Victorians! discussion

Welcome to our June read of Agnes Grey! In this thread we discuss chapters I – VI.

Chapter I introduces us to Agnes Grey and her family. Agnes’s father is a poor clergyman and her mother is a wealthy squire’s daughter who married him against the wish of her family and who is disinherited from her family as a result. They live with comfort if not with luxury due to the excellent management of their mother. Theirs seem a happy family.

An investment her father makes ends up in a loss due to natural circumstances putting them in financial trouble. This prompts Anne’s decision to become a governess with a view of being use to the family. Her family objects at first but ultimately yields in. However we learn that Agnes is raised in isolation and is overprotected by her mother and sister. In this situation how do you feel of Agnes’s decision of becoming a governess?

Chapter II and III provide us with sufficient description of the Bloomfield family. From Agnes’s narrative one cannot form a good opinion on Mr. and Mrs. Bloomfield. Their children are wicked, unruly and ungovernable. Agnes is inexperienced to govern them. What overall impression did you form on the family?

The Bloomfield family has acquired their wealth through trade. They belong to the class of newly rich. Through the Bloomfield family Anne exposes this newly emerging middle class of north. She shows that although they are rich and have all the material luxuries they are still poor in quality and in their breeding. I think that is one of the reasons for Anne to choose a family like Bloomfield apart from highlighting the difficulty of educated and cultured women faces in becoming governesses to such families. Do you agree?

Chapters IV and V further disclose Agnes’s difficulties in working as a governess in the Bloomfield family. The children become more and more unmanageable. There is no help form the quarter of the parents to discipline them and they seem to be depositing all their faults on her inability. In your opinion why Agnes couldn’t manage her charges? Is it because of her inexperience and her inability to be firm and command authority or because of the parental indulgence or both?

These chapters also introduce two more characters – the senior Mrs. Bloomfield and Mr. Robson, the brother of younger Mrs. Bloomfield. What did you think of them? What inferences can you make from their characters as to social status of the Bloomfields?

Agnes is finally dismissed from her position and is sent home. She is disappointed over her failure, but soon convinces herself that every family won’t be like the Bloomfield. Soon she begins to look for another situation. This time she manages to secure another position on her own terms with one Murray family. We are yet to see how that position will work out for Agnes. It seems that Agnes is determined to pursue with her situation as a governess. What do you think? Is she better equipped now for the trials as a governess?

Piyangie wrote: "Ch. I: In this situation how do you feel of Agnes’s decision of becoming a governess? ..."

Oh, I fear for her. I remember vividly my first year or two of my teaching career--it was nothing like I had dreamed about. But her dreams of going out into the world are what we all dream about: "...to act for myself; to exercise my unused faculties; to try my unknown powers; to earn my own maintenance;.." She knows what she wants.

I do enjoy Anne's prose. It struck me as a bit formal at first, but has an lightness and rhythm to it that makes it easy to read. One great phrase after another. She calls her father "this ingenious self-tormentor". Know anyone like that? Her mother, "like most active managing women, was not gifted with very active daughters". Oh yes--I see myself in her mother. It's easier to do everything myself than to spend time teaching someone how to help me.

Agnes' decision to become a governess is her first step towards becoming more independent and marks the start of her transition into womanhood after being treated as the baby of the family for so long. Due to her sheltered childhood, and lack of exposure to other children, it is not surprising Agnes struggles in her first position as governess to the Bloomfield children. Her inability to successfully govern the children demonstrates Agnes' naiveity, inexperience and lack of authority. The behaviour of the Bloomfield children is likely due to a mixture of upbringing and lack of assertion and confidence from Agnes. Her initial approach is to view them through a fellow child's eyes rather than an adult's and this suggests Agnes needs to grow as a woman before she can succeed as a governess. Her failure with the Bloomfield's is a journey of self discovery so we are hopeful that what she has learned will serve her well in her next position with the Murray's.

Ginny wrote: "Piyangie wrote: "Ch. I: In this situation how do you feel of Agnes’s decision of becoming a governess? ..."

Oh, I fear for her. I remember vividly my first year or two of my teaching career--it wa..."

Very true, Ginny. We all have that trepidation when we venture in to our first job, away from home and our comfort zone. I worried more for Agnes for she had a pampered upbringing. She has such a horrid time at Bloomfield and I really felt sorry that her first experience had to be such a trial. Nevertheless, I'm happy that she endured it and didn't become totally bitter so as not to want to try it again.

Ginny wrote: "I do enjoy Anne's prose. It struck me as a bit formal at first, but has an lightness and rhythm to it that makes it easy to read. One great phrase after another. She calls her father "this ingeniou..."

I'm glad you enjoy Anne's prose, Ginny. I do like it myself. But I had a bit of difficulty getting in to the rhythm at the beginning, for as you said it was very formal. The descriptive tone with which she set about was pretty stiff. I didn't remember anything of that sort in her other work (Tenant of the Wildfell Hall) so I was a little surprised.

Ginny wrote: "Her mother, "like most active managing women, was not gifted with very active daughters". Oh yes--I see myself in her mother. It's easier to do everything myself than to spend time teaching someone how to help me..."

I don't think that was a wise thing their mother did, although I understand that it is easy doing things by yourself rather than teaching and watching they try to do them. But I think if the daughters are not active (as in the case here), a mother should be particular of getting things done through them. My mother was active and comparatively, I wasn't. So my mom used to do all by herself and I have to say till my twenties I was a real baby like Agnes. But from then on I learned a lot about life through very bitter experiences. However, through my experience I think a parent should not raise children sheltered and overprotected.

Mrs Fizzy wrote: "Agnes' decision to become a governess is her first step towards becoming more independent and marks the start of her transition into womanhood after being treated as the baby of the family for so l..."

Fully agree with your observations, Gemma. We hope her experiences will help her through with the Murray family.

I think Agnes did approach her position as governess through rose colored glasses. She strikes me as being an optimistic person, but also as others have noted sheltered and naive. However, I do lay the majority of the blame for her disastrous experience with the Bloomfields at the feet of the family. The children are selfish, seemingly incapable of empathy, and are fully aware that Agnes has extremely limited power and a word to their parents would mean her dismissal. Fear of their parents, rather than a desire for their love, is the motivation for their behavior. Physical punishment was obviously viewed differently at the time with Agnes thinking a good boxing of the ears was just what Tom needed. However, as a teacher, I was impressed by her attempt to use patience and persistence in trying to accomplish her goals with the children. In my experience, most children want to establish a positive relationship with their teachers and will willingly behave accordingly. However, there are some, for whatever reason, who will fight you at every turn and the Bloomfield children certainly are examples of these. As the reader learns everything from Agnes’s point of view, (is she totally reliable?) the fact that the nurse commiserated with Agnes and doesn’t see how she puts up with the children- she having been let go herself for hitting the younger children- validates Agnes’s version of the events.

Linda wrote: "I think Agnes did approach her position as governess through rose colored glasses. She strikes me as being an optimistic person, but also as others have noted sheltered and naive. However, I do lay..."

While I agree with you partly Linda, I still think Anne's character was not developed enough to assert authority. She was naive because of her secluded upbringing. She should have been more stern with them as their teacher and would not have been concerned of the consequences she'll face with the parents. Bloomfields do seem pretty uneducated and of low birth to me (although have acquired wealth through trade) to allow children to be raised as such vile creatures.

I understand your point. I keep thinking that if I were in her place, knowing that I needed to keep my job and wanting to prove to my family that I could be successful, would I take the chance to discipline the children as I truly thought necessary or would I not cross the line that the parents had drawn? Perhaps this dilemma is something that Anne wanted the reader to think about and realize that governesses had to grapple with such situations.

Linda wrote: "I understand your point. I keep thinking that if I were in her place, knowing that I needed to keep my job and wanting to prove to my family that I could be successful, would I take the chance to d..."

I'm sure its what Anne wanted the society to know. The governess position was quite a precarious one. It doesn't class with the servants nor with the family. So even the families were at a loss how to receive them. But if they were viewed as teachers holding an independent position, they should have been able to carry on their duties with ease, authority and dignity.

Linda wrote: "As the reader learns everything from Agnes’s point of view, (is she totally reliable?) ..."

This is one of the reasons I like first person narrators. They are actually a character in the story, and their perspective is a big part of their character development. But Agnes gives us plenty of very specific examples as to how truly dreadful the adults in this family are. Selfish, inconsistent, cruel, and cold. I'm sure that, even though Agnes felt like she failed, those poor children gained by having her around.

It's important to remember how young the children are. Tom is 7, Mary-Ann 6, and little Fanny just turning 4. Tom is taught, even pushed, to consume alcohol and torture animals. Their parents are indulgent, but not affectionate or loving. I blame the adults completely for the behaviour of the children.

Ginny wrote: "Linda wrote: "As the reader learns everything from Agnes’s point of view, (is she totally reliable?) ..."

This is one of the reasons I like first person narrators. They are actually a character in..."

I agree, I believe having Agnes as a character in the story lends a lot to the narration. Also, I TOTALLY blame the parents for the heathens they created. She did better than most would, being put in charge of controlling the monsters

I agree with Ginny and Katie. The Bloomfields were indulgent and indifferent helped create such unruly children. Agnes did try her best but with no backing from parental quarter and they being quick to blame Agnes for everything, there was no rescuing the children from their wild and wicked ways.

However, a question that came to my mind is, given the class of to which Bloomfields were hinted to belong to, whether they know any other way of raising them. From all Agnes says, both Mr. and Mrs. Bloomfield do not belong to good families although later on they had come to money through trade. So perhaps they may have no proper idea what good breeding is.

Katie wrote: "Ginny wrote: "Linda wrote: "As the reader learns everything from Agnes’s point of view, (is she totally reliable?) ..."

This is one of the reasons I like first person narrators. They are actually ..."

I too enjoy first person narrative, especially if that person is one of the main players of the story, like in here. But sometimes, it could also raise doubts on the story's reliability (as Linda mentioned). But so far, Agnes's account seems to be very honest.

This is my second read of this and I never thought about reliable narration before. But it’s true- you never get anyone’s perspective but Angus’s.

Brittany (Lady Red) wrote: "This is my second read of this and I never thought about reliable narration before. But it’s true- you never get anyone’s perspective but Angus’s."

It is very true. However, Agnes shares her faults and her weaknesses too, so perhaps we could give her narration the benefit of the doubt.

Piyangie wrote: "I agree with Ginny and Katie. The Bloomfields were indulgent and indifferent helped create such unruly children. Agnes did try her best but with no backing from parental quarter and they being quic..."

While I don’t think long standing social status or wealth necessarily lead to raising children of good character and behavior, in fact often the poorest families have the most caring and ethical children, perhaps the Bloomfield parents thought that their new status entitled their children in ways in which they themselves had not been raised. Does that make sense?

Whatever the reason, these people are scary. I'm relieved that the creepy uncle mostly ignores Agnes, but the way he interacts with Mary Ann is a warning sign. "He was continually [....] talking about her pretty face [..] and filling her head with all manner of conceited notions concerning her personal appearance.." And he wears a corset.

Linda wrote: "Piyangie wrote: "I agree with Ginny and Katie. The Bloomfields were indulgent and indifferent helped create such unruly children. Agnes did try her best but with no backing from parental quarter an..."

You have a point there, Linda. It is true that every poor family will not raise such devils of children. I'm sure most parents are concerned of instilling moral values in their children. Why Bloomfields were not concerned is something very hard to explain.

Ginny wrote: "Whatever the reason, these people are scary. I'm relieved that the creepy uncle mostly ignores Agnes, but the way he interacts with Mary Ann a warning sign. "He was continually [....] talking about..."

I thought so too, Ginny. The uncle's special attention on Mary Anne sounds creepy. Given his character description he is the sort of man who women should keep at a distance.

Lucia wrote: "I am really enjoying the story so far. I agree on the comments that have been made about Anne Bronte's writing. I would say that the formality and stiffness pointed out contribute to a certain asse..."

Happy to hear you are enjoying the story, Lucia. I agree that the formal tone of the narrative has a certain assertiveness. And I feel it suits the personality of the narrator, Agnes.

Lucia wrote: "Exactly, Piyangie. I expect Agnes will learn her lesson well, but as for now it strikes me as completely contrasting her naivety and lack of experience."

Hope Agnes will have better luck and that her experience with the Bloomfield family will help her in her duties with Murray children.

The more Victorian (era) literature I read, the more I enjoy illustrations. I found a few great ones.

From Ch. 3:
Edmund Dulac's illustration of Agnes Grey brushing Mary Ann's hair: "The dressing of Mary Ann was no light matter"



From Ch. 6:

Wonderful illustrations, Ginny! Thanks for sharing.

Ooo!
It’s wonderful how much variety there was in illustration. Thank you!

I've never given much thought to illustrations. But these are so beautiful and attractive. Thank you for sharing, Ginny.

I'm running behind but am getting caught up. I'm really enjoying the story so far, and don't feel that Agnes is exaggerating her trials--the Bloomfields do seem to be vile people.

I think Mrs. Bloomfield should bear the brunt of the responsibility for how the children are turning out. In this Victorian household, I think the mother is the one who sets the moral tone for the rest of the family. It was her role, at that time, to guide the servants charged with the care of the children (the nurse and the governess), as well as to see to the children themselves. It sounds as though Mr. Bloomfield (no prize as a father!) has way more interest and actual contact with the kids than their mother. Plus, Agnes's description of Mrs. Bloomfield usually always includes the word "cold"; she's very detached from them.

I can't believe, even that long ago, that it was considered okay for children to torture animals. Even if such activities would be considered "boys being boys," it still seems that even those indulgent enough to think that would consider it behavior that should be discouraged rather than encouraged. I know Agnes was chagrined at having lost her position, but I think she was much better off getting far away from that budding little Jack the Ripper!

Cindy wrote: "I'm running behind but am getting caught up. I'm really enjoying the story so far, and don't feel that Agnes is exaggerating her trials--the Bloomfields do seem to be vile people.

I think Mrs. Bl..."

Happy to hear that you are enjoying the read, Cindy.

As you say the disciplining the children and installing in them good morals was the duty of the mother. In Victorian society that was expected from her. Mrs. Bloomfield has severely failed in that respect. According to Agnes she is cold and detached; and also she is too indulgent with her children and doesn't help Agnes in her cause.

Bloomfield children were wild and wicked before Agnes came. So their upbringing till then by their mother has been a total failure. But my surprise is knowing the children as who they are, she didn't let Agnes exercise her authority and punish them. This put Agnes in a difficult position. If she exercise her authority she will be dismissed. On the other hand children were too corrupted and had bad influence from their uncle; so without imposing strict punishments they could not be controlled.

I do wish however that Agnes had exercised her authority and punished them even if she would have been dismissed for that rather than the way she was dismissed for her perseverance.

I started this yesterday, on Anne´s 200th birthday, and thought it easier to read than Shirley which is still waiting to be finished. On the other hand it´s a bit cold in the description, and depressing when I think of Agnes´ struggle with the children.

I agree about Mr. Bloomfield allowing the children too much, and Mrs. Bloomfield to ask Agnes to mend the faults of the parents, which she´s obviously not able to do, being herself spoilt and inexperienced. Love though that she´s not disappointed in her work. I think that she expects too much of a governess job, like to experience much of the world.

I´d never thought of the Uncle´s behaviour, it´s creepy indeed!
I don´t think that cruelty against animals was appropriate behaviour too.

I also wondered how she could punish the children. She tries putting them into the corner and withdrawal of attention. Physical punishment was even at that time not appreciated, as I read in the notes.

On the whole I wondered that teaching was allowed for anyone having learnt something. Today you´d have to have a yearlong study. I´d also wished as a mother to having had some course how to best treat my children, just pedagogical, because I leave the teaching of subjects to the teachers. ;)

I'm happy that you started reading this book, Michaela, and that too on such an iconic day. The first work of Anne Bronte does not have the power and vigour of her later work - The Tenant of Wildfell Hall , but there is a powerful story in this book.

Thank you for recalling me back to the book. Yes, it is a little upsetting to read what Agnes has to go through as a governess. Her naivety and inexperience make matters worse. There is no help from the parents' quarters either. It almost looked that Bloomfields do not really care whether the children are disciplined. Both father and mother live in their own worlds neglecting the children and all the while attaching the blame of their appalling behavior to Agnes's incompetence. The uncle is just worse. He approves their ill behavior and encourages animal cruelty. Overall, the Bloomfields were shown as an uncultivated lot having no idea how to cultivate them or their children. There is nothing much that Agnes can do for them.