Sci-fi and Heroic Fantasy discussion

We are, believe it or not, coming up on the start of a new year. (Yes, another one.) It's a traditional time for reflection and reassessment followed by heavy drinking before going back to the same old grind. So...

Before I ask for nominations for "January's Classic SF/F Novel Discussion", I thought I'd ask if folks would like to revamp how we do those reads. We currently have a classic, series (formerly short story), and contemporary reads each month, spaced to start evenly each tenday on the 1st, 11th & 21st. Maybe three a month is too much? Or the classic / contemporary dichotomy too restrictive?

Thoughts, comments,...?

I personally like the classic/contemporary pairing.

I do miss the anthology reads, so I'm thinking that at least between series reads we can do one of those.

I like the classic/contemporary split... I'm not sure why the conversations have quietened though.

If it was going to be different, maybe it could be one sci-fi, one fantasy a month. There were a couple of months which felt like they were a bit genre-heavy on one side or the other ie 3 sci-fi in a row (that's just my memory, so it might not be accurate, but that's what I remembering feeling).

I think I prefer the series over the short story/anthology.

Other groups seem to have multiple books running at the same time without issue. Besides, if there are 3 books running, I'm more likely to want to read at least one. The fewer options, the less likely I am to read it. I know that there has been a month or two where I didn't like either option.

I like anthologies & miss them, but I don't read with any group all that often. Ever since GR took the discussions off the Home page, I've noticed a decrease in most groups.

Is there any possibility to open buddy reads? It seems to work really well in other groups and involve very few efforts e.g. One person propose a title and if there's someone else want to read it together then both can decide on the starting date. Often others jump in as well. Since the ones voting for group reads are very few (and not always involved in the discussion anyway) so why not try this option. The recruitment thread can be separate as well: buddy read for classic and buddy read for contemporary

Silvana wrote: "Is there any possibility to open buddy reads? It seems to work really well in other groups and involve very few efforts e.g. One person propose a title and if there's someone else want to read it t..."

That's a peachy and very sensible query.

I had noticed a drop off on both nominations and on votes, which of course would lead to fewer active discussions. The Lord Tyger vs Iron Dragon's Daughter was an example where for whatever reason there were only the two nominations, and while Lord Tyger did win the vote, I didn't see the people that voted for it actually participate in the discussion (not counting Jim who nominated it, G33z3r didn't vote though he participated, in fact did most of the participation), so there were two people who voted that didn't participate.

BTW, there is this in the vote post:
"Please vote only if you plan on participating in the discussion of that book."

If both Iron Dragon and Lord Tyger had tied with 1 each (i.e. their nominators) we could have just skipped it or replaced it with something that was of more interest, say an anthology.

I'm not saying that Iron Dragon should have won, because then it probably would have been a discussion of 1, but how come we didn't have more nominations if people didn't like those two? Or was it just a month where everyone felt like reading their own thing that wasn't SF/F related?

Just poking around to see what is causing the drop off is (maybe as Jim said discussions are down all around) and what is the best way to get people discussing again (I know we're all reading, so that's not it)

Of course could be a natural drop off this time of year, summer is over and people are back at work/school, getting ready for Christmas, etc. I seem to recall previous years that this time was a little less active. Maybe people are finishing up readings they wanted to complete before end of year but aren't good options for nominations (e.g. I still need to get through my last 3 Pern books, the last 2 Winterland books, the last Iron Dragon book...though I am actually picking up more group reads now than I did earlier in the year, LOL...gonna be a challenge to finish my pile of 15 books I've got set up...)

I had been wondering if the series had been taking away readers/voters from the regular reads?
I do think more buddy reads might increase overall participation.
I’ve found myself commuting to too many reads in the other hand and dropped out of several - at least two here.

(I may have also voted accidentally on one 😳 and didn’t realize it in time....)

I'm not sure if the Amber series would be the cause, the books are really short so it only takes me a couple days to read an Amber book, it wouldn't stop me from the other reads.

I do have concerns that it would happen if the books go over 300 pages, e.g. if the series read was Erikson's Malazan which are not only about 1000 pages each but also at least a dozen books, that would definitely have an impact. So that's why I was suggesting short/easy books, or we'd have "fat" trilogies but then take breaks between them, something to lighten the load.

After all, in 6 months of time, the series read only added 3 books to our yearly total, we had the anthologies every second month before, and your average anthology is longer than your average Amber book. On the other hand the Amber series is seeing quite a bit of participation while on average the anthologies tended to be a less popular (the reason they were every second month to start with).

I guess I don't feel quite as overloaded since this is the only group I'm a part of, I knew I wouldn't be able to participate properly if I was in multiple groups. I also try to expand my horizons and read the winning books even if they weren't something I'd have picked on my own, sometimes I get surprised that I do like them in the end. The one thing I won't do is go out and buy a book I'm not interested in to start with, I'll invest my time but not my money, so my library is often the decider if I participate or not :)

I doubt the series read is a contributing factor at this point - I think most people in that conversation participate in others. I agree with Andrea, I can see the potential for it to be an issue but I think there are definitely ways around it.

I checked the polls from over the last year - the total number of voters was regularly double digits. Which meant it didn't really matter if a couple dropped off, because you've still got quite a few people to participate. Bit more of an issue if you only start with 4. And even if there was a slump around this time last year it was from 15 to 10 voters.

I've been trying to do a bit more nominating because I found that I wasn't participating as much - there were a few winning books in a row that I wasn't interested in. And, like Andrea, I won't buy it if I'm not interested (my library can be surprising in both what it does and doesn't have).

Buddy reads might be a good idea. There are books that tend to crop up around similar times - I know Red Sister and Oathbringer were two that a lot of people read within a relatively close timeframe judging by the "What are you reading in..." comments. And Fifth Season could easily have been a buddy read.

Silvana wrote: "Is there any possibility to open buddy reads?..."

Sure. We've had a few buddy reads in the past, e.g. City of Miracles & Revenant Gun, both earlier this year. We discussed a buddy-read of The Fifth Season in last month's What are you reading this October topic, but at Andrea's suggestion it was nominated for the December Contemporary discussion topic and as it seems ahead in the voting, the idea may be moot. (I don't think it's a bad idea to propose a book as a normal group discussion before adding it as a buddy-read, but whatever.)

What would you suggest to facilitate more buddy-reads? A topic in which people can solicit buddies for discussing particular books?

We've been folding the few we've had into the Book Discussions folder, but if you think it would give more visibility to the idea, we could give them their own Buddy Reads folder.

Andrea wrote: "I do have concerns that it would happen if the books go over 300 pages, e.g. if the series read was Erikson's Malazan which are not only about 1000 pages each but also at least a dozen books, that would definitely have an impact...."

Cat wrote: "I like the classic/contemporary split... I'm not sure why the conversations have quietened though...."

There's no reason we couldn't spread them out more, e.g alternate classic & contemporary on alternate months. or we could resort to that that if & when series read books are doorstops.


Jim wrote: "I like anthologies & miss them, but I don't read with any group all that often. Ever since GR took the discussions off the Home page, I've noticed a decrease in most groups."

i think, as there is no longer a distinct short story anthology selection, we'll allow anthologies & novella as well as novels in the usual discussion nomination process.

G33z3r wrote: "
What would you suggest to facilitate more buddy-reads? A topic in which people can solicit buddies for discussing particular books?

We've been folding the few we've had into the Book Discussions folder, but if you think it would give more visibility to the idea, we could give them their own Buddy Reads folder. .."

Yes, just a thread will suffice, titled 'buddy read recruitment' or 'buddy read invite'. People can just propose books there, one or more and wait for others to state their interest. After dates are confirmed, the ones nominating the BR books should create a thread, around one or two weeks prior the reading period. Moderators can put the list of books and dates in the first message or create a(nother) sticky thread as people sometimes too lazy to read the first message in a thread with hundreds of messages. All BR related threads should be in a separate folder for easier navigation.

Silvana wrote: "Yes, just a thread will suffice, titled 'buddy read recruitment' or 'buddy read invite'. ..."

OK, I set up something like that, and we'll see how things evolve.

Two things I noticed about previous buddy reads was that they were both very recently published and weren't the first book in a series. So you have two types of readers, ones that read books as soon as they come out (and why you get a group of people reading the same thing at the same time) and those that like to wait till a series is more complete.

Maybe those "just published" books make the best buddy reads? After all, older books are unlikely to have multiple people all reading at the same time already unless selected as a group read.

Kind of like the buddy read is driven by the fact a book already has a lot of readers, and the group read is driven by the fact that it was voted on and thus it gained readers.

Buddy reads may splinter the group even more, not only are there 3 group reads a month, but there could be 10 ongoing buddy reads too. But I guess let's give it a try, as Cat pointed out, I was wrong that there was a lull at the end of last year, so it's not a seasonal thing.

so far, I'm reading that everyone's happy with the current Classic/Series/Contemporary monthly sequence, and we should continue that (as well as add support for buddy reads.)

Going once, going twice,...

Ha, sounds like this ship has flown, but I will say that I miss the anthology/novella/stories reads. I suspect it's the rare anthology/short story that will win out over a novel in a general poll. Maybe I'll try to suggest a couple of short buddy reads in the new year.

In terms of participation trends, generally, I only aim to join discussions if the selection is one that appeals to me, and even then I will often not join if the book is part of a series-in-progress (which seems to be usually the case), but I have been quieter on discussions of late--mainly b/c of some commitments creeping into my erstwhile personal leisure time, not b/c of any group dynamics.

I do need to remember to expand the "all discussions" list occasionally, since the Administrivia folder no longer appears on the group landing page. G33z3r's note on the January classics nomination thread prompted me to take a look.

Hillary wrote: "I do need to remember to expand the "all discussions" list occasionally, since the Administrivia folder no longer appears on the group landing page...."

Thanks for pointing that out. Administrivia fell off the bottom because I created two new folders recently, Buddy Reads & What Are We Reading. (i created the latter because it looked like the "What are youreading this month?" topics had taken over most of the Recommendations folder.) I bumped up the group settings for how many folder are displayed to compensate, and it should be back now.


Hillary wrote: "I will say that I miss the anthology/novella/stories reads. I suspect it's the rare anthology/short story that will win out over a novel in a general poll. Maybe I'll try to suggest a couple of short buddy reads in the new year...."

I miss them, too. Side story: Back in 2012, when Jonathan was the primary group moderator, he wanted to drop the short story discussions. I lobbied for keeping them and thus volunteered to manage the nominations & polls for the group discussions. Which is how you all got stuck with me as a mod. So there's a certain irony in abandoning it now. ;( But they will be eligible for classic & contemporary discussions instead.

Could you add wordage to the nomination request so we remember to do anthologies too? Like nominate classic novel/anthology? 😊

I guess for an anthology we go with the publish date of the overall anthology and not the stories within? Since it can easily span both classic and contemporary.

I definitely have a classic anthology I'm eager to nominate.

Got a question about buddy reads, would horror be allowed there or do we follow the same rules as the regular group reads? I mean of course it must be an SF or F book (that is the theme of our group) and I'm fine with the formal group reads disallowing horror, but it might be a place where those who want to read something a little more scary can do so. I'm not a big horror fan but some books I like seem to get tagged as horror even though there is nothing scary about them simply because it might have a vegetarian vampire in it.

The same goes for some other SF/F stuff we sometimes nominate but never wins the vote e.g. urban fantasy is pretty rare on this group.

BTW, I posted this on the buddy read thread though probably better to have put it here - I think the buddy reads are a marvelous place to nominate out-of-print or hard to find reads. So while you might not convince a group to go digging through used book stores to find a book, you may find one other person that already owns it and will buddy read it with you.

I would vote yes b/c of things that win Hugos (which to me is a clear vote that it's SF) that are tagged as horror....

Obviously I'll be glad if some SFF novels happened to be also tagged as horror can be nominated as buddy reads. BRs usually are less restrictive and do not always have to follow the group it is in. E.g. In the Fantasy BR group we have SF and classics BR. In the Speculative Fiction group we have horror, classics, and general fiction BR, iirc.