Fantasy Buddy Reads discussion

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Spot 😎

When is the date for this BR?

Jul 25.

I am also in for this one!

So excited!

I started a few days early because I have Malazan #9 coming up this week and I really want to get to get this one out of the way so I can move on to that one. I'm up to chapter 18 (view spoiler)[and, thankfully, there hasn't been as much of Kennit as in the two previous books. The focus has been more on Bingtown and some on the Paragon crew.

Kennit now has serpents working for him. Ugh. I don't care for Bolt either; she's manipulating the serpents, it seems, so I guess she and Kennit make a fine pair. They can both sink to the bottom of the ocean as far as I'm concerned. Glad at least Maulkin and She Who Remembers aren't fully trusting of her.

The theory that Kennit is/was a Ludlock and that Paragon is his family's liveship were spot on. And poor Paragon was supposed to die so that Kennit could keep his past trauma buried. Kennit's not worth dying for and Paragon is too good for him.

Reyn is just annoying. He's all about Malta, Malta, Malta.



I'm glad that Malta has finally grown up and is no longer a complete brat but I just don't care about this romance at all. I generally love the whole arranged-marriage-partners-find-true-love trope and was looking forward to that unfolding here but it never happened. Instead it's only felt like Reyn fell into insta-lust and he's been calling it love. And I don't buy one word of it. I'm sure the author means it to be real love but all I see is a man who acts like a boy and who is panting for a girl he really doesn't even know on any deep level. Seldon has been acting more maturely than Reyn at this point.

I really don't see how Althea can ever take her liveship back. For one thing, the fact that the ships are really the sentient memories of long dead dragons raises all sorts of issues of autonomy and consent. But even with that aside, Vivacia is no more...and even if she were, she's spent far more time with Wintrow not to mention her giving her loyalty over to Kennit.

The Rain Wilde Traders seem to me to be a short-sighted bunch. They're only source of income has been through trading on the stuff they dig up from the old Elderling city. Did they never think that the source would eventually run dry? They never planned how they would make a living when that time came? The Khupras family was down to their last wizard wood log so this isn't a case where the end of the treasure was centuries in the future. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 21...(view spoiler)[Pretty much dislike Volt (Vivacia + Bolt) and Wintrow now too. Volt is ready to kill Paragon. Wintrow is ready to betray his own family because his loyalty is to Kennit. They can go to the bottom of the ocean IMO.

Little Seldon really is so much more mature than Reyn.

The satrap is such a clueless idiot I can't even really hate him. He's too stupid to live. (hide spoiler)]

I'm starting to feel story fatigue here and it doesn't help that the list of characters I dislike or am not interested in is far outpacing the ones I do like. I'm ready for this to be done.

Still chapter 21...(view spoiler)[F*@king Kennit! Now he's lying to poor Paragon about not caring for Volt, trying to manipulate him into killing himself and his whole crew. F*@king bastard! All my sympathy is for Paragon. I'm so spitting angry right now. (hide spoiler)]

I am only up to Ch 4... Just started and I think the old granny is the strongest character so far. All the dragons seem so self centered to me. From the creatures She Who Remembers , Paragon and Maulkin are my favorite...

Up to Ch 8... Man, I am kind of frustrated with everyone at this point... I appreciate all the details and the debt of characters they create, but I really think that these books could have been half as short as they are. I am a bit tired of knowing every emotion of every person in Bingtown or the Rein Wilds... For that matter, I don't need to know everything about all the random sailors or pirates. I think, the same thing I felt for Diana Gibaldon, or however her name is spelled... They can't control their writing and get lost in all the details they feel and want to relate. This is why I love Glen Cook, who can tackle epic themes like these, full of hundreds of characters, and still stick to the point, conveying all the rest with show of emotion through action and not needing to explain every emotion of the character, we just get it. I don't usually mind the in debt portrayls, but there has to be at least an editor who goes behind the author and keeps them in line.

I only say that because I really love this author and expect much more from her than the average ones out there. I love the world, the idea of the story, but yes, there is such a thing as story fatigue...

So, I am up to Ch 21... Wow! I hate Bolt! I wasn't that big of a fan of Vivacia, but Bolt needs to get eaten by the serpents! And Kennit - Ggghhhhrrrrrr!!!! He needs to get dead yesterday! How dare he (view spoiler)[ have hurt my Paragon and now is planning to do it again, just in case his fucking past comes out? WTF??? I hate that manipulative murderous bastard! I love Paragon and it is a miracle that he is as sane as he is after being put through all this and by the people who were supposed to love him! I get it, it was instigated by the abusive bastard pirate who abducted them when he was a kid, but now he has choices and he keeps making the most terrible ones... I hate him! (hide spoiler)]
At least Malta is growing up and her brother is adorable! Reyn drove me insane when he would just obsess over Malta and not listen to reason... And only the kid understands how to be around the dragon. Everyone else is being either crazy hostile or just hoping to get something from the connection with Tentaglia... Obviously the times when humanity lived to admire and semi-worship the gorgeous creatures is gone... Kind of sad...

Choko wrote: "Up to Ch 8... Man, I am kind of frustrated with everyone at this point... I appreciate all the details and the debt of characters they create, but I really think that these books could have been ha..."

Yes! Perfectly stated, Choko. To paraphrase Paragon in this book, the author has used a lot of words to tell me (next to) nothing new. It's as if the author fears she'll sacrifice quality if she's more concise, which doesn't have to be the case at all.

Choko wrote: "So, I am up to Ch 21... Wow! I hate Bolt! I wasn't that big of a fan of Vivacia, but Bolt needs to get eaten by the serpents! And Kennit - Ggghhhhrrrrrr!!!! He needs to get dead yesterday! How dare..."

Agree on all points, Choko. (view spoiler)[What Igrot did was terrible and child Kennit did not ask for it and he couldn't stop it. Bad stuff happens, sometimes for no damn reason at all and it's not fair, but those things don't have to define us. One would think that that experience would make someone more sympathetic to the hurts of others and to want to help alleviate suffering. Kennit instead cut off his own humanity, cares nothing for anyone else except in how he can use them. Even Etta, stupid Etta, who has been with him now for at least a year and who you'd think he'd have developed some genuine affection for by this time but, no, she's still just "the whore" in his mind. A convenient vagina, that's all. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 28...And here I was thinking that Kennit couldn't possibly get more loathsome to me (view spoiler)[after that disturbing scene where he's manipulating poor Paragon into basically committing suicide just to make his own life easier. Now he's a f*@king rapist. What's he's done to Althea...and then looking at her with fake concern...presenting her as a hysterical, overwrought female...I want him to die the most horrible death ever put to page. And I hate Wintrow almost as much for going along, thinking his poor Aunt Althea must be crazy, for still jumping when Kennit calls. This is who he gave his loyalty to. He can die too for all I care. At least stupid Etta believes the truth of it, though it seems she'd still be willing to return to Kennit once he tires of Althea. Ugh. If Kennit gets away with hiding the rape I will toss this whole trilogy into the trashcan and not even feel guilty about it. (hide spoiler)]

I haven't hated a character this much in awhile. I. Am. Seething.

All those emotions which we both share, believe me, do indicate some good crafting of a villain on page! But I am boiling with hatered too! I just finished Ch 21 and am half way through Ch. 22... Please tell me (view spoiler)[ that Paragon listened to the serpents and lived! Don't let him die, please! Also, the crew, at least the captain and the ship's boy, please tell me that they live!!!! Please! My heart will break if they die:'(:'(:'( (hide spoiler)]

Choko wrote: "All those emotions which we both share, believe me, do indicate some good crafting of a villain on page! But I am boiling with hatered too! I just finished Ch 21 and am half way through Ch. 22... P..."

Is that rhetorical or do you really want me to tell you? That was the only time I've really wanted to slap Paragon and tell him to snap out of it.

I actually really want you to tell me... Put it in spoiler tags, but I need to know... My nerves can't take it...

Choko wrote: "I actually really want you to tell me... Put it in spoiler tags, but I need to know... My nerves can't take it..."

(view spoiler)[He listens. He, Brashen, and crew live. :-) (hide spoiler)]

I miss buddy reading with the two of you. It's always entertaining for different reasons. Can't wait until you both start DoD.

Oh and yes, this book had me seething.

Scott wrote: "Oh and yes, this book had me seething."

LOL, I do try to sit on my emotions most of the time. I just suck at it.

Veronica wrote: "
LOL, I do try to sit on my emotions most of the time. I just suck at it."

I'll give that all the consideration it's due. :)

Hahahaha! Scott, we miss you too, but we know we will read Malazan together for ever, so I am very happy with the knowledge:-)

Thank you, V! Now I can continue reading... I was freaking out, because of the anger and helplessness and just everything... I think she has created the perfect villain in this series. You know you hate him, but she gives you just enough to spark some hope that maybe there is a chance for something good in him, and every time the letdown is worse than the one before... He is layered and complex, with bunch of background that makes us feel sorry for him and even have some understanding, but he is still a selfish prick who is paranoid and rather I
eliminate all perceived threats than see if they are real or imagined... I am with you! He suffered with the leg, but he needs to die a horrible death still!

Also, is it only me, or is it not the best thing to have the whole race of Dragons resurrected? They completely discount human laws and put themselves above all else... Her explanation about whoever kills the prey first is the rightfully owner, this doesn't bode well for farmers and regular folks, who already have to pay taxes to greedy rulers... Maybe there is a way to keep their clutches as small as possible, just not extinct...

Choko wrote: "Hahahaha! Scott, we miss you too, but we know we will read Malazan together for ever, so I am very happy with the knowledge:-)

Thank you, V! Now I can continue reading... I was freaking out, becau..."

You're more lenient than me. I've never thought there was a hope of a redemption arc for him. His inner thoughts always indicated to me that he has nothing but contempt and disdain for everyone around him. (view spoiler)[His supposed caring about Wintrow is just as the charm said, he's a representation of Kennit as a boy..so it's still Kennit caring about Kennit...which makes his whole arousal at the thought that Althea looks so much like Wintrow ("Wintrow in female form") all the more bizarre and telling. (hide spoiler)] But, no, I never thought he'd ever grow into a better man. He's never wanted to.

Maaaaan, I got to the part with Althea... I am just so angry now! Ghhhhrrrrr!

Just starting, up to chapter 2 only.

I really admire Ronica's gut and strength of character. While Serilla is suddenly not so likable anymore. I get that she is alone and is desperate not to have power wrested away from her, but compared to Ronica she just seemed shallow and callous.

Will be late, Malazan is taking a bit longer than I expected. I'll probably start sometime this weekend.

I will probably be late as well - I am finishing one book and then I will start!

Chapter 6 - (view spoiler)[I wanted to like Serilla in the Mad Ship, but I seriously dislike her so far in this book. Has she gone mad? I thought she wanted to be free and live in Bingtown, not be the new bloody Satrap!
Why does she insist on seeing Ronica as her enemy?

Amber wears Fitz's earring. And told the slaves she's a prophet! So we know for sure she's the Fool, but I wonder what significance this will have to the story back in the Six Duchies. Why is the Fool here?? (hide spoiler)]

Anny wrote: "Just starting, up to chapter 2 only.

I really admire Ronica's gut and strength of character. While Serilla is suddenly not so likable anymore. I get that she is alone and is desperate not to have ..."

Totally agree, Anny!

Yeah, my feelings for Serilla changed several times... There is the abuse, the culture she came from and other things, but I think her main motivation is being in a position to be safe, never again for someone else to be able to just give her away or sell her... I hate the way she goes about it, but I understand...

Choko wrote: "Yeah, my feelings for Serilla changed several times... There is the abuse, the culture she came from and other things, but I think her main motivation is being in a position to be safe, never again..."

Yes I see what you mean, Choko. I don't like the way she's going about it, but I understand the motivation.

Siobhan wrote: "Chapter 6"

Serilla (view spoiler)[is basically traumatized and is not coping well at the moment. Which is understandable, since her entire sense of safety now stemmed from holding power, so she desperately cling to it no matter what. (hide spoiler)]

Amber (view spoiler)[is definitely the fool. I guess the whole elderling realm stories is basically the fool's story of fixing/saving destiny/dragons. (hide spoiler)]

End of Ch 6

Serilla
(view spoiler)[While she obviously was traumatized by the ship captain on the way to Bingtown, she's in my opinion hopelessly ambitious and naive. She set herself the ultimate goal of being the ruler of Bingtown on behalf of the Satrap, because she knows how weak the Satrap is. But, she tries to undermine the Satrap by concocting that scheme to kidnap the Satrap. By undermining the Satrap, she's undermining her own power. If she would only lower her ambition a little bit, to perhaps just as a representative not a ruler of Bingtown, then she could have better relationships with other stakeholders in town.

Furthermore, she's just so naive in assuming that she could come in and order people to do whatever she wants. If she claims to be an expert in Bingtown, she would understand that these Traders, especially the Old Traders, value their independence very strongly. Why would she ever think her heavy-handed tactic and arrogant demeanor would successfully sway these people to her point of view. Perhaps, we could also blame her circumstances. She does not have a strong and wise ruler as her role model. In her adult life, she only knows a weak ruler like the Satrap who is easily and extensively manipulated by the scheming Chalcedeans. Perhaps, she thinks that's the only way to gain influence and power in Bingtown. Like I said, she's just hopelessly naive. (hide spoiler)]

Barry wrote: "End of Ch 6

Serilla (view spoiler)[concocted the scheme to kidnap the Satrap because she's racing against time against another scheme to murder the Satrap in Bingtown. If she didn't get the Satrap kidnapped, the other party may succeed in assassinating him and Serilla will lose all power. I don't think she's confident in keeping Satrap safe and secure in Bingtown, that's why I think the plan to move the Satrap to Rain Wild is actually a good idea. It's definitely easier to contain and control the Satrap there.

As to why she simply orders people around. Well, in Jamailia that's how things always were. The one in command issue orders and everyone else obey, even if the one issuing command is a sniveling drugged up boy. Not to mention, even the Bingtown Traders has always obeyed the Satrapy before, so she might simply expect things to stay the same. Naive, yes. But, she's never been in this kind of situation too. Her refusal to obey the Satrap was equally naive and look what it brought her. (hide spoiler)]

I am reading all the comments about Serilla - I just finished Chapter 6.

(view spoiler)[ To me, Serilla started as a great character, a character that wanted to be an independent woman.
And she paid the price by being raped.
Now, she is becoming petty and vindictive with people who did not cause any harm to her and, in fact, were her way out of a life of subordination. She is stupidly ignoring those who could be helping her.
I am not sure this is trauma; I am afraid this was her plan all along. She might have been different if Bingtown was not destroyed during the riots; but as it is today, she is just really an annoying character. (hide spoiler)]

Serilla up to Ch 6
(view spoiler)[
I understand that things weren't going smoothly for her, even before she got on to that ship and was raped (but then, we can say nothing every goes smoothly for any character in a Robin Hobb novels). As a result, she did have to make a quick decision to try to secure the Satrap to ensure her own power. I don't mind that as much as her strategy of actually securing that power for herself.

I agree with Sol that it is her desire to rule Bingtown that is the problem. That's why I said she's naive to think that she could have this power independent of the Satrap while taking hostage of the Satrap under the guise of saving his life. She's naive to think that without proper army or sufficient funds she could achieve her desire to rule the Bingtown.

Further, she's also naive to think that she could just walk in and announce that she's now ruling on behalf of the Satrap when the whole issue is the souring relationship between the Satrap and the Old Traders. I think that's a blunder from somebody who claims that she's the per-eminent scholar of Bingtown.

I guess I'm disappointed with her development. I thought at first that she could be a figure that can unite the Traders in Bingtown and eventually she might see that independence or at least re-adjustment to the treaty with the Satrapy is in order to keep Bingtown thriving.

But, instead, she's become a major factor of the disunity by claiming Davad and the Vestritts are traitors (or at least supporting some factions of the Old Traders who want to brand Davad and the Vestritts as traitors).

To be fair, the political situation in Bingtown is extremely complex and there's no easy way to appease everybody. And obviously she's technically just an advisor, so she holds no real political power, especially under this Satrap. So, she's just a small player compared to the complex games that the Jamaillian and Chalcedean elites are playing. So, in a way, she's trapped in the middle with no good way out. But, I was expecting her to be wiser and more thoughtful in whom she's allying with. (hide spoiler)]

Barry wrote: "Serilla up to Ch 6"

I agree with your comment entirely! Certainly you phrased so much better than I could and highlighted exactly my problem with her behavior!

I am in the middle of chapter 10 and I have to say that the chapters before hurt me fairly bad.

Chapter 7 (view spoiler)[ how painful was to see Vivacia die? and Wintrow's reaction? I really felt for Vivacia, as annoying as she was in book #2, she did not deserve to simply disappear like this.
Although I am digging the dragonized (a neologism) form! I am curious to see if she can "tame" Kennit this way! (hide spoiler)]

I am very pleased with Ronica's development and, overall, story. I think it was very smart to add the political process to it.
All in all, this book seems a bit faster - in terms of plot development - than book 2. There are several points of view with different story-lines. I am really looking forward to see the conclusion of this trilogy.

I love the full on debate we're having about Serilla! XD
I also agree with you Barry and Solseit.

Solseit wrote: "I am in the middle of chapter 10 and I have to say that the chapters before hurt me fairly bad.

Chapter 7 .."

RE chapter 7, (view spoiler)[I agree that was very painful. Do you think she's really dead? I keep hoping she will come back somehow. I keep thinking about poor Althea looking for her, not knowing she's gone! :( (hide spoiler)]

Siobhan wrote: "Solseit wrote: "I am in the middle of chapter 10 and I have to say that the chapters before hurt me fairly bad.

Chapter 7 .."

RE chapter 7, [spoilers removed]"
Me too - that is going to be another heart-breaking moment. Yet, and I just had an illumination right now (view spoiler)[ what if with Althea, Vivacia is going to be able to return AND become a dragon? That would be SO COOL and it would pay off for so much pain! (hide spoiler)]

End of Ch 15

Paragon
(view spoiler)[
Yes, Paragon is a Ludlum. Our theory proven correct. But, what the heck did Igrot do to Kennit? How the heck did he capture Paragon in the first place. (hide spoiler)]

Tintaglia
(view spoiler)[My theory on the Elderlings’ demise ... I think the Rain Wild River somehow changes people into dragon? The Rain Wild Traders are slowly growing scales on their bodies. (hide spoiler)]

Ronica
(view spoiler)[
I hope Keffria doesn’t mess up the alliance that Ronica is trying to develop through her ignorance and intolerance of the other people (slaves, new traders).

I love the politicking that’s going on in Abington. The best parts of this book so far. (hide spoiler)]

Malta
(view spoiler)[I hope she’s gonna be okay. These Chaldcedeans are truly brutal and extremely misogynistic. How could they think so little of women! I feel bad that I disliked her so much in the first book and now it’s possible that she could get raped on the Chalcedean ship. Ugh! I really really hope that won’t happen. (hide spoiler)]

Barry wrote: "End of Ch 15"

Paragon (view spoiler)[What Igrot did? Well, just killing Kennit's father, cut his mother's tongue, and as to what a pirate with penchant to cruelty did to a poor helpless boy, one can very well imagine. Paragon's capture will be explained later on. (hide spoiler)]

Malta (view spoiler)[actually among all the Vestrits women, I came to like Malta the most. She even outshines Althea in terms of character development and maturity. Althea was a letdown for me, I was expecting her to be the kind of character that Jek was. Keffria thankfully is not given too many pages, she gets better, but still a bore I think. Ronica is so much better than Keffria, but again her role is pretty limited now. (hide spoiler)]

Barry wrote: "End of Ch 15

Paragon
I needed to re-read that part two times to fully understand it (view spoiler)[ Kennit IS a Ludlum. Kennit is the natural heir of the Ludlum family AND he is connected to Paragon. I loved this development, BTW. (hide spoiler)]

Tintaglia
[spoilers r..."
Your theory is quite awesome. I wonder if that is the case (view spoiler)[ it would explain why Rein was able to hear Tantaglia; and I wonder why the others could not hear her.
I am also super excited to see how this continues - in fact, it would be cool is Bingtown would become its own state with the aid of dragons, the dragon state! (hide spoiler)]

on the Vestris women - I did not expect to like Malta so much. I borderline hated the character and was annoyed to read about her in the first two books. Now, I cannot wait to read about her!

RE Malta, I feel like only Robin Hobb could make me go from despising a character to loving them in the space of half a book. Haha.
I second your thoughts on her current predicament, Barry.

Very true!!!!

Siobhan wrote: "Chapter 6"

Re: Serilla: (view spoiler)[God, I bloody hate her so much in this book and she had so much potential in Mad Ship! Now she's so power-hungry and desperate for everything to concern her and involve her and ugh – I'm just not feeling it at all. Like she feels like she has a right to Bingtown somehow??? No, no, nonono, get lost, girl! (hide spoiler)]

I'm up to chapter 24 – some thoughts so far:

Malta: (view spoiler)[Agree with you Siobhan, only Hobb could have done this. I feel like I'm one of Hobb's characters, undergoing a rabid development under her hand – I love Malta! Even though she's still clinging a bit to the idea of her amazing father, she's grown so much and I love her attitude towards the problems she faces; she's truly shown herself to be a Vestrit woman. I can say the same for Keffria – I cared not one bit about her in the first book, but she's one of my favorite characters now, almost as great as Ronica (who I liked from the beginning). (hide spoiler)]

Amber: (view spoiler)[I almost cried when Amber begged for her life in the holds of the sinking Paragon. Now that we know with 99% certainty that she is the Fool in disguise, all those old Farseer feelings are coming back. The Fool was my favorite character in the Farseer Trilogy, and I can definitely feel that now. I kinda didn't really notice Amber in the first book but I started paying attention to her in the second book and now I adore her. (hide spoiler)]

Tintaglia: (view spoiler)[I find her both annoying and compelling. Her arrogance is so off-putting, but she has her moments. I hope her and Reyn develop some kind of relationship beyond distrust and resenment (which might already be under way after he killed that animal for her?). (hide spoiler)]

Kennit, Paragon + Liveship characters in general: (view spoiler)[I find this entire part of the story really sad. I love Kennit as a character, he's so despicable and yet still compelling, and he only gets more so to me the more we learn of his past. I can easily imagine how the sweet and happy boy Kennit Paragon describes could turn into what we see today with what we've heard so far of Igrot's treatment of both boy and ship. I wish it wasn't so heart-breaking, but then again, it wouldn't be a Robin Hobb book without some heartbreak, would it?

Also regarding Kennit: I find him a much better villain than Regal in the Farseer books, which is also one factor in why I'm enjoy this trilogy so much more than Farseer. While the characters in Farseer were also amazing, I find the Liveship cast so much more enjoyable. They really do feel like real people to me, with as many facets as a real person would have; they do good things but they also do problematic things, and have loads of issues that develop the story in a believable way (what I found lacking in Farseer, where I found the story to kinda be.. held back from character's issues, if that makes sense?). (hide spoiler)]

Kathrine wrote: "Siobhan wrote: "Chapter 6"
Kenni..."

Tintaglia (view spoiler)[Well dragon is supposedly the epitome of pride and arrogance, so no wonder there :) I would say Six Duchies dragons are not true dragons because they are made of humans memories and feelings. (hide spoiler)]

Kennit (view spoiler)[ I agree that he made so much better villain than Regal. And since in book 1 and 2 he didn't actually did anything bad (did more good than the rest of the casts combined actually), I kept hoping that he would get his redemption. (hide spoiler)]

Farseer (view spoiler)[The thing I dislike the most in the Farseer trilogy is the amount of pages spent on Fitz wallowing on his broken heart. When there were so many problems and tragedies to focus on, the forging, the poisoning of the king, the treachery of the coutery, we instead have to listen to a teenager's whining about his lost love. (hide spoiler)]