Women's Classic Literature Enthusiasts discussion

Discussion for week four. :)

Aaaaand here we come down to the final chapters.

What is your opinion of Robert's actions after he comes back?

Do you think it was cruel for him to agree to wait for her and then leave?

I think Robert basically respected the "norms" of society. (Ie - it's not morally right to have an affair with another man's wife). He had a momentary lapse after the buildup of all that emotion - but in the end, he did the morally "right" thing. The whole book he did - from leaving for Mexico without forewarning, to not leading Edna on by not writing her letters, to not immediately seeking Edna out when he returned. It wasn't because he didn't like or love her that he avoided her.

I was thinking why did Edna and Mad. Reisz bond when no one else really cared much for Mad. Reisz. What did it say about Edna's character?

So - the lovers and the woman in black. Was that just a foreshadowing of the two possible outcomes for Edna? The former being Edna and Robert live happily ever after and the woman in black representing death??

Todd wrote: "I think Robert basically respected the "norms" of society. (Ie - it's not morally right to have an affair with another man's wife). He had a momentary lapse after the buildup of all that emotion -..."

Edna was touched by the music that Mad. Reisz played, correct? That might explain it. Also I think out of all the characters Mad. Reisz would have been the least disapproving of Edna's actions.

Possibly. It's symbolism definitely. When I researched it it said the lovers were what Edna and Robert could have been if they had met earlier in life. The woman in black represented what would be expected of her if her husband died, i.e. meant to illustrate her oppression.

I did a little research too. Whereas I said Robert backed off because of moral reasons, the analysis said it was because he respected the "property rights" of a husband over his wife. Not quite the same level of chivalry I assumed.

Reisz was the foil to Adele - the perfect representative of what society of the time expected of a woman (perfect mother, perfect wife). So the people didn't like Reisz because she didn't fit the expected role of womanhood. Edna rejected those same norms and thus the bond with Reisz.

The lady in black - same as what you said - but it added that she represented the self effacing (my husband is dead, so I have no other role or independence in life, just waiting for my turn to die) role that society expected of a widow.

Todd wrote: "I did a little research too. Whereas I said Robert backed off because of moral reasons, the analysis said it was because he respected the "property rights" of a husband over his wife. Not quite t..."

That makes sense, especially considering this is book is exploring going against norms. It's not surprising that it was "property rights" (ugh.).

Ah, yes.

Yes, so even if her husband died she wouldn't have a chance with Robert. Another example of the constraints she was feeling.

Here's an interesting thought: isn't Chopin reinforcing societal norms by portraying a woman going against them, being disappointed, and committing suicide? Basically, she doesn't tow the line and she suffers the negative consequences. Doesn't that reinforce what Chopin is supposedly writing against?

Well, I would say no; because, as I see it, she isn't committing suicide as a result of her disappointment or as a negative action. I think Chopin meant to present this as an active choice she makes. She is choosing not to live by their rules and therefore she is choosing to not live. It's not a punishment, but her active rejection of the rules of society.

I found that I needed to make myself ready for this novel. The first time I read it I was desperately waiting for “something to happen” and the long drawn-out descriptions of a woman going for a swim, lying in a hammock, taking a nap, etc. just drove me crazy. Even then, though, some of the insightfulness of this got through to me. Once I made myself slow down and accept the novel on its own terms, the beauty of it began to become visible to me. There is also a certain amount of sly humor in it that isn’t immediately obvious. In the end I found it quite hauntingly powerful.

Thought it over. I think it may be giving Edna a little more credit than she may deserve (her rejection of society by her suicide). I kind of seeing it as her throwing in the towel in defeat. If she was truly of independent and strong will - she would have realized this too will pass. She should have moved on with life. I kind of see the level of artistry that Edna and Mad Reisz had as being proportional to the real bravery each had. (Ie - I get the impression that Edna's talent was so-so, whereas Mad Reisz had the power to move people). Edna was a Mad. Reisz wannabe, but she fell short of the real thing.

I'm reading the project gutenberg eBook and ch 34 is not the last chapter. This section of comments lead me to believe that ch 34 was the last.

What chapter is the last for you? I looked up two different editions before posting, both had 34 chapters. Does that change depending on the edition....?

The project Gutenberg edition had 39 chapters. I guess that the number of chapters for this book varies.

Also, I think that there are some short stories as well if anyone is interested.

Oh wow, I'm sorry. I just went back and checked. I misread 39 and saw 34 instead. Sorry, Andrea. I hope that doesn't mess up your reading schedule too badly.

I'll change the topic name to reflect 39 chapters.

No problem. I just thought that I was nearing the end of the book when I reached ch 33, but as I read, I did not feel as if the story was ending.

Andrea (Catsos Person) wrote: "The project Gutenberg edition had 39 chapters. I guess that the number of chapters for this book varies.

Also, I think that there are some short stories as well if anyone is interested."

What short stories do you have in your edition?

My edition is called "The Awakening and Selected Short Stories" (project Gutenberg) and includes the following stories:

1) Beyond the bayou
2) Ma'Mame Pelagie
3) Desiree's Baby
4) A respectable women
5) The kiss
6) A pair of silk stockings
7) The Locket
8) A refection

I have Beyond the Bayou as well. Did you read it?

I haven't read any of the short stories. I may try them though.

I'll read Beyond the Bayou and if anyone else wants to join in we can discuss that here as well.

Todd wrote: "I was thinking why did Edna and Mad. Reisz bond when no one else really cared much for Mad. Reisz. What did it say about Edna's character?
"


I think that Edna was drawn to Mlle Reisz Edna glamorized her as an artist and an independent and free woman. What we do not know is if Mlle Reisz is unmarried because of a lack of opportunity. Would Mlle have preferred to get married when she was a younger woman? Since she did not marry, does she have independent means of support? Is she poor and supplements a meager income by giving piano lessons?

Also Edna feels that Mlle understands is sympathetic to her point of view and the actions that she takes.

These are the reasons why I feel Edna is drawn to Mlle Reisz.

Alexa wrote: "Well, I would say no; because, as I see it, she isn't committing suicide as a result of her disappointment or as a negative action. I think Chopin meant to present this as an active choice she mak..."

I had a change of heart about this novel from my earlier comments that expressed annoyance at Edna's lack of concern for her children (or anyone else). Her lack of concern was really jarring to me and I had to ask myself why.

I concluded that unwittingly I had the response that I did because in the world that I live in, women are somehow *more* responsible for children than are fathers. For example, I feel that women who are bad, inattentive or neglectful mothers or who abandon their children, are much more harshly criticized than are men who are poor fathers or who abandon their children etc. I fell right in line with way of thinking about Edna. Now that I have had a change of heart (my own awakening if you will!) I see that it is an unfair burden that society has placed on women and minimizes the importance of fathers.

Also, with regard to Edna's leaving her sons with her mother in law: Had Edna and her husband ultimately chosen to pursue a divorce, the children would have remained with the father, who in turn rather than take responsibility for the boy's day to day care, would have turned them over to his mother in any case. Even if Edna, had wanted custody of her sons, the courts would have awarded them to Leonce.

Todd wrote: "Thought it over. I think it may be giving Edna a little more credit than she may deserve (her rejection of society by her suicide). I kind of seeing it as her throwing in the towel in defeat. If ..."

I was surprised that Edna "threw in the towel." SHe seemed to be on the road to making a life for herself (her artistic pursuits, socializing etc.) when she believed that Robert would not return. Up until Robert's return and rejection, she seemed to be able to "carry on" and live her life without him. Once Robert made it clear that he would not pursue a relationship/affair with her, I don't see why she could not have carried on (despite disappointment of his loss)with what she was doing when she believed that he would not return from Mexico.

I don't think her suicide had anything to do with Robert. Edna has awakened to the fact that she is a sexual being with sexual needs. She is not willing to suppress or deny those needs. She realizes that Robert was just a passing fancy and that in a perfect life she would have many such passing fancies. She also realizes that living that perfect life, that she can no longer deny herself, would place a horrific burden on her children's place in the society they have no choice but to inhabit ("think of the children"). So, in order to simultaneously protect her children, and not be forced to deny herself, she gives in to an entirely sudden (just moments earlier she had been making a special request for lunch) impulse and chooses to die instead. That's how I see it.

Alexa wrote: "I don't think her suicide had anything to do with Robert. Edna has awakened to the fact that she is a sexual being with sexual needs. She is not willing to suppress or deny those needs. She real..."

I guess that on impulse, Edna saw no more solutions to her situation.

Throughout the entire book, Edna thought very little about her children. Why would she all of the sudden and impulsively be so concerned with them possible as children with divorced parents and a scandalous mother, decide to end her life because of a burden that might be faced by her children?

This sudden and intense concern for her children seems to come out of the blue when for the duration of the book, she was unconcerned about them.

But look at her thought process while she's in the water!

Alexa wrote: "But look at her thought process while she's in the water!"

I'll have to re-read the end of the book.

Finally finished! Thanks for introducing me to this book, and thanks to Lisa for the group invite.


Alexa wrote: "But look at her thought process while she's in the water!"

She knew her arms would grow too tired to save herself by swimming back. I found the earlier reference to 'feeling her shoulder blades to see if she had strong wings' to be a fascinating metaphor for representing the strength of a female artist.

The ending made me also think of the way that Virginia Woolf ended her life (walking into the water with stones in her pockets).

It is so sad to be mentally, physically, and emotionally awakened to the possibilities of all that life can be, only to realize that there is no place for you in that life. Once you've been awakened like that, you can't go backward and you can't go forward. It is a kind of 'checkmate' (not suggesting that is what happened to Virginia Woolf - hers was a different set of circumstances that brought her to end her life).

@Theresa

I appreciate your comments. I didn't understand why Edna chose (of a sudden impulse) to end her life.

Theresa wrote: "It is so sad to be mentally, physically, and emotionally awakened to the possibilities of all that life can be, only to realize that there is no place for you in that life. Once you've been awakened like that, you can't go backward and you can't go forward. It is a kind of 'checkmate'...."

Beautifully put!

Alexa, Andrea (Catsos Person)

:)