Victorians! discussion

Please add anything relevant to the novel

Well, one important piece of background--Miss Marjoribanks is the second-to-last novel in a loose series of novels set in a particular place, like Trollope's Barchester books.

I haven't read the first few books in the Chronicles of Carlingford (The Rector, The Doctor's Family, Salem Chapel, and The Perpetual Curate), so I don't know to what extent the characters and events are informed by the previous novels. But there are parts, like the beginning of Chapter 3, that are clearly calling back to earlier books in the series. A quick Google shows that Dr. Marjoribanks was a character in "The Doctor's Family," but not the main character. There is a "Miss Marjoribanks" in that book, too, but I don't know if it's the same one.

After Miss Marjoribanks was published in 1865, the series stopped until 1876, when Mrs. O published Phoebe, Junior: A Last Chronicle of Carlingford.

Out of curiosity, has anyone read any of the other Carlingford books?

Chris

Not me. This is the first book by Oliphant I have ever read.

I read the Perpetual Curate from Guggisberg and thought it excellent.

Diane wrote: "I read the Perpetual Curate from Guggisberg and thought it excellent."

Have any characters from that shown up in Miss Marjoribanks yet, or vice versa?

Also, a general question: How do you refer to the author of Miss Marjoribanks?

I'm used to hearing her referred to as "Mrs. Oliphant," which is how she usually signed her works, when it was necessary to do so. The only printed copy of one of her books (a Virago Press edition of Salem Chapel, so its feminist credentials are impeccable) also calls her "Mrs. Oliphant".

But the modern trend seems to be to give her her first name back, and call her "Margaret Oliphant." This makes sense to me; I hate when authors are listed with silly titles, like when Mary Sidney is called "The Countess of Pembroke." And it's grating when male authors just get called "Dickens" or "Charles Dickens" but she gets a "Mrs." at every reference.

On the other hand...nobody publishes "Middlemarch, by Mary Ann Evans." And Mrs. Oliphant is how she presented herself and her brand.

So is "Mrs." part of a pen name, an authorial choice we should respect? Or is it just a convention of the time? What do you call the author of Miss Marjoribanks?

Chris wrote: "Diane wrote: "I read the Perpetual Curate from Guggisberg and thought it excellent."

Have any characters from that shown up in Miss Marjoribanks yet, or vice versa?"

I can't recall a mix of characters but it has been several years since I read it. It very well could.

I suppose you could refer to the author any way you wish. People took fewer liberties than we today and thus Mrs. Oliphant was referred to as she signed her name, I'm guessing. I wonder if Charles Dickens, whom I've always referred to as such, was called Mr. Dickens back in the day. Familiarity can cause people to be less formal and Margaret Oliphant is not well known.

An interesting discussion on what to call the author of Miss Marjoribanks. Candidly, I never thought about it before. It seems to me most "big" names such as Dickens, Trollope, Hardy, Austen, Eliot are just that today. We use their last name and do not identify gender. The Brontes get their first names added so as to distinguish among them, but when we discuss their name in connection with their own specific novel it is generally Bronte's Jane Eyre.

If Mrs. Oliphant signed her books with that designation then I imagine that is the way she perceived herself, or wanted to be perceived by others.

Chris wrote: "Also, a general question: How do you refer to the author of Miss Marjoribanks?

I'm used to hearing her referred to as "Mrs. Oliphant," which is how she usually signed her works, when it was necess..."

Yes but George Eliot is Mary Ann Evans's pen name, Mrs Oliphant isn't a pen name. In the 19th century, it was very common for women to sign their published work as 'Mrs Lastname'. It was both the way women generally signed themselves (letters would often be signed 'Mrs Lastname') and, in some cases, a deliberate attempt to make publishing / selling their writing seem more "respectable". I think Felicia Hemans signed her work as 'Mrs Hemans', for example, and being a "respectable wife" was a big part of her image. A lot of people take issue with calling women writers Mrs / Miss because later on referring to women as Mrs / Miss became a way to patronise women and belittle their achievements. While 19th century critics and reviewers typically referred to women writers as Miss / Mrs while also calling men Mr (so you do get 'Mr Dickens wrote that and this' etc), modern (post-war) criticism dropped the Mr while continuing to use Miss and Mrs. Critics who insisted on calling women writers Miss / Mrs were almost always the same ones who insisted on calling fellow women critics Miss and Mrs rather than Dr or Prof. So it was easy to make a connection between the two.

Yes. In the original book reviews of some of Dickens's novels in such papers as The London Illustrated News he is referred to as Mr. Dickens.

This seems logical since the dropping of the Mr. is a modern construct as you say. It is a shame that Mary Ann Evans published under the name George Eliot. It would be interesting to ponder if she would have chosen to ever publish as Mrs. Lewes.

While generalization is always a too simplistic solution it seems that when female writers used male names it was because they wanted to be seen as serious writers of books that had weight while publishing under their female name was a signal that their novel was "lighter" in nature. That is a shame, but it is history.

As a curve to this discussion is anyone aware of a male 19C novelist who published under a female name?

Another twist on the George Eliot question. Why is it that we call her by her pen name, but we don't call the Bronte sisters Currer, Acton, and Ellis Bell--the only names they published under during their lifetimes?

And I have to disagree that the "Mrs. Oliphant" was equivalent to "Mr. Dickens." The difference, to me, is that while he may have been called "Mr. Dickens" is a review, the actual title pages and serial parts to his books said "By Charles Dickens." In the case of Miss Marjoribanks, the title page just said, "By Mrs. Oliphant."

Chris wrote: "Another twist on the George Eliot question. Why is it that we call her by her pen name, but we don't call the Bronte sisters Currer, Acton, and Ellis Bell--the only names they published under durin..."

Possibly after Charlotte's death, Gaskell published 'The Life of Charlotte Bronte' which I think was quite successful, so they possibly became famous under their names in the 19th century, whereas I don't think any comparable work was published about Mary Ann Evans? And I believe within her life Charlotte revealed her identity and did some publicity in London, compared to George Eliot who I think wished to avoid any public interest in her life because of her affair.

I'm finding this discussion both interesting and informative. Thanks for all the posts. As well as not knowing if any man published under a female name, I can't think of any other author besides Dickens who, using the nickname "Boz," published a substantial work using a pet/nickname. Any help or insight would be appreciated. Thanks.

I think in the case of Mrs Oliphant it is 'proper' for the time. In those times a women became an appendage of the man she married in most everything and certainly lost her previous identity, often described just as Mrs Oliphant the wife of Frederick Oliphant (made up that name), or just Frederick Oliphant and his wife (no name at all). I believe that she was widowed when she began making her living as an author therefore it was proper she was known as Mrs rather than Margaret. Quite different social rules prevailed for men, and I believe this was until relatively recently with even women of my grandmother's generation (born 1886) being referred to as Mrs XX or wife of Will XX. She was certainly never called by her given name unless by her own immediate family and very close friends. This was only slightly relaxed for my mother's generation.

Something else that might be of interest in the use of Mr. This was initially used as a term of respect and applied to gentlemen. Originally it wasn't used with the given name unless to make a distinction between several gentlemen members of a family - Mr John Smith, Mr William etc. It wasn't a term used when referring to or addressing male members of the lower classes - Mr Glossop owned the land and employed farmers Will Smith, John Jones, Joe Brown.

Gentlemen usually held property and social standing. Did those male authors fit this category?

Peter wrote: "I'm finding this discussion both interesting and informative. Thanks for all the posts. As well as not knowing if any man published under a female name, I can't think of any other author besides ..."

Mark Twain, Joseph Conrad, George Orwell, wrote under pseudonyms and Sir Walter Scott published his novels anonymously to avoid them clouding his poetic career I think.

Clari wrote: "Peter wrote: "I'm finding this discussion both interesting and informative. Thanks for all the posts. As well as not knowing if any man published under a female name, I can't think of any other a..."

Yes, the list could be almost endless: George Sand, Lewis Carroll ... but I still can't come up with a male 19c novelist publishing under a female name. I wonder if that would have been completely frowned upon.

I can't think of why a man would want to write under a woman's name unless he were writing for a women's magazine or female oriented articles for a newspaper.

Diane wrote: "I can't think of why a man would want to write under a woman's name unless he were writing for a women's magazine or female oriented articles for a newspaper."

Want a bit of mystery on the subject? Try here:

http://debrief.commanderbond.net/topi...

The following list says Benjamin Franklin used the pen name "Polly Baker," besides publishing in his own name (and perhaps others -- I haven't really studied the list here):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_...

Lily wrote: "Diane wrote: "I can't think of why a man would want to write under a woman's name unless he were writing for a women's magazine or female oriented articles for a newspaper."

Want a bit of mystery ..."

Thanks for the link. I presume there is someone's doctoral thesis languishing somewhere on the topic as well.

The above discussion has been very interesting and insightful. Thanks all.

Marialyce wrote: "Please add anything relevant to the novel"

Uh, sorry to be a stickler, but maybe the thread header could be changed to Miss instead of Mrs?

Diane wrote: "I can't think of why a man would want to write under a woman's name unless he were writing for a women's magazine or female oriented articles for a newspaper."

I suspect that a number of Harlequin Romances and the equivalent are written by men writing as women. Not that I read those, but I know people who do and they are almost all written under women's names.