Middle East/North African Lit discussion

Please share your thoughts and recommendations for reading about Baghdad or Babylon .
there will be a poll within few days and we will start reading in February .

Note
Please be aware that nominators will be the book discussion leaders .
Thanks .

The Gardener of Baghdad

Ahmad wrote: "The Gardener of Baghdad

"

Please share your thoughts about how this book discusses the city of Baghdad and its history .

A story that goes back and forth between the forties, fifties and present date.
From the events and political changes you get to learn more about a time of transit from royalty to socialism to nationalism.

I've mentioned it in the discussion "plan 2019", but I also include it here, which is the correct place.

There is a book of poetry that I haven't read yet but that is among my wishes, Baghdad: The City in Verse. It goes across the city in time and its history through its poetry, starting in the 700s and ending in 2012.

Niledaughter wrote: "Ahmad wrote: "The Gardener of Baghdad

"

Please share your thoughts about how this book discusses the city of Baghdad and its history ."

I would be interested in reading this book!

I nominate The Code of Hammurabi by Hammurabi, the sixth king of Babylon. It is one of the first written codes of law in recorded history. It’s also only 48 pages so fear not.

Here’s a link to the wiki bio of Hammurabi, which I found fascinating.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammu...

Here’s also a link to a friend’s review that sold me:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

About Baghdad, maybe: Consorts of the Caliphs: Women and the Court of Baghdad? I haven't read it, but the Library of Arabic Litterature usually makes good books, and this one seems as much about the historical as about the fantasmatic city of Baghdad. On the other end, I really don't know how to lead a discussion...
Also, I would like very much to read A City in Verse.

I'm in with Consorts of the Caliphs: Women and the Court of Baghdad I'm very interested and is in my endless list of future wishes.

Carol wrote: "I nominate The Code of Hammurabi by Hammurabi, the sixth king of Babylon. It is one of the first written codes of law in recorded history. It’s also only 48 pages so ..."

I was in Iraq several weeks ago, and my brother arranged for me to go to the Iraq National Museum. It was an unforgettable experience. I got to feast my eyes on statues and steles that I had previously only seen in pictures. Among them was the stele of Hammurabi giving the code to Marduk. I just couldn't believe I was actually seeing it all.

I'm not ashamed to admit I cried when I saw the face of the Lady of Warka.

Tamara wrote: "Carol wrote: "I nominate The Code of Hammurabi by Hammurabi, the sixth king of Babylon. It is one of the first written codes of law in recorded history. It’s also onl..."

Oh, man! That must have been a stunning experience, Tamara. I can’t even imagine. I think I would have spent a great deal of time perfectly still and silently staring.

The gentleman my brother had asked to accompany me must have thought I was crazy. I gasped with every turn of my head. When I saw the Lady of Warka, I lost it. The poor guy didn't know what to do. He thought I was upset. In between gasps, I kept repeating, "I'm okay. I'm okay. I'm just so overwhelmed to see all of this." He replied, "The next time you come, I'll take you to Babylon. You can have a really good cry when you see that!" We both laughed.

I don't know if I will ever get to go back to Iraq. But if I do, Babylon is on the top of my list.

Tamara wrote: "The gentleman my brother had asked to accompany me must have thought I was crazy. I gasped with every turn of my head. When I saw the Lady of Warka, I lost it. The poor guy didn't know what to do. ..."

Unfortunately most of the artifacts on display at the museum nowadays are replicas and not the original. Was shocked when I was accompanied by a professor from Baghdad university and explained once asked.
As for Babylon, nothing is authentic there anymore.
You will get to see much more and displayed more professionally in the louvre, Berlin, The Met and the British museum in London.

Ahmad wrote: "Unfortunately most of the artifacts on display at the museum nowadays are replicas and not the original. Was shocked when I was accompanied by a professor from Baghdad university and explained once asked.
As for Babylon, nothing is authentic there anymore..."

That's so very sad.

I knew Ishtar's gate was in Berlin but I had no idea about the rest of what you said. I saw the displays in the British museum when I was there a few months ago. But I was more excited to see the displays in Iraq.

I thought a lot of the stuff that had been looted from the Iraq museum had been located and returned there. If what is on display there are replicas, does that mean the originals that were there still have not been found?

Tamara wrote: "Ahmad wrote: "Unfortunately most of the artifacts on display at the museum nowadays are replicas and not the original. Was shocked when I was accompanied by a professor from Baghdad university and ..."
To be honest there is no official answer to your question. When we asked they said that 2/3 of what was looted was returned and displayed. The Professor I was with said that not more than a third was ever restored.
That is the sad reality about the war and what followed.

You're right. It is the sad reality of war.

But to be honest, I think it is so much more exciting to see the artifacts from Ancient Mesopotamia and Ancient Sumer displayed in a museum in Iraq than it is to see them on display in a European capital--even if the ones in Iraq are replicas. I think they have so much more meaning in their places of origin. But that's just my opinion.

Either way, I appreciate you letting me know. Thanks.

I didn’t want to be cynical when I saw your initial message, Tamara, but I was pleasantly shocked that there was anything left in terms of ancient artifacts in display in Iraqi museums, given the years of war and the behavior of collectors in a time of crisis. What I love about this group is that I can share your joy alongside the facts provided by Ahmad. Thanks to you both.

I like the way this thread is moving even though it made me feel so much sorrow .

In the following lines , I am quoting Tamara from anther discussion :)

Tamara wrote: "Yes, I'd be happy to recommend them. I've read them both and they're excellent. My hesitation stems from the fact that I'm not sure I'll have the time to moderate. But if either gets selected, I will make the time to moderate. So, no worries.

I recommend

Babylon: Mesopotamia and the Birth of Civilization

Baghdad: City of Peace, City of Blood
..."

Now we will see we will make one poll for both cities or two polls .

We have only six books , so we will have one one poll with one book to read in January .

*Please note that authors can not lead the discussion of their books if any was selected .

https://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/1...

FYI: The Code of Hammurabi is available for free online at the Project Gutenberg.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/17150...

To all those who sent me a pm asking where they can get The Gardener of Baghdad, please find below:



ebook Format:

Amazon USA: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00M91LJGW
Amazon UK: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00M91LJGW/
Amazon Canada: https://www.amazon.ca/Gardener-Baghda...
Amazon Australia: https://www.amazon.com.au/Gardener-Ba...
Barnes & Noble https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-...
iTunes https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/the-...
Googleplay https://play.google.com/store/books/d...
Kobo https://www.kobo.com/ww/en/ebook/the-...
Other Retailers https://www.books2read.com/u/m0xyPJ

Audiobook:

Audible USA https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0784MWY47/
Audible UK https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B077S3Q2RF/
Audible Canada https://www.audible.ca/pd/The-Gardene...
Audible Australia https://www.audible.com.au/pd/The-Gar...
Nook Audio https://www.nookaudiobooks.com/audiob...
Scribid https://www.scribd.com/audiobook/3641...
Googleplay https://play.google.com/store/audiobo...
Apple iTunes https://itunes.apple.com/us/audiobook...
Audiobooks https://www.audiobooks.com/audiobook/...
Kobo https://www.kobo.com/ww/en/audiobook/...
Overdrive https://www.overdrive.com/media/36959...
Libro FM https://libro.fm/audiobooks/978150945...
stories https://www.estories.com/audiobook/18...
Downpour https://www.downpour.com/the-gardener...

Paperback:

Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1515118878
Barnes & Noble: https://m.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-ga...
Chapters Indigo Canada: https://www.chapters.indigo.ca/en-ca/...

Ahmad wrote: "To all those who sent me a pm asking where they can get The Gardener of Baghdad, please find below:


ebook Format:


Amazon USA: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00M91LJGW
Amazon UK: ht..."

Please refrain from re-posting this message ever again anywhere in the group , I deleted the repetition . We made an exception for this one posted here , otherwise please stick to the authors discussion board where you have a space for self-promoting as you posted about your other book before .Also for the questions you receive in pm , please answer in pm. Thank you for your understanding .

I think it is best that the mod should include info about each of the books and its availability to avoid alll inquiries, and not just post the names of the novels.

Ahmad wrote: "I think it is best that the mod should include info about each of the books and its availability to avoid all inquiries, and not just post the names of the novels."

Thanks for the note but we do not consider it as our responsibility , members can buy the book or use libraries ; it is up to them , and if there were inquiries , they were not addressed here for anyone to help .

As a member - author or not , it is pleasure having you involved in our discussions , your conversation with Tamara was touching for anyone to read . Please let us hear from you as a member more .

Niledaughter wrote: "Ahmad wrote: "I think it is best that the mod should include info about each of the books and its availability to avoid all inquiries, and not just post the names of the novels."

Thanks for the no..." Whenever there is something I feel I can I add, I will do that right away.

Niledaughter, I just finished reading 'Babylon: Mesopotamia and the Birth of Civilization', by Paul Kriwaczek, a superb book and I thank you for recommending it.

It was useful to see an additional perspective on how the Moses narrative was pre-dated by Mesopotamian tales, and to see how the evolution of the 'Noah story' was essentially a re-written version (some would say a plagiarism) of the Epic of Gilgamesh -- although the author did not mention that there have been several dozen 'Noah stories' which resulted from the global instability of the melting ice of the Last Glacial Maximum, what the scholars call the "Younger Dryas" between 10,800 BCE and 9,600 BCE.

It was also interesting to see how 'global warming' occurred about 1,200 BCE and its effects.

It would have been interesting if he had inserted a few more 'natural events' -- which explain so much of history, and indeed which were often responsible for the human creation of so many deities.

Although I have done a large amount of reading on the history of the Middle East, the author brought many things into perspective. It was particularly informative to trace the origins of monotheism to the Assyrians, and to realize what a minor reality the Hebrews were -- and to realize that Assyria has really been denigrated (like the ancient Egyptians) presumably in order to promote the deities and alleged superiority of the Hebrews and Christians.

It was fascinating to see what a magnificent culture Mesopotamia (and Babylon) had created, including how women were treated as equals so many thousands of years ago ... compared to the modern creeds, what I call 'the modern religions of the desert' (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) which all subordinate women... unabashedly in all of their scriptures, and in practice.

Of course, it was also delightful to observe how so many ethnic groups lived together in harmony, being able to retain their own customs and deities -- quite different from the religious intolerance in the Middle East today. Interesting, it seems that the secular society, particularly in the US, is responsible for maintaining amity among the religions.

One of the most fascinating realizations was that writing was not created by the intelligentsia, but by the common people who abbreviated the cuneiform in order to communicate more readily for their daily responsibilities without having to spend years to memorize the symbols.

It was a fascinating book. Again thanks. Now I'll go pick up the other one you recommended, 'Baghdad: City of Peace, City of Blood'

The poll is over , the winner is The Gardener of Baghdad , we need a volunteer to lead the discussion in February .

Charles wrote: "Niledaughter, I just finished reading 'Babylon: Mesopotamia and the Birth of Civilization', by Paul Kriwaczek, a superb book and I thank you for recommending it.

It was useful to see an additional..."

Great analysis, Charles. You highlighted some memorable points. I'm so glad you enjoyed the book. I look forward to reading your thoughts on Baghdad: City of Peace, City of Blood.

I missed Charles' post ! Thanks Tamara for highlighting it , I will get back to it again .

******
Niledaughter wrote: "The poll is over , the winner is The Gardener of Baghdad , we need a volunteer to lead the discussion in February ."

The second book in poll is Baghdad: The City in Verse , Kenza will you be able to lead the discussion if no one volunteered for The Gardener of Baghdad ?

Niledaughter wrote: "I missed Charles' post ! Thanks Tamara for highlighting it , I will get back to it again .

******
Niledaughter wrote: "The poll is over , the winner is The Gardener of Baghdad , we..."

Thank you Niledaughter, I've never led the discussion of a book in this kind of context, I would not know how to do it, so sorry.

Kenza wrote: "Thank you Niledaughter, I've never led the discussion of a book in this kind of context, I would not know how to do it, so sorry..."

I hope you will change your mind :)

Who will be interested in leading the discussions of one of these books in order :
The Gardener of Baghdad
Baghdad: The City in Verse
Consorts of the Caliphs: Women and the Court of Baghdad .. Fl ?

Niledaughter wrote: "Kenza wrote: "Thank you Niledaughter, I've never led the discussion of a book in this kind of context, I would not know how to do it, so sorry..."

I hope you will change your mind :)

Who will be ..."

I have not even participated in any discussions yet, but later on I may be encouraged to lead any other discussion, once I have had more participation.

I will be happy to read Baghdad: The City in Verse or Consorts of the Caliphs: Women and the Court of Baghdad, or both, so I adapt to the decision of the majority.

Niledaughter wrote: "Kenza wrote: "Thank you Niledaughter, I've never led the discussion of a book in this kind of context, I would not know how to do it, so sorry..."

I hope you will change your mind :)

Who will be ..."

Hi Niledaughter, a bit like Kenza I feel unable to lead a discussion, it is not a thing I have ever done, and it feels a bit last minute, I would need a bit of reading and research time! Also I can't read Arabic or actually write proper English... I can give it a go if you really don't find anybody else, but maybe not start on the 1st of February, you would have to give me a bit of time!
Nevertheless, Consorts of the Caliphs should be a very interesting book and different from most of this group's usual reading: it is a chronicle by a 13th century historian about a subject usually ignored, and it is quite short! (273 pages in a bilingual edition)

Also, it is free if you read ebooks in Arabic: http://www.libraryofarabicliterature....

Reminder to everyone , here are the top chosen books by the poll in case someone would like to volunteer .

The Gardener of Baghdad
Baghdad: The City in Verse
Consorts of the Caliphs: Women and the Court of Baghdad
******
Fl wrote: "Also, it is free if you read ebooks in Arabic: https/?book=12596"

Thanks !
Fl wrote: "I can give it a go if you really don't find anybody else, but maybe not start on the 1st of February, you would have to give me a bit of time!.."

Hopefully someone will raise his hand :)
We would appreciate you doing this if you decide to take the step.


N.B
will February 7th or 15th be suitable for the next read ?

Thank you so much Charles for reading and sharing your thoughts , as usual ...pleasure to read :)

Charles wrote: "It was particularly informative to trace the origins of monotheism to the Assyrians, and to realize what a minor reality the Hebrews were -- and to realize that Assyria has really been denigrated (like the ancient Egyptians) presumably in order to promote the deities and alleged superiority of the Hebrews and Christians. ."

This is one of the most interesting topics for me , it reminded of a book I want to read لغز عشتار: الألوهة المؤنثة وأصل الدين والأسطورة means : The mystery of a href="https://www.britannica.com/topic/Isht... Divine feminine and origin of religion and myth , by Firas al-Sawwah . I do not think there is an English edition for the book to talk more :(

So how about Baghdad: City of Peace, City of Blood
Tamara ?

Niledaughter wrote: "So how about Baghdad: City of Peace, City of Blood
Tamara ?"

That wasn't one of the top choices in the poll, was it? Other than Charles who said he planned to read it, is anyone else interested in reading it?

It was number four , we did not have any volunteers to lead any of the first three books.
Six members voted for it .

It's been a year since I last read it. I'd have to read it again and prepare. What would be the start date and finish date?

Whatever suits you .
In February , 7th or 15th will be appropriate?

If I start on the 15th, when will the finish date be?

Sorry for the late reply . March 15 or 31 ?
Our threads remain open anyway .

I'll start it on the 15th and continue to monitor it for comments and discussion.

Thanks :)

I came across a fascinating article about a recently pieced together fragment of the Babylonian epic Gilgamesh: A New English Version.

For those of you who don’t know anything about the epic, the wild man Enkidu is created by the gods to be a partner to Gilgamesh. He is initiated into society by engaging in sex with the sacred priestess, Shamhat. When I wrote my novel, Gilgamesh of Uruk, I based it on existing manuscripts which had Shamhat and Enkidu engaging in sex for one week. Enkidu learns to speak and declares he will go to Uruk and fight Gilgamesh. Shamhat calms him down, then takes him to live with shepherds and teaches him to eat and drink like a human before they set off for Uruk to meet Gilgamesh.

This article explains how a newly discovered fragment puts a different spin on things. Shamhat and Enkidu engage in sex for one week. Enkidu wants to go to Uruk and beat up on Gilgamesh, etc. etc. as in the original. But this new fragment has Shamhat and Enkidu engaging in sex for a second week, after which time Shamhat teaches Enkidu about social obligations, about living in harmony with your community, about responsibility toward your fellow man. Then she takes him to Uruk.

This suggests that for the Babylonians, transformation from a wild man/animal to that of a civilized human is a gradual maturation. Enkidu learns to communicate after the first week of sexual intercourse but he is still half animal—wants to use brute force. It is only after the second week of sexual intercourse that he learns what it means to live as a civilized human being in a community of humans.

I find this absolutely fascinating. Over 4,000 years ago, the Babylonians understood that, as the article says, “Social life is not about raw strength and assertions of power, but also about communal duties and responsibilities.”

Awesome!

I just wish they had made this discovery before I wrote my novel :)

I’m linking the article about the discovery for your reading pleasure. Sorry for the length of this post, but I get such a kick out of this stuff.

https://aeon.co/ideas/between-gods-an...

joining the conversation late, my apologies! i thought you'd chosen The Gardener of Baghdad which got the most votes but then somehow Baghdad: City of Peace, City of Blood became the choice for February?

Robin wrote: "joining the conversation late, my apologies! i thought you'd chosen The Gardener of Baghdad which got the most votes but then somehow [book:Baghdad: City of Peace, City of Blood|187..."

No discussion leader volunteered for it at the time, if you would like to lead a discussion for it then I see no problem in making it as a group read .