Catching up on Classics (and lots more!) discussion

This thread is for a full discussion of our December 2018 New School Group Read selection, The Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le Guin.

Discuss any spoilers in this thread.

I finished this today, and while the premise is interesting, it didn't grab me the way I hoped. An envoy from an interstellar union of planets attempting to convince the people of a planet to join with them when the people of Winter, an apt nickname, are unaware they are not alone in the universe sounds so intriguing. And for the Winter populous to be a genderless species is doubly interesting. If only the book which sounded so promising was as great as the anticipation. I think this is a case of it's me, not the book that is at fault. I am not a huge sci-fi fan. Plus I read The Dispossessed by Le Guin earlier this year and was blown away. So my expectations were too high going in to reading TLHoD.

I kind of plodded through the first half trying to figure out what some of the terminology meant and trying to keep the characters straight. I did not go quickly because it was kind of a struggle. Then I got halfway through and, eureka, a major turn in the plot which interested me and I raced to the end. Once (view spoiler)[Ai was arrested and taken to prison, I could not put the book down. The friendship that developed between Ai and Estraven was engaging, but the battle with the elements and with their own stamina interested me more (hide spoiler)]. The whole second half was worth reading the book even though this only received 3 stars from me.

It was a bit different for me- I actually preferred the first half of the book. Once they started plodding around the ice planet it reminded me of those boring fantasy novels where the protagonist is on a journey and we have lots of descriptions of the scenery and weather.

I agree it was a good book but not amazing. I hoped for some more political intrigue. The whole androgynous/gender aspect was interesting, but after the author had described the idea i was left wondering if any issues had really been addressed in any meaningful way, or if it had just been put out there for the reader to contemplate. A bit harsh maybe considering the book was ahead of its time, but after all the hype I was expecting a bit more.

The book was not my preferred science fiction--I like stories set closer in the future that can be rendered more believable--Margaret Atwood's Madaddam Trilogy perhaps is my all-time favorite. And it seems pretty dated. But--putting it in the context of being published in 1969 and the gender issues it tackled--it is groundbreaking science fiction and I can understand why it won the Hugo and Nebula awards! I bet this book is on some gender studies syllabi. Like others, it took me a little awhile to get into the story--I grow tired of having to learn a bunch of definitions and jargon in order to follow a story. But I did get sucked into the story and relationship between Estravan and Ai on their journey.

Same here Sam. This isn’t my preferred reading genre, but I found the themes quite interesting.

The ice journey parts reminded me of Frankenstein. Did anyone else get this feeling?

Yes, I absolutely felt a similarity to Frankenstein in the trek across the ice.

Pink wrote: "Same here Sam. This isn’t my preferred reading genre, but I found the themes quite interesting.

The ice journey parts reminded me of Frankenstein. Did anyone else get this feeling?"

Oh, hadn't thought of that!

I finished last night. It started out slow and somewhat boring. If not for encouragement from others I would have abandoned it and added another to the DNF shelf.

Overall I am glad I finished it, the second half was much better than the first. I also agree that this story was not what I was expecting, but sic-fi isn't my most preferred genre.

Bob wrote: "I finished last night. It started out slow and somewhat boring. If not for encouragement from others I would have abandoned it and added another to the DNF shelf.

Overall I am glad I finished it, ..."

I agree with all of that, Bob! I'm not big on sci-fi and I don't know if I would have gone ahead if not for the comments from this group. The book ended up giving me several interesting concepts to think about, even if I can't say that I actually enjoyed it ;)

This book is not conventional Sci Fi, in my opinion. I am a fan of the genre, and I see UKL as a unique voice with a different appeal than that of most SF writers, especially from the '60s.

I enjoy her books because of her interest in presenting ideas and dualities in a non-judgemental way. Her work is heavy on exploring themes and concepts, and light on character and action. I love it, but some find it cold and even boring.

Because I was so disengaged with the first part of the book I may have missed this, but I didn't understand why Estraven heard his dead brother's voice when he first learns to mindspeak. I curious what people's thoughts are on this.

Jennifer wrote: "Because I was so disengaged with the first part of the book I may have missed this, but I didn't understand why Estraven heard his dead brother's voice when he first learns to mindspeak. I curious ..."

I don’t think you missed anything; while there are hints regarding Estraven’s relationship with his brother, I believe much is left for the reader to fill in, including why Estraven heard Genly as his brother’s voice. Perhaps it was the level of connection, that the level of empathy that Estraven has reached with Genly had approached that which he had only before shared with his brother? Perhaps he often talked with his brother in his mind (here I don’t mean telepathically as we might hold imaginary conversations in mind), which I think his journal was also an extension of, and so when there actually was another voice in his head he heard or interpreted it as his brother’s.

Just finished and still processing my thoughts... I am very glad to have read it! I did not mind it starting slowly but was put off by the narrator’s characterization of what is “feminine.” It did not feel right to me that a character not only from an advanced enlightened society trained to be an ambassador to alien cultures would think that way. He admits to Estraven that he viewed women almost as an alien species (not his words but the meaning conveyed to me), and yet throughout he makes generalizations that range from offensively sexist to just nonsensical.

Many of the other characters I found quite interesting and I found myself finally pulled into the world and interested once in the Fastness. I also especially enjoyed the chapters written from Estraven’s POV and I really loved his character.

Another strength of the novel is the world-building, both in conception and execution. It feels like part of a real larger whole and conveyed naturally through the characters’ perspectives.

As to the issue of gender, I appreciate the portrayal of a world where that is stripped away and everyone is simply human, and the contrasts with bisexuality thought-provoking and, to be honest, for me at times disturbing and depressing. This probably reflects more on me... Do most people feel that gender is an essential part of their identity? Is it even, as Genly says, one of the most important defining aspects of a person? Clearly, it defines much in our world, but how much of that is integral as versus imposed from the outside? For myself, I have always found the definitions uncomfortable, but whether it is because the are too narrow or it is simply me who does not fit, I could not say. I find the idea of gender-fluidity, of being either at different times, but primarily and essentially being human, very appealing.

Erin, I like the point you bring up about whether gender is an essential part of one's identity. I am sure it is different for everyone, with some feeling gender is unimportant and fluid while others feel it is one of the defining parts of themselves. I hate being boxed in as a white female which most people assume tells them all they need to know about me. While I identify as a cis gender woman, I agree with you that the idea of gender fluidity and simply identifying as human is appealing, and I wish our society was accepting of those who don't fit into traditional norms.

I have just reread this (it took about three or four chapters to remember that I had actually read it already, some ten years ago in translation) - and found it a little disappointing. Sci-fi as a genre is fine for me; I didn't find anything to dislike; yet actively liking the book also proved impossible.
The gender question which is at the heart of the book felt a little strange: it seems that the ambassador from a super-enlightened entity already absorbing 80 worlds still has the 1960s attitudes towards women. Was that necessary for a meaningful discussion? I felt talked down to, much of the time: not trusted to make my own conclusions, but presented with them ready-made. Perhaps this is simply the effect of the book's age.

Nente wrote: "I have just reread this (it took about three or four chapters to remember that I had actually read it already, some ten years ago in translation) - and found it a little disappointing. Sci-fi as a ..."

I agree with you about the narrator and I disliked the book at first until it moved beyond him constantly giving his nonsensical views on gender. I tried to imagine early on that somehow in his training and travels he’d hardly interacted with others, but then that didn’t seem to be the case either.

Erin, could you elaborate a bit on why "nonsensical" ?

Michele wrote: "Erin, could you elaborate a bit on why "nonsensical" ?"

It seemed to me that Genly viewed women almost as an alien species — I think he even says as much. Yet it seems evident that he’s worked with women — the leader of the landing party is a woman — and most people, Genly included, even have telepathic abilities, which should eliminate the “women are so unfathomable” notion if nothing else had.

Similarly, Genly repeatedly describes negative traits such as deceptiveness as feminine. Based on what? If one is going to generalize, deceptiveness seems a trait that would be common to politicians of any gender (Genly was making this observation of Estraven). My point is that Genly comes across as viewing woman as inferior, alien and largely relegated to child-rearing. All this does not make sense to me given what information we have on Genly’s background and training; he’s telepathic, has women on his first contact team, and he trained with humans beyond Homo sapiens, which should surely broaden one’s perspective on humanity.

Hm, good points...

The Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le Guin is our Revisit the Shelf book for December 2023. Please join us in reading and discussing!

Lately in my science fiction reading group we have been reading and discussing The dispossessed and essays about it; so I decided to read this other book as well so that I would have a little clearer idea. Earthsea still remains my favorite series.
Having said that I believe that in addition to setting UKLG in a specific time context, it is also necessary to pay attention to the fact that she, in addition to a story, sprinkles her plots with a series of topics that are points of reflection and it is this that in my opinion elevates her above the science fiction writer box, which in fact has always been an extremely reductive definition in my opinion. Clearly if one is then looking for the fast paced story, I would not recommend her, but if instead we prefer to season our reading with food for thought I find her perfect.
What I mean is that maybe her books are not always adequate, especially when I feel like losing myself in a story without thinking about it too much.

I just finished a few days ago and thought about the book before posting. I remember reading Dispossessed maybe 12 years ago and liking it, but honestly it has been so long that I would have to revisit my review. I felt like this one was lacking and just wasn't as engaging. I will echo some of the sentiments from the comments from 5 years ago on the first read with the group. I thought that that all the jargon/ commentary sprinkled in and world building about the society was too much. I wasn't as invested in Ai's mission/ role for being there, etc. I felt like the second half of the book really redeemed some aspects, and thought that the relationship/friendship explored between Ai and Estraven and survival attempts on the ice were the strongest part of the book. Still, I agree with GONZA that there are some thought-provoking points, but overall this was so so, 3 stars for me.

This was a reread for me and I admired Le Guin's anthropological approach to her world building and sociological LBGTQ topic. I have not read enough Le Guin to comment much on that approach. I have only read the Earthsea series and the comparable book would probably be Tehanu with feminism as the topic. I do like how Le Guin uses the approach to discuss the topic, thus exposing multitudes of readers to the topic and resulting in a an LGBTQ classic. Our other LGBTQ classic this month was Symposium and though comparing the two really doesn't work well, I find The Left Hand is more effective on topic.

I finished yesterday. I listened to it on audiobook read by George Guidall. He always does a good job but I think he really excelled on this one.
I had previously read UKL's The Dispossessed and really liked that, perhaps my favorite sci-fi (which I don't read a lot of but do occasionally).
About 3/4 of the way through this was running at about 3.5 stars for me but by the end was up to a 4.5. I rounded up to five but it's possible I will go down to four after more thinking on it. The downside is that the first half is pretty unemotional and dry as others have commented, though not uninteresting. The flluid genders or hermaphroditism and periods of sexual "heat" were really thought-provoking- amusing that they considered Mr Ai (and those of his world) as a sexual pervert because he lacked the on and off sexual phases.

The survival story of Ai and Estraven crossing the glacial area was a good adventure story, reminded me of the story of the crew of The Endurance in Antartica and of books like Robinson Crusoe, Life of Pi and The Martian.

Good to know George. I will be listening to the same narrator when the audiobook becomes available on Everand (part of Scribd) on December 21.

On Everand I found this article about The Left Hand of Darkness:
https://www.everand.com/article/38823...

We all have difficulty fitting in the social boxes assigned us. So maybe this book will speak to me. I think it will.

Cynda will back full time 2024 wrote: "On Everand I found this article about The Left Hand of Darkness:
https://www.everand.com/article/38823...

We all have difficulty fitting in the so..."

Thanks Cynda for linking this excellent article by author, Becky Chambers. I recommend it to everyone and wish to stress again how difference the approach was to gender when this book was published.

I have begun this book, but probably will not finish it by the end of the month. That's ok. Threads never close.

I have only read Ursula K. Le Guin 's earlier works recently. I really like her writing style. Her writer's voice has matured in this book. I think she is engaging and humorous, but still very thought-provoking.

I am starting tonight too Lynn. . . . Looking forward to reading your thoughts.

Approaching 2/3 complete.
Some of the ideas seem familiar, yet they are ideas still being discussed in science fiction books we still read.

* Sex
* Communication
* Travel
* Technology

Maybe I can begin to see this novel with fresher eyes.

Due to some family events, I am just now able to sit down and read. In the first few chapters I realize how much I like her style. It feels like we are hearing myths or epic hero poems from an ancient land.

I find myself admiring le Guin's creation of the planet Winter. What a perfect environment for this version of humanity. In le Guin's Hainish books, There was once a long ago race called the Hains who seeded human life on multiple planets. Sometimes the Hains would alter the genetics of the race to suit the planet, but it was so long ago that there have been natural changes along the way too.

Winter and this planet's inhabitants would be the perfect environment for such a unique version of humanity. There are two limiting factors: extreme cold and the fact that there are no large meat producing animals. The cold and lack of dense foods greatly stress a person's body. Sexual reproduction is very "costly" to a body, so voila, they are only seasonally sexual. Brilliant set-up with a great idea for conservation of energy..

Oh this is a reread for me. I read it the first time 35 ish years ago. I have read other Hainish Cycle books/stories. Reading the comments about having to learn the unique terms used worried me a bit, but it turns out I can remember enough to make sense of those terms. It is just pure story for me.

Good scientific science fiction read, Lynn. I am practicing scientific thinking, so what you say helps.

I am more familiar with social reads of science fiiction--utopian/dystopian reads. Here we see how gender, sex, communication, travel, and technology not aspects of utopian or dystopian societies, instead just are what they are.

I appreciated most how the confederation introduced it self to possible members, allowing confederation members and possible members to meet and familiarize each not her on other ways of being.

I like to think that we make progress, yet social movements are never straightforward. So this book still has value now, maybe less later, and maybe more again even later.

The 25th Anniversary edition I am reading includes an Afterword by the author. She walks us through the challenge of writing in English about a non gendered world, and the effect of her choices on pronouns. Also a sample rewrite of chapter 1, using more neutral language options.

The concept of an Ekumen of Known Worlds is a recurring Utopian dream, isn’t it? My brain jumped straight to The Federation in the Star Wars universe, and then the United Nations in real history. Doesn’t every generation dream of a path to world peace?

The instant communication technology used by the Envoy with the Ekumen sounds a lot like text messaging.

It always surprises me when a book written so long ago effectively predicts the future.

Jerilyn I do not know very much about science fiction, yet I did get the over all sense that even though some themes or elements are used in utopian/dystopian stories and novels that these themes are more neutral, less about utopian(ideal)/dystopian(less than ideal), instead just are. The reader is free to decide--and also to just accept, just enjoy as the readers' brain do the heavy work of understanding later or never.

Cynda will back full time 2024 wrote: "I am more familiar with social reads of science fiiction--utopian/dystopian reads. Here we see how gender, sex, communication, travel, and technology not aspects of utopian or dystopian societies, ..."

I like how Le Guin is able to focus on a particular social aspect or two in her novels. For instance, The Dispossessed is essentially capitalism vs communism, but each system arose because of the environmental factors on each planet. She will set up causal relationships between the environment and the resulting social systems.

In The Word for World Is Forest there is one planet with basically one life form which is visited by humanoids. This life form is one enormous forest/plant with interconnected roots that provide a means of communication. Everything that happens to the humanoids is a result of being on a planet with this unique life form. Along the way there is an exploration of personality types in the human group.

oooh we see this with Frank Herbert too. Dune, the spice planet, will have a different social system than Caladen the ocean world. The most extreme example is probably the Guild that has actually mutated physically so that they can control the faster-than-light time jumps they make.

Jerilyn wrote: "The instant communication technology used by the Envoy with the Ekumen sounds a lot like text messaging.

It always surprises me when a book written so long ago effectively predicts the future."

One of the reasons le Guin is award-winning is the way she developed and explained her faster-than-light communication system - the ansible - in her novels. She created the word. The idea and word were later used by many authors.

I agree that the Ekumen are much like the Federation. The difference would be that when the first few planets of humanoids took to space they found other distantly related cousin humanoids. The Ekumen are kind of looking for their relatives that were "seeded" on other planets by the Hain so long ago. I think that the word Ekumen is deliberately meant to sound like the word human to emphasize that commonality of origin.

Ekumen is just a respelling (reflecting the Greek original) of a Latin loan word in English, meaning. General or Universal, originally referring to the habitable world. It is probably best known in the form Ecumenical, commonly referred to in relational to “universal councils” of the Catholic Church. A good dictionary should provide the full etymology and range of uses in English.

Star Trek’s Federation is a logical successor to science fiction stories involving multi-species civilizations pioneered in science fiction of the 1920s and 1930s, notably Edmond Hamilton’s Interstellar Patrol short stories and E. E. Smith’s Galactic Patrol stories, better known as the Lensman series, but also called “The History of Civilization.”

Ian wrote: "Ekumen is just a respelling (reflecting the Greek original) of a Latin loan word in English, meaning. General or Universal, originally referring to the habitable world. It is probably best known in..."

Very cool Ian. An author I have meant to read, but have not gotten to yet is Edmond Hamilton. It sounds interesting.

Have you noticed there are no nuclear families in the book? I guess that is why they have hearths.

I wonder if le Guin meant for the hearth/communal structure of daily life to somehow be a reason for why they had never had warfare in the history of the planet Winter?

It is also interesting that there seems to be a clash between the traditional (hearths) and modernizing/progressive (inspectors/oligarchy) cultures.

Organization by “hearths” is well known in human societies, including those with kinship relations — and words — confusing to those accustomed to the impoverished vocabulary of English in this regards. (David Weber’s War God series has some fun with this in the recurring theme of Dwarvish words for “intimate” connections which seem utterly remote to everyone else.)

Edmond Hamilton wrote a very great deal during a very long career. I suggest his Wikipedia article and bibliography.

His output varied in sophistication by market: at one point he was regularly turning out formulaic “Captain Future” short novels for juvenile-oriented pulps, at another producing evocative mood pieces. And even Captain Future had moments of inspiration. And DC is still using plots and concepts he devised for Superman.

I got the obvious linguistic connection from Ekumen to Ecumenism.
Likewise, I assumed Terra was like our Earth, but as the Envoy shared more about his home planet it doesn’t fit.
Thank you Lynne for your note about the ansible. Interesting.
My questions and comments may seem simplistic to SciFi fans. Forgive my relative ignorance as I delve into the genre late in life.

A good place to start with Edmond Hamilton is the collection The Best of Edmond Hamilton, edited by Leigh Brackett, a fine science fiction writer, screenwriter, and, not so incidentally, his wife.

Cheaper, with some longer works, and overlapping, is The Edmond Hamilton Megapack, with contents from 1930 through 1962.

Terra is the conventional science fiction term for Earth / the Earth, Latin being somehow more inclusive than a vernacular word, and less directly associated with the soil in English. The inhabitants of Terra are Terrans. (This assumes that non-Europeans would consider it a neutral term: but that didn’t come up much in the 1920s and 1930s, when many conventional terms in science fiction were being established.)

E.E. Smith was something of an outlier on this. In the Lensman stories he used an alternative Latin word, Tellus (as in Tellus Mater, Mother Earth), and its native inhabitants are Tellurians.

Earth, or “the Earth,” is of course a frequent alternative, sometimes modified as “Urth.”

Ian wrote: "A good place to start with Edmond Hamilton is the collection The Best of Edmond Hamilton, edited by Leigh Brackett, a fine science fiction writer, screenwriter, and, not so incidentally, his wife.
..."

I might get the megapack. I have a few of those for other authors. I tend to use manybooks.net They have public domain pdfs. I have seen Hamilton's name on several selections, but I tend to just download one at a time. I finish one before going back for another. I just haven't read his yet.

One author I really enjoy is H. Beam Piper. In the last two years I read the Paratime Series which was fun.

Lyn. I saw your comment above. I was hoping to formulate a better more savvy response. I can only give my honest one. So here we go. I delve into science fiction as an also-read genre. I have read the first two of the Earth sea series along with this book and a couple of other short selections. I do see the social aspects based on gender/sex in the first two Earthsea: The young man goes on a journey while the young woman comes out of the Earth. I will continue on slowly through Earthsea. I am intrigued enough to continue. Even by this whole-world book The Left Hand of Darkness. I will continue on.

Has anyone done a comparison of the political/government structures in this book, to those in earth’s world history? The social order and worldview seem to be formed or limited by the form of government. Or could it be the other way around?

Jerilyn wrote: "Has anyone done a comparison of the political/government structures in this book, to those in earth’s world history? The social order and worldview seem to be formed or limited by the form of gover..."

My intuitive response is that the Orgoreyn government - that owns everything at death and assigns all jobs to all citizens - seems very much like Communism - think Cold War Soviet. . I can't help but think Commissar everytime I read Commensal. The Commensality Committee Government makes me think of a Politburo. This style of government is a new development.

The Karhide Monarchy seems to be an absolute Monarchy without a parliament. The description of the Palace buildings in Erhenrang made me think of the Forbidden City of the Chinese Emperors. This is the more traditional form of government, but with more concentration of power than seen in the past.

I think those are very broad comparisons though, not meant to be exact duplicates of Earth systems. For a scholarly paper on all this I am sure other members can be more exact. These are just the impressions I get as I read. Of course people in other countries might react differently.