Science Fiction Aficionados discussion

hello and welcome to the discussion of the second book in Octavia Butler's Xenogenesis trilogy: Adulthood Rites! the novel was nominated for the Locus Science Fiction Award.

I thought the first book in the trilogy was really compelling and intriguing, so I'm excited to read the second installment. I'm looking forward to seeing what everyone thinks about it.

I am so behind in my reading, I hope to catch up this month. So far a very interesting book. She does a very good job in building a unique alien world with unique alien beings and their culture. This is a book I cannot predict what is going to happen next. I do not think I have ever read anything like it and I like something new and different.

Mickey I like the way you describe it so far. She has a unique style, I can't think of anyone I would compare her too.

This is my first experience reading an Octavia Butler book. I loved it and could not put the book down.

About halfway through I realized I was reading a deeply personal statement of self-understanding and place in the world expressed in a unique and distinctive creative format.

I felt a kinship with this woman who knew she was different and not just on the outside and who perceived the difference was scary to most people.

She was smart, she asked questions, and she wanted to do good in the world. Like the main character, she might at first seem alright, but one need only see the tongue to know the insides were way different.

And, that was only the start.

During metamorphosis--or, I suspect, when people got to know her, or when she grew up--the differences became more obvious and fear engendering.

One possible explanation for her later problems writing may be that now she had become mainstream.

She had arrived and was no longer the alien. And, like Bruce Springstein, who after making it big could no longer write about a New Jersey working class guy, she was cut off from the source of her inspiration.

These are my musings. I would be very interested in what others have to say. Is this simply my unique perspective from reading one book? Or, can some of this be seen in her other books?

I finally got to start this and am really enjoying it, maybe even more than the first one!

I like Akin a lot - I think I may have enjoyed this book more than the first one too. But both have some really interesting ideas about what it means to be human, free will, etc.

Looking forward to reading this one.

I'm nearly finished reading this one (and I'm loving it).

I have a question that I hope someone can answer:

When humans & Oankali are in their tri-parte relationship, why can't the humans have sex with each other? Why is there a taboo about the two humans in this ménage touching each other?

I imagine this has been explained somewhere in the first two books but for the life of me I can't recall the explanation!

I surmise that no children are to be made without the third sex in there mixing and matching the genes. Read the third book and it will make more sense.

mark wrote: "When humans & Oankali are in their tri-parte relationship, why can't the humans have sex with each other? Why is there a taboo about the two humans in this ménage touching each other?..."

I don't think it is a taboo, I got the impression it was a physical revulsion. It might be an accidental side-effect of the messing around with their fertility, but I think it is more likely something that was done on purpose, not simply to prevent accidental conception (because the resistors' revulsion about touch wore off after time, but they never regained their fertility). I imagine it to be the somewhat controlling and jealous nature of the ooloi who doesn't want to be left out of anything. Remember the scene where Lilith, Joseph and Nikanj are first in bed together, and Lilith tries to touch Joseph and Nikanj says, "No, only through me." If your only purpose in life is to be the middle-man, then you might hold onto that position as tightly as possible!

I think this illustrates one more way in which the Oankali are not as all-knowing and all-wise as they like to think they are. I think this is just one of the ways that Butler is such a master, that she manages to create this emphatically ambiguous utopia. The "paternalistic" Oankali are sure they know what is best for humanity, yet the majority of the humans are at best only barely tolerating the system. In the long-run, will their children make it all worth-while for them? Are such radical measures acceptable if they manage to save humanity? And what radical measures will it take to save the us that is here and now?

In many ways the ooloi are the most interesting characters in Butler's trilogy. They are the subject of the third book, so I cannot say more here. However, I like Akexa's take on them.

Compulsion might be a better word for how the ooloi see it.

Radical measure never work very well. Utopias tend to turn out badly. History is rife with examples of best intentions gone awry. So, what can anyone of us do? Try our best to make the world a little bit better for our having passed through.

Yet if you buy into Butler's vision of humanity, we are all on the edge of destroying ourselves. Although as she sees it, it appears to be "damned if you do and damned if you don't."

I like the way she keeps Lilith so bitter, in spite of her superficial appearance of having totally bought into the system.

I agree with Alexa's second sentence (1st paragraph). And with regard to her second paragraph, at least Lilith is consistent.

the lack of sexuality between human partners in a human-ooloi triad still bothers me because the rationale is vague to me, but I think I'm wrapping my mind around it. seeing it as a sort of compulsion (anti-compulsion?) helps.

anyway.

after finishing the book, I continue to be impressed by Butler's skills as a writer and her depth as a thinker. the first book set up a convincing argument for the ideas that humans are basically a lost cause; the second book sets up an equally convincing argument that utopic ideas (in this case, from the ooloi) that don't take into consideration the self-determining needs of individuals in that utopia are not actually utopias. she makes that second point while still not undermining the first point.

the two books together form a catch-22 that Butler (and Akin) are fully aware of. I was reminded of Le Guin's similar understanding of a potentially utopic society in The Dispossesed, and how that book demonstrates the positives and negatives of such a society. funny that I was reminded of Le Guin again - in the first book I was reminded of her Left Hand of Darkness. although Le Guin is a different sort of writer. she seems more... I dunno, compassionate? I'm not sure if that's the right word. I do admire both authors.

I found myself far more connected to Akin's perspective than to Lilith's, although I thought both were captured perfectly. in the end I definitely was more emotionally engaged by the second book.

as a queer/bi man, I was disturbed that representation of my own sexuality appears to be really sidelined by the author. I understand that the novels are exploring the biological/genetic impulses in both humans and ooloi, and how those impulses usually determine the future of the two species. but I still didn't like how there doesn't seem to be a place for 'my kind' in either society. and both species' males feel a distinct repulsion at the idea of sexual intimacy between men. that was displeasingly deterministic and I'm not sure if it is the author or the book's perspective.

as a 'person of color' (although I don't particularly enjoy that term) who often resents race-based politics, I really connected to how Butler does not seem particularly interested in exploring 'race' in humanity - but doesn't ignore it either. it is present (and racism in humanity is certainly mentioned, on occasion), but the ethnicity of her two non-white protagonists is not a predominate issue in the book. it just is. I really love that.

Yet, remember, even in the pure Oankali threesome, the male and female don't touch sexually. At first this is described as being because they are siblings (and therefore presumably don't want to?) but then there's that scene up on the ship where Akin wants to just touch his sibling (after they've met the sub-adult ooloi) yet he realizes neither of the other two want him to. So the Oankali are socialized to it, and the well-socialized constructs accept it, and the ooloi demand it as their prerogative, but the humans can't accept it and the ooloi aren't willing to give up that privilege? I think you are totally correct, there is no rationale for it - it's just one more power-grab by the ooloi. Sort of like a threesome sort of monogamy? No touching except through me? It worked for the Oankali, but as part of their "trade" perhaps it should have been something they modified? This "ambiguous utopia" is full of flaws like this, ways in which the Oankali and the ooloi demand that they get to make the most important decisions. Rights and privileges (and self-determination) that Butler is portraying humanity having lost due to their hierarchical nature. One more example of the yoke being placed over their shoulders.

I really enjoyed your analysis! I don't think Le Guin ever dives into the deep pessimism that Butler seems to live and breath - she's a far more hopeful writer - but they're both brilliant.

I'm not sure the original Oankali can be described as being either heterosexual or homosexual. After all, they only seem to have sexual desire for the ooloi, never for each other. Yet Akin's Oankali father seemed to want to regularly touch Tino, yet restrained himself because he knew it bothered him. So he was quite accepting of having a male mate. (Although no sex without the ooloi there, for them either.) I think there's a clear implication though, that when the five of them got into bed together they got up to all sorts of antics (only touching the ooloi in the middle?) and all had a great time.

mark wrote: "as a queer/bi man, I was disturbed that representation of my own sexuality appears to be really sidelined by the author...."

Oh! I know it is mean to tease like this, but just wait for number 3! (It's a quick read, don't deny yourself!)

Also, since I think much of this is allegorical of the way Butler sees herself and the world, I suggest the elevation of the ooloi to such a dominant role in reproduction shows she is not content with the normal male/female diad and sees a major role for a third sex.

And, yes, read #3. Very interesting. Best of the three books.

June wrote: "And, yes, read #3. Very interesting. Best of the three books. "

Alexa wrote: "Oh! I know it is mean to tease like this, but just wait for number 3! (It's a quick read, don't deny yourself!)..."

oh I definitely plan on reading. looking forward to it. I think I may hold off a couple weeks or so, but only because there are a couple books ahead of it. your comments are enticing!

Alexa, great point about most Oankali not being heterosexual or homosexual but rather, I suppose, "ooloisexual".