-feminist because, as Nadine's friend said, it is catering to the idea that your appearance is more important than who you are as a person, I'm still not sure if this is truly anti-feminist. Would you say a drag queen is anti-feminist simply because he wears make-up without knowing anything else about him?

So (contradicting myself here) I'm not even sure if the reason can make the act feminist or anti-feminist. As so many people here said, feminism is largely about choice.

Gloria Steinem said "A feminist is anyone who recognizes the equality and full humanity of women and men." It's sad how so many of us are uncertain about the proper ways to be a good feminist and just make it harder for us to be OK being ourselves. It affects the ways we relate to men and sometimes it really hurts us when it comes to dating.

The men should not dress up nicely, wear a Longines or Rolex, drive a nice car, wear branded shades and they must not shave their beards.

Men who can’t differentiate between a Ruby Woo and Russian Red, think that we wear make up for their attention? If this is the formula, then men shouldn’t try to catch our attention by dressing up nicely and go everywhere in their sleeping suits. This is the exact mentality that blames the rape victim for wearing “provocative” clothes.

I’m sorry such men, in my opinion, are NOT feminists. Feminism is not a fad, it’s a something serious.

I feel like just the fact that we have the option to wear make-up or not is feminist. We choose how we want to show ourselves to not only our own selves, but to society as a whole.

Make-up enhances our features and gives us the confidence to be our best selves. Not everyone is wearing make-up to attract the attention of a mate, though that is an additional benefit.

To that extent, to be a completely feminist idea, I believe men should be able to wear make-up for the same purpose. There shouldn't be such abuse towards men who choose to paint up their face if they like and experiment. It's art; this guy is making it look cheap and desperate.

But that's just my opinion. =)

Eram wrote: "The men should not dress up nicely, wear a Longines or Rolex, drive a nice car, wear branded shades and they must not shave their beards.
..."

Truth!
I had to get new glasses, and by that logic I shouldn't have needed about half an hour to choose a model which I felt suits me, just grab the next best thick black rimmed frame and be done with it. :D

Feminism should be a source of power for women, not a cage. If you do that you're not feminist enough, if you don't do that you're not feminist enough. That's the real problems of feminists. We often trap ourselves in rules just because we want people to take us seriously. Women can do whatever they want, just as men. If we want to put make up on our faces it should not be a problem. I don't think putting make up on is like "painting on our real selves". Make up helps women feel better with themselves when they look at the mirror, plus it's fun! It's just like wearing fashion clothes rather than sweatsuits all the time. Make up could be anti feminist if women are actually afraid of being seen by other poeple without make up.

The bottom line is: do whatever the hell you want to do, do what makes you happy. If you like the way you look with make-up on, wear it. If you don't want to find the time to put make-up on, don't put it on. But don't let men or women tell you what you should or shouldn't do, don't let the advertisements on TV make you feel bad about your body. Easier said than done, but I think that that's the issue here: if you wear make-up to fit into a standard of femininity, if you can't go out without wearing make-up, that's problematic. As has been said before, feminism is about choice... HOWEVER it is true that sometimes society has engrained its norms in us in such ways that we don't see the obligation anymore, we think it's a choice (think body hair-we like to think we shave because we like ourselves better that way... but this self-hate of our hairy body is not natural; it's very difficult to deconstruct because we think it comes from a place of choice.)

Eram wrote: "The men should not dress up nicely, wear a Longines or Rolex, drive a nice car, wear branded shades and they must not shave their beards.

Men who can’t differentiate between a Ruby Woo and Russia..."

I really loved your answer. And I agree. That friend is not a feminist. Or at least, he still hasn't freed himself of all of what the patriarchy is saying (which can be okay, if he is ready to listen and if he recognize he is not perfect and does not know better than everyone just because).

A lot of men have that kind of position against make up, which is funny because their arguments all stand on the "women are wearing make up to trap men" when actually they also say "men don't like make-up" which are to arguments that invalidate themselves. Part of why they think that way is kinda obvious : everything feminine is terrifying to the Patriarchy, is "dirty". Also, women that wear make-up are seen as more self-confident, which is a big no-no in Patriarchyland.

But, there also are a lot of other things at play. Men don't know anything about make-up, and men (I'm generalizing but I'm talking of those men that say make-up is bad obviously) are raised in the idea that they know, they just know, and they obviously know better than women. A man trying to mansplain make-up will be ridiculous, and he knows it, so instead he mansplains why make-up is bad.

Also, men know we actually don't wear make up for them. And that scares them. Because if we want to look pretty, but don't do it for them, it's just not what Patriarchy have been saying to them all along : women only exist to please men, only WANT to please men. (That is also one of the reasons why a lot of men are pretty violent against lesbianism).

Plus let's be perfectly clear, when they say "make up is bad", they don't talk about the make-up that a lot of women wear everyday because Patriarchy tells them to. They still want women to use make-up to be more attractive, the make up that hides blemishes, dark circles around the eyes, freckles (which I find amazingly pretty but discovered recently a lot of people find ugly 0o) or zits. What they particularly don't like about make up is the uber-colored lipstick, the colourfull eyeshadow and eye-liner for miles. That make-up is the one they deem "un-feminist", or "a mask" or even will say "This is a lie about the merchandise". That make-up is the issue. A lot of men will actually say "make-up is bad" about the big make-up, but say "women have to take care of themselves otherwise they don't respect themselves" when a woman actually doesn't hide her flaws.


Now, is make-up feminist ? Hell yeah ! It is when you decide it is. It is when you wear it because you want to wear it, be it the discreet one to hide some "flaws" or the one that can't possibly ignored (aka war paint). It also is when you know that men (and all the other genders) can wear it too, and should if they want to. And it is when you don't wear it just "because you have to", or at least, if really you can't avoid it (like if you work in a place where you have to wear make-up) you recognize it as being a totally unfair rule that you just can't afford to fight right now but not something normal.

(sorry for the long post)

Noina wrote: " it is true that sometimes society has engrained its norms in us in such ways that we don't see the obligation anymore, we think it's a choice..."

I could not agree with this more. I have never worn that much make up (I will usually wear a little concealer and some mascara to work every day) but I have always thought I was wearing make up out of choice and that it made me feel more professional. However, recently I had an eye infection so I had to stop wearing make up for a day or two while it cleared. I was so nervous about going into work without make up and the comments I might receive. I work at a school with a strict dress code and for some reason I got it into my head that I thought I might be called into the office and given a warning for looking unprofessional and messy. My boyfriend is a feminist. He personally doesn't see the point of make up but he agrees that it's the individual's choice whether or not to wear it. He also works at the same school as me and when I told him of my concerns he told me to let him know if anyone were to dare say anything and he would deal with it!

In the end, I went to work and there were no comments. I actually started to enjoy the fact I was not wearing any make up so I continued to not wear any make up once my eyes cleared up and I couldn't believe how empowered I felt! My skin has also never been healthier! I think it is a person's choice whether or not they wear make up but unfortunately I think there are too many people who feel they need to wear make up.

Plenty of men do not wear make up and their professionalism does not come into question, why then should it be different for women?

I am only just starting out on reading feminist literature and becoming involved in discussions and debates. Part of the reason that I have become interested in feminist discussions is my shock at how I myself have become caught up in society's expectations of how I should look and act as a woman. My concerns about make up these past few weeks have just added to this self-realization I am currently going through. I am becoming more and more passionate about ensuring other women don't feel the same pressures as I did and hopefully help them to analyse whether their actions are through choice or obligation.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/gracespelman...
Most men have no idea how much effort goes into a "no makeup look".
In terms of activism, not wearing makeup in public normalizes the idea of makeup not being obligatory, so it's a very feminist choice. But wearing unusual makeup/stretching the limits of socially acceptable is also a feminist choice. After all, the patriarchy doesn't only dictate whether you should wear makeup or not, but also how.
Either way, activism doesn't have to come at the expense of your happiness and wellbeing.

And of course I agree that it's awfully inappropriate of a cis man to tell a woman whether she should wear makeup.

I read in a book that scientists have found that in general human interactions both men and women are biased for women who wear make up and against those who do not wear make up. That is a moderate and toned down make. Men liked that look but weren't aware that women were actually wearing make up and women were aware that other women were wearing make up and preferred it.

What these findings tell me is that we live in the society that expects women to wear make up. It goes hand in hand with the biases uncovered in Heidi vs Howard on the resume experiments.

I'm not sure if that's where Nadine's friend is coming from.
But looking at make up from the perspective of biases I think that a decision whether or not to wear make up can be viewed as a statement for or against the society's biases and expectations of women.

I think the fact that this is even a topic for discussion is the biggest anti-feminist act. Make-up is a choice that is open to not only women but men also. And IMO, how one sees make up says a lot about themselves too. We don't really have an opinion or think it unmanly when a male film actor or a male theatre artist puts on tons of make-up before going on stage but we see it as a facade when a woman wears make up to the mall. Doesn't that make us anti-feminists? Or worse still- hypocrites?

I am not a big fan of wearing make up but I keep up with all the latest trends and the new launches. I love watching make up videos and trying on a few tricks. For that matter, I love buying make up too, expensive or not. And even though I am not very good at it, I love wearing it when I am dressed in a traditional Indian attire or when I'm going to the clubs on a Saturday night or to a party. Some times I wear a full face while on others I just paint my lips and put on an eyeliner. I do this for the same reason I wear high heels- it gives me confidence. Don't get me wrong, I don't need make up to feel empowered. I feel confident and beautiful even when I'm only wearing a nude lipstick or lip gloss that doesn't even show in the public, and most times when I step out, I'm bare faced- not even wearing that. But the fact that I have the choice to indulge in the phenomenon makes this whole concept of make up a verity for me. This in itself is the boost feminism needs. To be able to look at this idea as a truth in itself. The truth that some of us just like wearing make up while some of us don't. It's a choice. We may indulge in it because it makes us feel empowered and gives us the courage to send a message out there or because it makes us feel beautiful on days we don't feel so good about ourselves.

Not just that but make up is often also used as a tool or a means for people to tell the world their truth. It is often also used as a weapon for facing the world. Many of us who identify ourselves as homosexuals or gender fluid use make up to empower one another. And they don't do it for the world- they do it maybe because it helps them face their own truths or because it helps someone else come to term with theirs. They use it to empower themselves and uplift others.

Feminism, for me, is all about choices and respecting those choices regardless what the choice was or the fact that it was made by a man or a woman. That is feminism and people who practice this belief are the true feminists. Personally, I feel, feminism doesn't need any discussions at all. It's the simplest concept out there. It recognizes the right to choice of every human being and accepts their decisions without questioning them. You see them as equals and thus respect them too much to have an opinion about their life. It's an attribute not a quality.

Elizabeth wrote: "I read in a book that scientists have found that in general human interactions both men and women are biased for women who wear make up and against those who do not wear make up. That is a moderate..."

I couldn't agree more.

The fact that we have the choice to go out in public bare-faced is a luxury available to us because we are not public figures or celebrities who are burdened by the expectations of the society to be glammed up at all times. And it's for these expectations that it becomes a headline every time they post a make up free picture or step out like that. There are celebrities who love going make up free in their everyday lives but the fact that the world knows that celebrity's name is, sadly, because it has been highlighted so much by the media.

It's ironic how shocking it is to see them in their natural form because the society "expects" them to live under that "facade".

I have an inkling that it might depend on WHY you do it.

If you do it, 'cause otherwise you would get fired or people would think you aren't sophisticated or whatever other norms society has made up, then, YES, it's anti-feministic as hell.

If you do it, 'cause otherwise you would feel naked and inferior to other gals wearing a ton of it, then it could be neutral in the terms of feminism but this might show that maybe, just maybe, some psychological help might come useful and go a long way to improve your life. (Disclaimer: a very good psychologist, not the 'here's your pills. NEXT one!' type) And it could stem from all the pressure from the society that our girls grow up with and that can make quite a number on us.

If you do it, just 'cause you like it and want to express yourself a bit more freely (without feeling the pressure to do it) in the ways of lip color, rouge, whatever... Well, then, I think it's definitely not anti-feministic. But I think it would only work if there really was no pressure whatsoever for you to do it, both external and internal, and you would be equally comfy going without it.

Personally, I'm no big fan of make up, I'm more of all the things natural gal, but I can imagine how some souls more artistic than I might come to like it and find some pleasure in it.

I dont think that make up is anti-feministic. When we are talking about make up we must know why some womens love make up. It is ok to want look better but we must know that the look dependes of society. If. Women do make up only because society want women with make up that isnt good. Women must have a choice. She is pretty with make up but she is still beautiful without make up.

P.s
I'm not make up an addict but admit I like to have a good powder.

We have to detach the personal and the ideological in this manner. Personal choices don't necessarily fall into feminist or anti-feminist categories.

Choosing to wear make-up doesn't make you, as a person, anti-feminist or a bad feminist, no matter the reason. And it goes the other way too; not wearing any make-up does not automatically mean you're a feminist. Being a feminist is more about what you believe in and your attitude towards others.

However there is something about make-up that is anti-feminist and that is the strong pressure for women to wear make-up - an expectation that is not extended to men - and the fact women are often not considered attractive or professional-looking without it. It's the fact that at the same time make-up is seen as a trivial or shallow interest and that wearing too much is frowned upon.

As people, regardless of our individual choices or preferences, we have to acknowledge this sexist expectation exists and influences our behaviour if we hope to challenge it.

Oh the irony of his statement. Wearing make-up is not feminist, but telling women what (not) to do is?

Also the argument that women "are pointing the attention of men to their looks" reminds me a lot of rape culture. As if it were okay to disregard my character, my thoughts, ideas and achievements only because I wear make-up. As if it were my fault that men don't see what's behind my physical appearance.

I don't want to come across as rude, but I have the feeling your friend needs to revisit what a feminist really is.

Telling women what to wear is anti feminist. Saying that makeup is only for women is also anti feminist.
It's a form of self expression, dressing up, AND a form of art.
I find that saying women shouldn't wear makeup is just as appalling as saying women should. Each is dictating what women should or shouldn't do; and that isn't cool! :)

I have followed a singer for nearly a decade and always admired her make up looks, purely because they are different and she chooses to paint her face as a form of self expression to fit the mood she is feeling. If this is what people like to do then let them! Also nothing wrong with not wearing make up. My point is it shouldn't be felt you do or don't have to, and should just be up to an individual's personal preference. Going back to the original post, i don't think choosing whether to wear make up or not makes you anti-feministic. :)

Camelia Rose wrote: On the other hand, I can see where the OP's male friend's point of view comes from: in the long history of gender suppression and patriarchy, beauty standard (and makeup industry) has been skewed towards male-endorsed femininity. I say diversity in beauty appreciation is key to change this perception.

Interesting enough this is not quite the case throughout history. Mostly the acceptance of women wearing makeup was often positively correlated to their rights.

Take ancient Greece where women were perceiveed as kind of stupid and wearing any kind of makeup-like paint on their face was seen as not serving their place in the world.

Take ancient Egypt where women were able to obtain property and heavy makeup was common (on both sexes).

Take medival times where a women's purpose was to give birth and be obedient. Makeup was doomed as sinful in these times.

Take Victorian Britain with their extremely strict moral standards and gender roles where makeup was seen as indecent and only suitable for prostitutes (consider the perception of prostitution in these times)

Take the 20s of the last century with the kind of first uprising of women asking for rights and influence in society.

Take the 70s and 80s with the idea of power dressing and the adjacent pretty heavy makeup to "suit up" in a male dominated world.


What is tied to a male-dominated view is the idea of painting your face in a way that can't be perceived. Which still does not make it wrong or un-feminist, but for me the argument that makeup always serves the idea of women serving under partiarchial views does not hit the point. Also, the way in which makeup is ridiculed mostly by men is an argument pro-makeup in itself kind of.

I have to say that I am completely useless in interpreting poetry. But I don't see how the decsription of her putting on makeup is something problematic. The makeup is just a picture for he returning home after having fought her battle, returning to her everyday self.
I don't see why the perception that makeup is something feminine is bad. For me the problem more that femininity is seen as being "bad" (or weak, or hysterical, or whatever). And with telling that makeup is in contrast to feminist views one kind of retells the story of femininity as being not desireable.

Additionally, feminism is about choice. If someone says that wearing makeup is bad as it is anti-feministic they are taking a choice from me. It would be anti-feminist if a woman does not have a choice to not wear makeup. But that does not doom wearing any in general.

Camelia Rose wrote: "A few days ago I came across a post about some guy on twitter disgusted by women who dye their hair "unnatural colour" ...."

Saw a follow up to that post, where a woman agreed to his view, and was floored by the comments section in which lots of women showed of their colourful hair.
Beautiful doesn't begin to describe it. <3

Camelia Rose wrote:

I never said that was bad. I never said "makeup is in contrast to feminist views" either. My post did no..."


That was not what I meant, I'm sorry for stating my point in a misunderstanding way. English is not my mother tongue so it can be hard for me to express myself precisely.
My arguments were meant towards why I don't support the claims of the OPs male friend. I totally agree that there is male-endorsed femininity and that it is tied to appearance - which includes makeup. I am opponent to the claim that makekup is always tied to male expectations of femininity. Claims like the one of OPs friend often have a problematic connotation for me. Hence "I'm a feminist, I don't like makeup, makeup is anti-feminist". That is for me a male expectation on how I have to appear when I am a feminist. An he is taking the choice from me to do what I like.

I have been a feminist for most of my adult life, since my teens/early 20’s.... over 40 yrs and I’m amazed, surprised and saddened that we still discuss and debate the same subjects we discussed in those early days. For me feminism,simplistically, is about fighting for a woman’s right to choose to be and do whatever she wants. We are all a series of contradictions, so whilst we may be ardently independent we may also choose to wear makeup. I don’t like to see our actions separated into feminine or unfeminine, these are social constructs and as such should be abandoned along with the desire to constrain us into specific ways of behaving. It saddens me greatly when I hear people talk about their ‘princess’ daughters or granddaughters or talk about girls and boys toys. These are just ideas that are put in place to constrain and separate us. They do neither males nor females any good. Make up is often talked about as a way of covering who we are yet tattooing is talked about as self expression. The only difference in this body decoration is one is temporary and one is permanent. It’s interesting how often make up is criticised whilst tattooing is not OR visa versa.
I think if you want to wear make up that should be your choice, however if that leads on to wishing to conform to the ever growing list of expectations of female attractiveness then that is a different issue. Increasingly being hair free, botoxed, made up, with eyebrows groomed to with an inch of their lives and long hair is seen as the ‘uniform’ of the attractive modern young woman, difference for instance short hair, unmade up face, hair on any part of your body is frowned upon. This conformity to specific sets of rules in order to be considered female and attractive is what is deeply sad.

Nadine wrote: "Hey OSS friends,

I’m very interested in your thoughts on the topic.
Lately I spoke to a male friend about feminism.

He considers himself as a feminist and told me he thinks women should not wear..."

I think that the premise of "women should not...." is anti feminist. The idea of feminism is that women and men have equal rights. That being said, women and men should be able to choose how, when, and with what to adorn their bodies.

How about "women should not tell other women not to wear makeup"? :D
IDK, I really love the "5 Whys" technique, I do think if you really get to the bottom of it, we've all been brainwashed into valuing beauty etc. The only feminist makeup is the one patriarchal society doesn't want you to wear, I think. (but it can also be neutral, not necessarily anti-feminist)

https://www.facebook.com/waggafeminis... (edit: yikes, didn't realize the post was from a TERF page... i agree with this specific post but not anything else they post)

Telling women that they should or must wear makeup is anti-feminist and believing that only women should wear makeup is too. I am specifically thinking of work environments where women are told they must wear makeup and men are not. Other than this, a person of any gender who chooses to wear makeup, that's their business, as long as they aren't telling other people whether to wear it or not.

I am choosing to reply to this discussion topic before reading any other responses because I want my voice to remain genuine. I find that if I read everyone's responses quickly and before coming to my own conclusion (on any topic) that the reflections on the topic are then biased, and become a wash of my own feelings and those of others.

Make up for me is a complicated matter. Firstly, I think it is indisputable that the cosmetic industry is a multi-billion dollar conglomerate that profits off of the insecurities of women. As we read in one of our earlier selections in the club "the beauty myth", women's increased time and effort into beautifying herself have become the new form of domesticity, and in doing so, has enslaved women to their vanities. I appreciated that book and that point of view immensely. Since reading it, I've only worn make up for my benefit. Which is to say that I have ended up wearing hardly any at all because I realized that the majority of the time, I was doing it to attract male attention and to thereby feel better about myself. I also find that when i have make up on, I feel differently about myself. I feel good, and confident, and wonderful. But I also feel vain, and haughty and self-centered as I have in fact spent so much time "making" myself look a certain way, which feels extremely self-absorbed. However, I love that make up can be used as a tool for the positive. I always feel brighter and happier with make up on, but I question whether this is because of the comfort I feel in meeting traditional gender stereotypes of femininity. If I only feel "pretty" when I look "feminine", then is that me, Rachael, or the socially acceptable, people-pleasing, eyelash bashing version of me? I grapple with adoring how it makes me feel: desirable and attractive. But, I worry about the origins of my desire to meet these standards when they are so embedded in socially constructed notions of what a woman should be. Ultimately, it's up to each and every individual if they choose to wear make up. There are attractive and unattractive feminists, polished and posh, and au natural. Both occur just as they do in any microcosm of society. Certainly, there is nothing "unfeminist" about wearing make up, because feminism celebrates and embraces a woman's choice to do what she chooses.

Rachael wrote: "But I also feel vain, and haughty and self-centered as I have in fact spent so much time "making" myself look a certain way, which feels extremely self-absorbed..."

In my opinion we have to stop feeling bad for spending time with no other goal than enjoying ourselves. This not only applies to makeup, but it is an accuse often tied to it.

It is objectively not an anti-feministic thing. But I can see why your friend has that thought. In ancient time, at least in some areas, taking ancient China for example (I am just here using China as a fact, plz don't get too racial and stereotypical or I will be very, very, very grumpy), concubines beautified themselves for a very strong aim-- attract the emperor, thus they can gain the power, thus they can survive in the palace, and in some cases, their families and kins can survive in the society. And I allude that this scenario can fit in lots of other areas. So why your friend thinks like this is very clear. Besides, I am not keen on cosmetics, physiologically unnecessary.

Women spend hours on makeup and that is just done so that they can attract attention. Many people feel good when they apply makeup and that's okay! But maximum people apply makeup to attract attention. Beauty lies within. Why do you have to "make" yourself look good so that people will like you?

It really goes down to the definition of feminism because wearing make up isn't the advocacy of women's right but instead it is a preference. So it is more of an individual's choice. Your friend may not like the idea of make up. So it is unfair to label him as anti-feminist for having a preference. He could still believe in the ideologies of female empowerment. The question should be, do you like him enough to let his opinion to make your better judgement? If you have to stop doing whatever that you wish because someone doesn't share your interest, that would be really sad, don't you think?

If a woman feels empowered wearing make up, why stop? From a man's perspective, it is time consuming and expensive. It is also circumstantial when we consider where and when do a woman wear make up. I've no qualms over women wearing make up at events and workplace but I may raise my eyebrows if i see woman wearing make up at the gym. The common misconception from women is that men tries to dictate a woman's action. It is just a thought process, especially if your wife is taking forever to get ready to go out. I don't think that men are out to stop the make up industry. It is not like how the feminism movement tries to change the boy scout, gentleman's club, streetlights and road signs, male and female use in language. You don't see men doing that kinda thing. It is a preference. If you like to do something, don't stop. In anything that we do in our life, there will be plenty of criticism and cynical remarks. If it makes you happy, do it but don't expect for others to share your sentiments. That would be unfair.

Camelia Rose wrote: "It is ok to wear makeups to attract attention of others (of all genders). Humankind are social animals after all. Of course we want to be liked, as long as you are not forced to do what you are doi..."

This!

Plus, if you are strict with the thought of "Is makeup anti-feminist because it has a cause in looking good one the outside" we would need to discuss other topics, too. What about piercings and tattoos for instance? They can have meanings, yes, but in the end they are something to alter your natural look and for most people something that makes their body prettier. Still, I never heard this discussion about tattoos.

I also like the comment about makeup being a preference in looks and that's it.

Maybe if you're a feminist, listen to what women are saying. I am yet to meet a woman who says that she only puts makeup on her face to please men. True feminism is letting women do what they want. It makes me think of this awesome meme: https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/o...

If you are a feminist, you believe in allowing people to make their own decisions, from career choices to personal decisions, like wearing makeup. I fail to see how wearing makeup means you are not a feminist. Is it anti-feminist to wear dresses now too? If you are a feminist, you should not come down on other's decisions.

makeup might not be "physiologically unnecessary", neither is living in a house instead of a cave or having a washing machine or electric power, but it sure makes things a hell of a lot easier. Yes makeup is used to attract a mate, and it makes it easier, especially when everyone is doing it.

* necessary* ... sorry I typoed that

I always compare such a question with
" Is shaving everyday necessary for men?"
The question would probably make someone smirk and someone else raise their eyebrows at the absurdity of it..
What's the necessity of such a ridiculous question?
Isn't it the man's personal preference? He can be clean-shaven if he wants to, he can don a stubble or grow a beard.. We don't judge him for it or relate facial hair to attracting the opposite sex..

Why don't we think of make-up in the same way. Let the girl/ woman wear it if she wants or leave it be, if she doesn't..

Why does every Tom, Dick and Harry just " have" to comment on
1. Excessiveness, making it look gaudy
2. No make-up , what, with her skin? What was she thinking?
3. Why is she suddenly wearing make-up? Is she trying to fit in?

and so on and so forth..

Why doesn't the world let it be?

I don't think make-up is feministic or anti-feministic, but judging or commenting on the woman and her ilk is definitely anti-feministic.

which is not cool, just to be clear

Nadine wrote: "Hey OSS friends.."

I honestly don't see you friend's point. Make up is a choice. Feminism is all about freedom of choice and equal rights. So you can choose to put make up on, just like you can choose to not put it on. Sounds like a very basic concept to me.

I'm not a big fan of make up on myself. But that's my choice, my opinion. I'm not better than anyone choosing to put it on. We get to decide what we should and should not do.

Also man, Your male friend needs to learn that everything women do is definitely not for men. We've got our own lives, and our own likes and dislikes.

I find it interesting that you’re friend, a male, has taken it upon himself to press his opinion on makeup and how it relates to feminism. Feminism is not solely for the benefit of females of course. Just as society dictates the “right and wrongs” for women, it does the same for men. But in my view, feminism is about equality. About live and let live and empowerment. In regards to makeup, it’s a personal choice that every woman or man should be able to freely make. Personally, there are days were I am comfortable and confident going barefaced, or with very little makeup. Other days I like to have fun with my makeup and go all out, and that’s how I feel confident that day. Confidence radiates, and what matters is that I feel good in my skin. Feminism is about choice.

I think it depends on why you wear it. If you are doing it because you like it, then it is not. If you are doing it because someone makes you feel like you have to, then it is anti-feminist and anti-humanist even, You should stand up for yourself and the right to do what you want with your body.

And, tell your friend that if he thinks that a woman who likes dressing up and wearing make up is not worth seeing as a whole person, he is not a feminist. A woman is not a peacock that points a man's attention to a certain point. Where he focuses is all up to him and says everything about his opinions about women and nothing about her intentions.

I don't think there's anything wrong with wearing makeup if it is your own choice. If wearing makeup makes you happy, then go for it. However, calling someone out or ordering someone to wear make up isn't cool.

Personally, I view makeup like facial hair. Men can decide to shave, have full beard/goatee/chevron/horseshoe mustache/original stache (insert whatever you can find from google), etc. It's an expression and a tool. People don't say clean shaved is anti muscularity or having a certain style of facial hair is masking who they are. The facial hair simply enhances the look or for self-expressing, just like wearing makeup. Why is that? Again, your male friend is being anti-feministic by implementing "what a woman should/should not do, according to him, a man. I don't have facial hair to play with when it comes to styling, so I might put some makeup that expresses my mood when I go out with my boyfriend. I do that to please myself (I love my eyebrows extra thick) and to please him because it feels good to please people you like. He would grow a 3-day stubble because I told him he looked sexy with it. He would do that to please me even though he prefers a clean shave. Yet, no one would think he is less a man but a sweet boyfriend. But why do I need to concern, a woman who wears makeup sometimes, could be anti-feministic when it comes to choose to wear or not to wear makeup? Respect people's personal choice to me is feministic and humanistic.

Makeup is not inherently anti-feministic any more than shaving his face is anti-masculinist for a man.

It is normal for a person to appreciate beauty, and there's no doubt that makeup can enhance our beauty. Women all over the globe enjoy makeup simply because we enjoy seeing ourselves look the prettiest we can.

Makeup only becomes anti-feministic if a woman who doesn't enjoy spending the time to don it, or who has difficulty wearing it due to allergies/autoimmune issues, feels that she has no choice but to wear it.