The Catcher in the Rye discussion

That hair stroking incident at night is so sudden and strange, especially after Antolini has just won Holden's trust before giving some sound advice. But do you think his subsequent action is just an innocent paternal sort of gesture, or did he have some darker motive in mind?

I tend to think that Holden's reaction alone makes the incident not okay, no matter what Antolini's intentions may have been. For a teacher to stroke a student's hair while he's asleep, a time when we're most vulnerable, personal boundaries are being violated. Mr Antolini reacted with some embarrassment and seemed to make an effort to downplay the incident, suggesting that being caught took him off guard. His response, 'I'm just admiring you,' is a bit offish too.

Even when Holden tries to rationalize the incident and wonders if he'd over-reacted, he still feels really uncomfortable about it. That alone makes it creepy to me, and puts it in the category of something that should never have happened.

What do others think? Is Antolini a good teacher or a creep?

as a teacher, Antolini stepped over the line, but he was also a friend of the family. Holden came to him seeking support late at night. Antolini give him shelter and advice, great advice, as a friend of the family not as a teacher.

Still, the stroking of his hair made Holden uncomfortable. He was no longer the little kid Antolini had taught and known. Holdens discomfort signifies his maturation, his coming of age.

I didn't take it as a come-on but Holden did, and he acted accordingly.

If Antolini had invited him over, that would be different, but Holden came to him in a time of need, and Antolini took him in. Caressing his head was an act of compassion that sprang from knowing him as a young boy. But Holden had changed. His rejection of the gesture signifies his transition into manhood.

Monty J wrote: "as a teacher, Antimony stepped over the line, but he was also a friend of the family. Holden came to him seeking support late at night. Antolini give him shelter and advice, great advice, as a frie..."

Yeah, that does sort of ring true. Perhaps it's no stretch to imagine that Antolini, with innocuous intentions, behaved as if Holden was still the kid he'd known. Yet his mistake (or one of them) was forgetting that he was now dealing with a young man, which made the issue more complex. Of course it was a bit different in the fifties. In the 21st century, it's a dodgy move even if the student was still a kid.

Having read the the relevant pages carefully many times and discussed it with my own students, I believe either interpretation is plausible. If that is true, it makes the passage all the more effective, because Holden isn't sure and the reader isn't sure, so it brings the reader closer to Holden by sharing his perspective of just not knowing.

Paula wrote: "Monty J wrote: "as a teacher, Antimony stepped over the line, but he was also a friend of the family. Holden came to him seeking support late at night. Antolini give him shelter and advice, great a..."

oooh good answer

Bill wrote: "Having read the the relevant pages carefully many times and discussed it with my own students, I believe either interpretation is plausible. If that is true, it makes the passage all the more effec..."

Yeah, it's easy to imagine that's just how Salinger intended it, which makes him a really good writer. I tend to think that he meant no harm, yet the fact that he waited until Holden was asleep proves that he himself knew it wasn't a great move to make.

Paula wrote: "...s Antolini a good teacher or a creep?"

I'd say the guy is a pretty brilliant and courageous teacher, the diametric opposite of Mr. Spencer. It was he who compassionately covered then picked up James Castle's body after he committed suicide at Elkton Hills. Later, he took in Holden when he called late at night, distraught and ill, then he gave Holden terrific advice about getting a good education and prepared a bed for him on his couch. Remember, he was not just a teacher but a friend of the family.

Antolini is established on the first page of Chapter 23 as a courageously compassionate individual in the gentle manner in which he protects Holden and his dorm-mates from trauma by shielding the young students from viewing such a ghastly sight. He then further elevates himself by tendrely lifting the boy's mangled frame and carrying it away.

(23,174) He was the one that finally picked up that boy that jumped out the window I told you about, James Castle. Old Mr. Antolini felt his pulse and all, and then he took off his coat and put it over James Castle and carried him all the way over to the infirmary. He didn't even give a damn if his coat got all bloody.

After such a dramatic display of compassion, Antolini's tenderness toward Holden is completely in character. That Holden took it as a come-on is more a reflection him than Antolini. Holden was just as Antolini said, "... a very strange boy."

Here's some of Antolini's advice:

Antolini: (24, 189) "I'm not trying to tell you that only educated and scholarly men are able to contribute something valuable to the world. It's not so. But I do say that educated and scholarly men, if they're brilliant and creative to begin with--which, unfortunately, is rarely the case--tend to leave infinitely more valuable records behind them than men do who are merely brilliant and creative."

That Salinger, a WWII combat veteran, was capable of creating such complex and memorable characters as Antolini, Stradlater, Mr. Spencer and the like speaks highly of him. Such writing is rarely equaled.

Here's a link to my article, "Misjudging Mr. Antolini" on Wattpad.com: https://www.wattpad.com/58013882-midj...

Monty J wrote: "Paula wrote: "...s Antolini a good teacher or a creep?"

I'd say the guy is a pretty brilliant and courageous teacher, the diametric opposite of Mr. Spencer. ..."

Another thing to consider is how Antolini's admiration for Holden fits into the novel's prevailing theme of maturation and the transition into adulthood.

Antolini fills dual roles of both family friend and teacher. In both cases, he has an implied responsibility to cultivate the boy so he will develop into a successful and productive adult. Salinger characterizes Antolini as not only a brilliant teacher but also hints that he may be a closet homosexual, making him a fascinatingly complex character. The homosexual implications charge their interaction with sexual tension.

The big question here is whether a gay man can compliment an adolescent male without being accused of pedophilia.

Aide from Antolini's gayness, as a family friend, he was acting out a responsible nurturing role by giving Holden advice, calling him "handsome" and stroking his head. All of these gestures fulfill the "family friend" duty to shore up Holden's self-confidence by reinforcing his positive qualities of intelligence, education and physical attractiveness.

If Antolini were an aunt and did those things, few people raise an eyebrow. But since Holden thinks he's gay, he reacts homophobically, taking the reader along with him. Homophobia was prevalent in the 1950s when this novel was published, so it's understandable that Salinger's writing would reflect the mores of his milieu.

A family friend should be able to do what Antolini did without being accused of making a sexual pass. But Holden's overreaction characterizes him as both heterosexual and homophobic. Furthermore, his overreaction represents a maturation milestone--that he not only can discern subtleties of gay behavior, but is also assertive enough to defend his masculinity. This is evidence of Holden's maturity.

At 17, Holden was not legally an adult, but his behavior in this instance establishes that he's mature enough to defend his masculinity.

It seems Mr. Antolini has crossed his boundary line. Holden sees him as a caring teacher and whether or not, Mr. Antolini is attracted to Holden, the boundary line should not be crossed. I mean, Holden is just 17. He is still a teenager. In psychology, this is the stage wherein a person finds his identity, "Who am I?" If this stage is dissatisfied, it might lead to identity crisis. Somehow, Holden faces his crisis too. He smokes. He studies but his grades suffer a lot. He engages in unnecessary fights. It is fair to say when Holden approaches Mr. Antolini, Holden is expecting a support from a fatherly figure, who can give him inspiration, motivation and words to live by. Yet, a stroking incident happened. Holden feels shocked by this inevitable. Whether Mr. Antolini appears to be closeted gay or not, he seems to give Holden a reason to feel awkward and uncomfortable. His overreaction to the situation is the most common response we can get from a teenager like him.

I was proud of Holden for quickly deciding that what Mr. Antolini was doing (patting his head in the dark while he was sleeping after ingesting a lot of alcohol) was NOT OK and taking it upon himself to exit the situation instead of allow anything more to transpire. I think this was a fantastic example of exactly what a young person should do in a situation in which they are uncomfortable.
I realize this was written 70+ years ago, but Mr. Antolini as described by Holden had been demonstrating grooming behavior including:
Friendly with child outside of school environment
Making in-roads through family
Offering a place for Holden to sleep
Offering Holden alcohol/cigarettes
Insinuating Holden is safe under his watch
Complimenting his physical appearance (handsome, long-legs)
Accusing Holden of over-reacting and being strange

I agree with the posts above that Holden is the ultimate judge and he has been a poor one throughout the book -but his actions here were exactly correct.

Bionicjim wrote: "I was proud of Holden for quickly deciding that what Mr. Antolini was doing (patting his head in the dark while he was sleeping after ingesting a lot of alcohol) was NOT OK and taking it upon himse..."

I 100% agree with everything you wrote.

Paula wrote: "Is Antolini a good teacher or a creep..."

The problem is that he was BOTH, a good teacher and a creep. Thats what betrayal trauma is all about. When Holden freaks out, Antolini SHAMES him by telling him that he is strange, instead of showing compassion in a moment when Holden is feeling confused and scared. Like someone else wrote, Antolini was grooming Holden. That doesnt take away the fact that he was good to Holden many other times. Thats what makes this kind of abuse so damaging.

This is an oldish thread now, but I wanted to share an article I found. I can’t post a link, but it’s called “The Secret Rape of Holden Caulfield”, by stereorealist, and is easily found with a google search.

I found it to be very eye opening, and provides an all encompassing perspective on the pedophilia and homosexual themes in the book. It really got me thinking and engaging with the text in a productive way.

I think whether you think whether or not you believe Mr.Antolini actually made advances towards Holden, or if Holden was sexually abused at some other time, most people will likely agree that Holden has experienced some form of trauma, which affects his mental well-being and the way he acts. This is sometimes pushed to the side by the most evident narratives and themes of maturation, childhood, and innocence. I think this is a issue, as to me, emotional trauma does a lot explain Holdens behavior. Yes it is a story about growing up and trying to save your innocence/the innocence of others, but I think the theme of mental instability (as a result of abuse and or traumatic events) is just as important and is intertwined with those other themes.

I look forward to reading the book again someday with this in mind.

bingoboingo wrote: "This is an oldish thread now, but I wanted to share an article I found. I can’t post a link, but it’s called “The Secret Rape of Holden Caulfield”, by stereorealist, and is easily found with a goog..."

Yes, this thread is old, but I wanted to let you know your post did not go unnoticed! The article brought up some interesting points. The way Holden clings to innocence as an idea/innocent ones and rejects everything otherwise just further makes me think there is unresolved trauma he is harboring. I appreciate your input and thank you for directing me to that article!

bingoboingo wrote: "This is an oldish thread now, but I wanted to share an article I found. I can’t post a link, but it’s called “The Secret Rape of Holden Caulfield”, by stereorealist, and is easily found with a goog..."

I agree with Brittany, thank you for posting about this article; it made me want to re-read catcher in the rye again. The article has some interesting points but I agree with a comment to the article, from someone called Jim, who explains that you don't need to be raped in order to have that much trauma. For me, the biggest trauma is still the death of his brother, but this did give me a new perspective, that a bunch of creepy adults made it even more difficult for him to trust other people and feel safe. I would guess that he wasn't raped but touched at different times (which is scary enough) and probably heard stories that scared him even more.

Bionicjim wrote: "I was proud of Holden for quickly deciding that what Mr. Antolini was doing (patting his head in the dark while he was sleeping after ingesting a lot of alcohol) was NOT OK and taking it upon himself to exit the situation

Completely. Ultimately, even if Antolini was just being affectionate and accidentally overstepped because he was drunk, Holden was completely justified, wanting to escape a situation of non-consensual contact. If you aren't feeling safe then get away.

I do think there is plenty of reason to think that he was making unwanted advances. I think it's a little sad that this is the sort of depiction of gay people in fiction that has reinforced Conservative ideas over the years, that conflate homosexuality with pedophilia.

Paula wrote: "That hair stroking incident at night is so sudden and strange, especially after Antolini has just won Holden's trust before giving some sound advice. But do you think his subsequent action is just ..."

As I was reading the book I definitely took it as him being a creep. Even though he was a family friend, the hair stroking really just brought it over the top for me. Holden staying at his house and Antolini giving him help was alright, but the way Antolini interacted with him verbally and physically gave me a predatory air. It may not have been the author's intention but I think Antolini's character ended up being a bit of a weirdo.

Looking at this book through the lens of Holden being a victim of some kind of childhood sexual assault makes it so different and much more tragic. Holden clearly had some sort of trauma response to the way this adult was treating him, whether or not Antolini had malicious intent. I tried to sum up all of my evidence for this theory in my review, but I'm definitely not alone in thinking that there are some underlying themes in this book.

I think... it doesn't really matter. There is evidence and support for either side.

As a teacher myself, I think his behavior was extremely inappropriate. You shouldn't invite a student home, let them sleep over, drink near them, and stroke their hair in their sleep. You can provide support in other ways - but hey, as a family friend, sometimes lines can be blurred, and intentions can come across in different ways. It's possible that he was overcome with how much Holden had grown since he'd last seen him, and stroking his hair was his way of providing care to someone he still sees as a child who needs guidance. Or, it's also very possible that he was being majorly inappropriate with Holden and had very malicious intentions.

Personally, I think the teacher was trying to make a pass.

But, at the end of the day, what really matters is how Holden feels --- after all, he is the one who experienced the event, and his later remark that this kind of thing has happened to him "like twenty times before" (not an exact quote) at the end of the chapter really puts a pit in my stomach. It doesn't matter whether Antolini meant to make an advance towards Holden, that's what Holden experienced, and it brought back previous memories of the same thing.

What Holden felt in this moment was betrayal, discomfort, and trauma. Someone he trusted to keep him safe made him feel the opposite of that in a time of extreme need.

Think about what we know about him: he was the only one who dared to pick up Castle after he had fallen out the window. Also, he warns Holden quite strongly that Holden is due for a fall.

Now think about what Holden aspires to: he wants to be at the edge of a cliff and save children who might fall over.

Mr. A empathizes with Holden largely because he is another Catcher. And he shares Holden’s social awkwardness. So his patting Holden on the head was inappropriate, but there are, at most, very mixed signals about whether it’s anything more.

Compare this, e.g., to Seymour kissing the foot of the girl at the end of the second scene in A Perfect Day For Bananafish.

Honestly, I’ve always found this scene to be one of the most unsettling parts of The Catcher in the Rye. When Holden wakes up to Mr. Antolini stroking his head, his reaction feels very real—he panics, grabs his stuff, and gets out of there fast. And I get it. If I were in his place, I’d probably do the same.

But here’s the tricky part: was Mr. Antolini actually making a move on Holden, or was it just an awkward, misunderstood moment? I’m not 100% sure. On one hand, it’s late at night, Holden is vulnerable, and Mr. Antolini’s behavior is unusual, to say the least. That’s enough to set off alarm bells. On the other hand, the guy had just been giving Holden serious life advice, and maybe he was just trying to comfort him in a way that came off totally wrong.

What makes it even more complicated is that Holden isn’t exactly the most reliable narrator. He sees the world in extremes—people are either "phonies" or innocent kids, and he often misreads situations. So it’s possible he overreacted. But at the same time, if something feels wrong to you, then it is wrong for you, and Holden’s gut reaction was fear. That alone says a lot.

In the end, Salinger never gives us a clear answer, which is probably the point. Whether Mr. Antolini meant harm or not, the moment shakes Holden and pushes him further into his loneliness. And that’s what really sticks with me—how, no matter what actually happened, it made Holden feel even more lost.The Catcher in the Rye

Joanna wrote: "Paula wrote: "Is Antolini a good teacher or a creep..."

The problem is that he was BOTH, a good teacher and a creep. Thats what betrayal trauma is all about. When Holden freaks out, Antolini SHAME..."

Im reading this book for school and as one who has been abused by a teacher at a youg age i agree with this article and how this also has to deal with him wanting to rotect all the young kids and their innocense and I appreciated this also becuase one i read "i woke up with a mans hand on my head" i knew he had been drugged in some way i had even searched up if Holden was drugged in the book but i never got a clear answer- but it would make sense if he was drugged that Mr Antilloni had gave him a drug so he could groom this child that he has known for a while