Georgette Heyer Fans discussion

For open spoilers and final conclusions.

I'll be honest & say this was my least favourite of Gh's Regencies other than her final three. In my thirties anyway. In my younger years I wasn't a big fan of The Foundling - which I now love.

So my opinion may well have changed. :)

I got a jump on the February read because I needed something light. Like you, I never enjoyed this one much--the angry heroine problem. But on this reading I came to respect it for the complex and rather unusual plot, and the chances Heyer takes with the story. My review here: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

This is one of my least fav Heyers, mainly due to the heroes and heroines, and the consistently bitter feeling of the book.

I remember Serena being so angry, and Fanny so helpless and overwhelmed. They do balance each other, somewhat, so there is that.

Same for the heroes, Ivo is my least favourite of any GH hero because I find him so unlikable and ruthless, and the Major was just OK.

Here's to seeing how the re-read holds up.

This year's rereads seem dogged by coincidence for me! Last month I had reread TG earlier and just today had a long discussion on BT!

In contrast to many, I love this book! Love Serena's strength's, love that Ivo doesn't try to forcefit her into the unmarried regency yound woman stereotype, love the light touch on what is a harsh reality of women, even rich women, having so little control over their lives. Fanny's plight at being married to a man older than her father, Serena's future under control of someone who might have reason to treat her terribly...and of course the politics. Love them. One of the few Heyers that is overtly physical too.

This is one I've been ambivalent about. I never liked Ivo's 'cave man' attitudes, but on the other hand, he could laugh at himself, which disarmed me. I also very much liked how Heyer turned the 'younger second wife being a witch' trope on its head, making Fanny and Serena form a genuine and caring relationship.

I prefer this one to the other Bath book, that has one of my least favorite plots, the cunning social climber.

I really feel for Fanny. Married to a man older than her father, into a milieu that is completely outside her ability or training to understand - thankfully Serena didn't resent her (at least not obviously) and was able to support her.

I've always wondered what the fight was that had Serena break her engagement to Ivo - it was clear from the beginning that they knew and understood each other very well.

Add me to the group that didn't care for this the one and only time I read it. I didn't like Serena (especially for being sooo dense about the major), I didn't like Ivo, either. My snide thoughts at the end were that they deserved each other!

Sherwood wrote, “I also very much liked how Heyer turned the ‘younger second wife being a witch’ trope on its head . . .”

Me, too—plus the complication of having two potential heroes, and the daring move to make the straightforwardly virtuous characters fall in love with each other when technically they shouldn’t! Heyer was really pushing the envelope in this one—not always to the reader’s benefit.

I've read it more than once, but my opinion of them both as unpleasant hasn't changed. So I probably won't re-read it, or get it from Audible- even with Sian Phillips reading it!

I'm not a fan of Ivo but he's the only one who can handle Serena. I like her for being a strong woman. Ivo is rather cruel to that young lady, what's her name? Emily? He's not my favorite hero. Fanny drives me crazy and I could never live with her. I'm glad she found a husband who will be devoted to her and appreciate her. She deserves it but that doesn't mean I like her.

This is one of my first Heyer books I read but it doesn't quite make the cut of top favorites.

I like Serena and Fanny and their relationship, how it is close despite how different they are. I love the Major and all the minor characters. Ivo is not very sympathetic and I dislike his relationship (if you can call it that) with Emily.

I don't remember anything about this book, so I am jumping into it now. I should have more of an opinion by tomorrow.

Fanny and Serena's friendship is a part of the book that I really liked.

I've read BT only once but remember it fairly well, at least the main characters. I was delighted when Hector came back into Serena's life and disappointed when it didn't work out for them. Ivo seemed downright obnoxious, but maybe he needed a wife who would stand up to him. I foresee a fiery but not necessarily rocky future for them--as Benedick says to Beatrice at the end of Much Ado About Nothing, "We are too wise to woo peaceably."

I'm not far it, but this time it struck me how much Serena loses due to the laws of inheritance. It's her home, I'm sure she would have managed it capably, yet it goes to a diffident cousin she & her late father hardly know.

That's true, Carol. We tend to focus on her temper and not as much on how much she has lost or how confining her current circumstances are. Yes, she's not going hungry, but everything that was formerly part of her life has been stripped away from her suddenly.

That is such a hard piece of luck for her, and for any children unable to stay in their home.
Although she did understand that it would happen, it still must have really stung. If she stayed near her old home, her spirit would have slowly been eaten away. I am glad she realized that, and that they both moved to Bath.

She may have thought it might happen in some misty future, but her father died unexpectedly and while in his prime--no time for her to prepare! If Fanny had had a son, Serena wouldn't have had to leave even if her father died. Rotten luck all around.

I respect the fact that Heyer invented two characters who are not as easily likable as some of her others, yet I still became invested in what happened to them. Serena was brought up more like a son than a daughter and her father may have done her a disservice by encouraging her strong traits but I like her for them. Only someone like Ivo would do for her because he admires that strength and will allow her to be herself. It takes the Major to make her realise her own strengths and failings. The fierce nature of their underlying passion is also compelling for me.

Jenny wrote: "I respect the fact that Heyer invented two characters who are not as easily likable as some of her others, yet I still became invested in what happened to them. Serena was brought up more like a so..."

So very true - I think her father put her in a tough position, raising her more like a son and companion. Makes her more relatable to modern women, but certainly limited her potential marriage pool! How many gentlemen of the period were self-assured enough to contemplate marriage to such a strong woman- without getting into that creepy realm of wanting to “tame” or “break” her, like a damned horse!

Well, I just finished, and my four star rating still holds, maybe 3.5-4, since I wouldn’t call it a favorite Heyer. I’m still not sure how I feel about Ivo and Serena’s constant sparring except to say I, personally, would find it exhausting! But great humor and secondary characters, I enjoyed it.

I could forgive the quarrelling - after all, I love Charles and Sophie, and they quarrel a lot. But I cannot forgive Ivo for involving the poor innocent, and beneath-his-class Emily, with no thought for her, just to punish Serena. It is repellent behaviour.

Susan in NC wrote: "Jenny wrote: "I respect the fact that Heyer invented two characters who are not as easily likable as some of her others, yet I still became invested in what happened to them. Serena was brought up ..."

Indeed. And also Ivo will want her to be a political hostess which is one of the few arenas where she will be able to take part in intelligent conversations women were often excluded from. He admires her intelligence which was a rarity. He is not only undaunted by her strength he realises he would be bored stupid without it.

Rosina wrote: "I could forgive the quarrelling - after all, I love Charles and Sophie, and they quarrel a lot. But I cannot forgive Ivo for involving the poor innocent, and beneath-his-class Emily, with no though..."
it was rough from Emily's point of view, I can't disagree with you. But he only got deliberately mean when he realized it wouldn't work and he needed her to jilt him. And up until then, she was happy with the thought of her life as his wife and he thought it didn't matter.

While I don't find Ivo very likeable, I do really like Serena. She is a warm-hearted, strong-willed woman who likes to go for 5 mile walks and she is enthusiastic and wildly interested in everyone around her. I would love to meet her in person.
as a Heroine, she's not as fun as Sophie, but then who is?

Jackie wrote: "While I don't find Ivo very likeable, I do really like Serena. She is a warm-hearted, strong-willed woman who likes to go for 5 mile walks and she is enthusiastic and wildly interested in everyone ..."

Very good points, it just struck me, how much of the humor in both books is derived from the reactions both strong heroines, strong in large part because (gasp), both women had loving fathers who treated them as reasonable, capable human beings, anyway, the humor is derived from reactions they and their activities spark in the members of the ton!

If they were sons, not daughters, no one would have batted an eye (of course, Sam not Sophie, and Steve not Serena, would’ve probably done a lousy job as political hostesses for their dear papas, and the old farts wouldn’t have enjoyed gossiping and regaling them with stories as much)...

I feel the same way about Ivo's horrible treatment of Emily - engaging her with no regard for her feelings to try to embarrass Serena or to make her jealous, then intimidating and driving Emily to ruin her reputation.

What does Ivo learn over the course of the book? I feel like he is the same Ivo that he was at the beginning of the book.

Serena learns a lot about herself, and grows as a person, and then in the last scene, seems to end up with the same old bossy Ivo.

Jackie wrote: "But he only got deliberately mean when he realized it wouldn't work and he needed her to jilt him. And up until then, she was happy with the thought of her life as his wife and he thought it didn't matter."

I don't think Ivo can ever have believed that Emily would make him a good wife - she was too easily cowed, and ignorant, and would have been overwhelmed by the position of Marchioness. Anyone with any empathy would have realised that she was only 'happy' because she was pleasing her mother and getting away from her tyranny, without appreciating that there are better places to jump than into the fire.

I think that we must remember that Ivo knew it was his duty to marry and thought that he had forever lost his true soulmate. It is only when he realises that there might be a slender chance that both he and Serena might be able to attain that happiness he thought lost, that he is deliberately cruel. And although he is slightly Machiavellian in the way he thinks the end justifies the means, Emily is not completely innocent. Her feelings are in no way engaged, she wants the status and superiority this alliance will bring her and in treating her cruelly now he only reveals how their natures are completely incompatible, allowing her to escape a union that would have been disastrous for both.

Agree with Jenny. (Also, it gives us that hilarious scene when Emily finally grows a spine and roundly rejects Ivo, totally defeating that horrible mother.)

I've finished. While reading, I couldn't remember why this one isn't a favourite - until we get to the cruel treatment of Emily.

I just don't like Ivo. Critterbee & Rosina have already summarised my reasons.

A favourite scene (& my bookmark has fallen out) is the wonderful Mrs Floore arriving at Serena & Fanny's. If that quote isn't already on GR, I'm going to add it.

Another is Serena's handling of catching up with Emily & Gerard. Brilliant scene.

Reading all these comments, I’m struck by the many different ways Heyer uses to play with and challenge our sympathies in this book:

• We ought to sympathize with Emily but she’s so shallow and devoted to appearances that I can’t sympathize with her much.

• We ought to sympathize with Serena for all she’s lost and like her for her kindness, but her anger and repeated reckless behavior make it hard.

• We ought to sympathize with Ivo for losing the love of his life but he brought it on himself with pridefulness and lack of caring about others.

• We ought to sympathize with Fanny and Hector for their hopeless love, but they are, after all, sneaking around behind the back of the woman they both putatively love more than anyone else in the world.

It’s all very interesting, but also distancing. In a genre novel like this I always want someone to root for, and perhaps Mrs. Floore is the least complicated! Okay, I adore Ned Goring without qualification. I hope he ends up with someone more worthy of him than Emily.

Abigail wrote: "Reading all these comments, I’m struck by the many different ways Heyer uses to play with and challenge our sympathies in this book:

• We ought to sympathize with Emily but she’s so shallow and d..."

I am less sympathetic to Fanny & Hector on this read - & far more sympathetic to Serena. The loss of a father who was more like a friend, being surrounded by people of lesser intelligence (except for Hector who doesn't understand her) & such a dawdling life. No wonder she takes up Mrs Floore who is nobody's fool!

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "I am less sympathetic to Fanny & Hector on this read - & far more sympathetic to Serena. The loss of a father who was more like a friend, being surrounded by people of lesser intelligence (except for Hector who doesn't understand her) & such a dawdling life. No wonder she takes up Mrs Floore who is nobody's fool!"

Refreshing, isn't she?

Critterbee❇ wrote: "Refreshing, isn't she?"

In some ways she is very modern.

Karlyne in the first thread;

Teresa! He's doesn't make it easy to like him, at all. But one thing I do like about him is that his rudeness isn't directed at those who are powerless or "inferior" in social standing to himself but rather at those who are, or ought to be, able to defend themselves. He's not a bully, at least!

He bullies Gerard, who is slight in build, a minor & not too bright.

Sherwood wrote: "Agree with Jenny. (Also, it gives us that hilarious scene when Emily finally grows a spine and roundly rejects Ivo, totally defeating that horrible mother.)"

Yes, that was great!

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "I've finished. While reading, I couldn't remember why this one isn't a favourite - until we get to the cruel treatment of Emily.

I just don't like Ivo. Critterbee & Rosina have already summarised..."

Oh, yes - I love the way Serena dresses down Gerard - but only behind closed doors! She’s magnificent!

Abigail wrote: "Reading all these comments, I’m struck by the many different ways Heyer uses to play with and challenge our sympathies in this book:

• We ought to sympathize with Emily but she’s so shallow and d..."

Very wise, Abigail, as always. Yes - Team Floore! I liked Ned, too - I was going to ask, does anyone get the distinct feeling he was going to make a play for Emily? And hoped he’d hold out for better? I couldn’t help thinking he might be doing so to please Mrs. Floore, not the best basis for a marriage, but certainly not unheard of at the time...

Susan in NC wrote: "Very wise, Abigail, as always. Yes - Team Floore!"

I've added my favourite Floore quote to the database.

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9672...

Abigail wrote: "Reading all these comments, I’m struck by the many different ways Heyer uses to play with and challenge our sympathies in this book:

• We ought to sympathize with Emily but she’s so shallow and d..."

That's a great analysis Abigail.

Thanks, Critterbee! And Susan, I do think we’re supposed to assume that Ned will propose to Emily when she’s a little older, but I can’t help hoping he’ll find a down-to-earth girl with more wit than hair.

Emily is shallow and ignorant and wishy-washy, and that only makes Ivo's proposal more unpleasant. She is clearly someone not up to the task of being Ivo's wife, and that would have been obvious even before he realised that Serena wasn't totally lost to him.

If he so needs a wife (immediately) then perhaps Melissa Brandon, from The Corinthian, is still available. She would bring dignity to the role, and her coldness would be less vulnerable ...

Abigail wrote: "Reading all these comments, I’m struck by the many different ways Heyer uses to play with and challenge our sympathies in this book:

• We ought to sympathize with Emily but she’s so shallow and d..."

excellent post, Abigail

One can argue that Emily is the way she is because of the way she was brought up. Serena is older and women had more freedom and she didn't have a mother to basically ruin her the way Emily's mother does.

As for Serena's disappointment, I think, and if I were her, I'd hope that my father would produce a son so Serena could manage the estate for her brother until he comes of age and marries. By then she'll be elderly (for the time) and retire, if she's still alive, or married. If the estate wasn't entailed, she could have hoped for a husband who wants her estate and fortune but is too lazy to manage it himself and content to let her do all the work. That's not the kind of husband she deserves though. Amanda Vickery in Behind Closed Doors: At Home in Georgian England, states Georgian men really did want intelligent wives to run their homes, host their social events and manage the education of the children. By the late Regency period and of course Victorian period, I think the ideal changed.

Re: Ivo proposing to Emily - he says it himself - he knew he needed to marry and produce an heir, and didn't care who he married if it wasn't Serena. Remember too, that Emily was very pretty and appeared attractive in a young, innocent, fun way -at the lunch that she gate-crashed with her mother.
And she was dazzled by Ivo's wealth too.

However, I agree that Serena and Ivo both have little empathy or understanding of people who *Cannot* stand up for themselves. Fanny says so as well - that Serena simply has no idea how women brought up to NOT think for themselves function.

I like that Serena is the moderating force on Ivo - with his privileged position, there were few who could talk directly to him - similar to Sylvester, in a way.

Someone said Ivo bullies Gerard - but does he? He only raises his voice to him when Gerard insults him by referring to his terms of guardianship. Gerard's own brother says Ivo is fine with him - it's just a case of clashing personalities.

Rosina wrote: "I could forgive the quarrelling - after all, I love Charles and Sophie, and they quarrel a lot. But I cannot forgive Ivo for involving the poor innocent, and beneath-his-class Emily, with no though..."

Oh, I think Ivo's original offer to Emily was perfectly honest - and acceptable to her. It would have been just another marriage of convenience. And I give him credit for getting her to break it off when he realized he'd acted too impulsively in making that arrangement for her.

Abigail wrote: "Thanks, Critterbee! And Susan, I do think we’re supposed to assume that Ned will propose to Emily when she’s a little older, but I can’t help hoping he’ll find a down-to-earth girl with more wit th..."

Amen, sister!

QNPoohBear wrote: "One can argue that Emily is the way she is because of the way she was brought up. Serena is older and women had more freedom and she didn't have a mother to basically ruin her the way Emily's mothe..."

Interesting- and thanks for the book recommendation!

I finished it. It was a favorite of mine but when I read it this time I couldn't remember why. I really didn't like Ivo. He was too self centered and overbearing. Serena wasn't much better. 'Flying up into the boughs' when things went against her. Glad I read it again though.