Japanese Literature discussion

This is our discussion thread for our August group read of Sōji Shimada's novel, Murder in the Crooked House. Translated by Louise Heal Kawai on a commission from Pushkin Vertigo.

Here's a link to a Japan Times review that, in my view, has zero spoilers, but note that I'm not particularly sensitive to spoilers...

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/culture/...

One line from the review that made me particularly happy that we're reading this: "This is a locked-room murder mystery, yes, and can be read as that alone, but it is also a clever and subtle satire on the rules that bind Japanese society, particularly in the professional sphere."

and another from the UK's NB Magazine that provides a little more detail than you might want if you're a purist, but doesn't spoil the mystery:

https://nbmagazine.co.uk/murder-in-th...

For anyone who wants to participate but doesn't yet have their copy, this is your heads-up that you have 2 days to obtain it before our discussion officially starts.

I’m planning on reading this one and participating, but it will likely be later into the month, as my copy is in the mail and I’ve got a fairly long book (Perfidia) to read before it.

The review/blog linked and excerpted below includes spoilers; however, it also includes the excerpt below which provides us a good starting point for reading and discussing. (And, who knows, perhaps a member is the blog author... declare yourself if you are.)

The Tokyo Zodiac Murders has a plot composed of three separate cases, only linked by the family ties of the victims, which stretches across four decades and covers the entirety of the Japanese islands – capturing the imagination of the public until Kiyoshi Mitarai finally solved it. Murder in the Crooked House, on the other hand, takes place in a single location, Ice Floe Mansion, where a group of people have gathered to celebrate Christmas. So this is more of an intimate yakata-mono (mansion story) than a grisly jigsaw thriller.

Ho-Ling Wong described yakata-mono as "distinctly darker" than the Western country house mystery. A pile of brick and mortar that almost takes on a personality all its own. This can be achieved by either "strange architecture" or by "acting as a distinctly evil vibe." Some good (Western) examples are S.S. van Dine's The Greene Murder Case (1928), Ellery Queen's The Tragedy of Y (1932) and Roger Scarlett's Murder Among the Angells (1932), but Shimada's Murder in the Crooked House is a great example of the pure Japanese yakata-mono detective story with its bizarre architecture, a sinister collector's room and no less than three impossible murders!

http://moonlight-detective.blogspot.c...

Tim wrote: "I’m planning on reading this one and participating, but it will likely be later into the month, as my copy is in the mail and I’ve got a fairly long book (Perfidia) to read before it."

Cool. We'll hope for smooth mail service and that you enjoy and rip right through Perfidia. I'm wishing I had a hard copy of Crooked because I'm not a fan of reading 385 page books on Kindle, but I should get to start it early next week. I"m also a little backed up with 2 books I need to read and run discussions for starting August 1.

Thanks for all this, Carol. My local library has a copy, so I got ahead and read it a few weeks ago.I'll probably get it out again mid-month and jump into the discussion.

Tbh I'm still battling Underground! It's good, interesting, but I can only manage a tiny bit at a time. Getting back to Crooked House will be such a relief!!

I managed to get it on Kindle, and have been looking forward to it. Will probably start it soon. :)

I didn’t really look into this before starting, just accepted it as a group read and went right in. I’m pleasantly surprised at the darker, horror-ish aspects so far.

Jeshika wrote: "I didn’t really look into this before starting, just accepted it as a group read and went right in. I’m pleasantly surprised at the darker, horror-ish aspects so far."

I've barely started but agree. I also like it far more than The Tokyo Zodiac Murders which I abandoned.

*SPOILER ALERT
I’d never read a “locked room” mystery before, so I didn’t know what to expect. I liked this well enough, though the ending was a little rushed and disappointing. All those diagrams in the book, I would loved to have seen a diagram or depiction of the “chrysanthemum” at the end.
And the way those detectives talked!...who outside of Texas or the south says “reckon” or “s’pose” so often? ( I’ll make an exception for “gonna.” I say that.)

I’m 20% in and wishing I had a physical book rather than kindle because getting straight on all the characters requires me to go back to the list in the beginning frequently. No doubt as a few die, if that occurs, my problem will be reduced. It’s quite a quick read, though.

Carol - I liked the Tokyo Zodiac Murders, but remember nothing about it at all now.

I’m still really enjoying this one, although all the descriptions of placements, lengths and things has me totally lost. And the Tengu room sounds like my worst nightmare.

I clearly need to finish my current book quick so I can get on to this one. It sounds good!

Jeshika wrote: "Carol - I liked the Tokyo Zodiac Murders, but remember nothing about it at all now.

I’m still really enjoying this one, although all the descriptions of placements, lengths and things has me tota..."

[TZM started with 30 pages or so of the killer's manifesto and I was scared to skip it or I wouldn't know what was going on, but I should have skipped it, lol.]

When he started describing the two staircases and which was close to where and allowed access to which floors, I decided, hell, no, I'm not diagramming this out. Just read on past it.

This reminds me of The Decagon House Murders in that the characters are virtually all types and shallow as can be. Shimada appears to be interested only them as people who can be put in certain rooms or witness certain events in service to his solution. But that's just fine. I hit 41% last night worrying about a bunch of serious s**t and Crooked House met my need for Japanese escapism 100%.

Curlysloppy wrote: "*SPOILER ALERT
I’d never read a “locked room” mystery before, so I didn’t know what to expect. I liked this well enough, though the ending was a little rushed and disappointing. All those diagrams..."

I was bewildered by "reckon". It makes me distrust the translation entirely, but perhaps I'm wrong.

Carol wrote: "Curlysloppy wrote: "*SPOILER ALERT
I’d never read a “locked room” mystery before, so I didn’t know what to expect. I liked this well enough, though the ending was a little rushed and disappointing..."

This might be because it’s a British translation. We tend to say “reckon” and “s’pose” a lot. At least, I do.

10% in.

Enjoying it, and agree it’s much better than TZM which ended well enough (though I feel the solution was impossible) but was in many ways ruined by a terrible beginning.

This one seems, though full of so many names, to be dropping breadcrumbs for us to follow.

Jeshika wrote: "Carol wrote: "Curlysloppy wrote: "*SPOILER ALERT
I’d never read a “locked room” mystery before, so I didn’t know what to expect. I liked this well enough, though the ending was a little rushed and..."

Jeshika, this makes me even more curious what the original terms are, if they are Japanese colloquialisms of the time.

If anyone is curious about a Japanese phrase to match certain English, if you can give me a page number (ex p211 of 309) or if kindle, a percent, and if I pass by the local library I can see if I can find the Japanese wording.

Carol wrote: "Jeshika wrote: "Carol - I liked the Tokyo Zodiac Murders, but remember nothing about it at all now.

I’m still really enjoying this one, although all the descriptions of placements, lengths and th..."

Yeah I found myself skim reading a lot of the number parts, and I don't think it caused many issues. I had no chance of working out the "how" anyway. Haha. It would be cool to see who guessed anything right in this book...?

I need to get my hands on the Decagon house murders... I want more mysteries now I've finished this one. But you're right, the cast were basically just chess pieces to be moved for the sake of the story, which I've found in mysteries I actually don't mind. Any other type of book and I would probably DNF.

I hope you're okay and all that serious s**t goes away soon.

25% done:


Really enjoying it and seeing if my guesses are anywhere near close will be fun.


Please remember, the translator has agreed to answer a few questions, so, if anyone has anything related to her work on the book, please let me know.

So far, I’ve noted that some people had interest in the choice of the police accents/voices.

Hope everyone is enjoying the book!

Ian wrote: "25% done:


Really enjoying it and seeing if my guesses are anywhere near close will be fun.


Please remember, the translator has agreed to answer a few questions, so, if anyone has anything relat..."

I had forgotten that! Will be more thoughtful in terms of coming up with questions, too. Several arose with this one, primarily around slang where I’d love to hear her perspective/approach.

I’m almost done and am a bit conflicted about my rating. I suspect that if someone changed the names and geo references and slapped a British author’s name on it, I wouldn’t be nearly as kind to it, and I want to ponder that fact further.

Jeshika wrote: "Carol wrote: "Jeshika wrote: "Carol - I liked the Tokyo Zodiac Murders, but remember nothing about it at all now.

I’m still really enjoying this one, although all the descriptions of placements, ..."

Thank you. You know how between work and home, so long as one is solid/good, you can handle the other? Both are challenging right now, but work is the more messed up of the two. I don’t want to wish 2019 away, though. It’s already gone too fast!

I read a hundred pages of this last night, but it really isn't my thing. The characterizations and setup are perfunctory, like the first three minutes of a TV show before the body shows up. And any author who includes diagrams has admitted he's no good at describing a scene :)

Translators should beware of adding regional slang, because any English translation is bound to get spread around the entire English-speaking world, and the slang will seem silly to someone somewhere. Perhaps I notice it more here where it's British slang instead of American slang, but the American slang in the last book I reviewed (Luminous Moss) was out of hand, too.

I might finish it, and I might not. I'm going to delete TZM and DHM from my to-read list, though, even though I liked Another.

Carol wrote: "Jeshika wrote: "Carol wrote: "Jeshika wrote: "Carol - I liked the Tokyo Zodiac Murders, but remember nothing about it at all now.

I’m still really enjoying this one, although all the descriptions..."
Oh yes, I know that feeling too well right now myself, but we just gotta keep fighting and enjoying our escapes! If both parts are dreadful right now, they can only get better, surely?

To be fair, the character do get some more development after the opening, as the murders are investigated. This probably continues throughout the book.

However, I'm giving up at Act 2 Scene 8, just over halfway through. It's essential in a novel about killing people off one by one that the rest of the characters be trapped somewhere with no means of escape, so the killer can continue to operate. Examples include a cruise ship in the middle of the ocean, an isolated island, and a curse you can't run away from. There's no such plot device here.

The police chose to make the cast spend a third night in the house even though people were killed during the first two nights. That's gross negligence. The house would have been cleared of everyone except the police before nightfall with the interviews continuing off-site.

Jeshika wrote: "Carol wrote: "Jeshika wrote: "Carol wrote: "Jeshika wrote: "Carol - I liked the Tokyo Zodiac Murders, but remember nothing about it at all now.

I’m still really enjoying this one, although all th..."

may...be : )

Bill wrote: "To be fair, the character do get some more development after the opening, as the murders are investigated. This probably continues throughout the book.

However, I'm giving up at Act 2 Scene 8, jus..."

It's a little odder than this, Bill, although you're completely right, of course, about the cast staying put in a house that's a crime scene. (view spoiler)[only 2 people die, on consecutive nights, although a 3rd character is made to appear to have been killed, and he reappears later. And because the killing ends almost as soon as it starts, there's no suspense or fear of "who'll be next" to drive the action. There's not a single conversation in the entire book where one of the house occupants (not a cop) discusses with another occupant his/her fear of being next, or whether A or B might be the culprit. It's the complete opposite vibe of the suffocating sense one gets in a true locked-room mystery. (hide spoiler)]

I'm in a bit of a pickle now because I think this is a 2 star novel, at best. More likely a 2, for the writing, clunky characterization, and the absence of fair play in what is billed to be a fair-play, locked-room mystery. The explanation for the murders involves a ton more information than is available to the reader and the solution for the second murder is absurd. But I owe Pushkin Vertigo a review that frames those two stars a bit more generously than I otherwise would draft. They are one of my favorite publishers and I love that they re-release vintage mysteries. I'm just not certain this novel is one they should have made the effort to translate anew and re-release and I can't think of any category of reader I'd recommend it to, except a reader who reads know Japanese, loves Japanese mysteries and has pretty much exhausted the inventory of translated mysteries.

Has anyone read Agatha Christie's Crooked House? I'm wondering if there'd be more charm to our chosen book for a reader who recognizes some sort of homage to Agatha's story or other connection to other literary works? The first time I used the "add book / author" link and realized just how many "Crooked House" titled novels there are, I was very surprised. Is this a thing?

Interesting to see so many mixed reactions. I’ll be starting this today and will hopefully be in the enjoyed it group, but we shall see.

Carol: I have read Agatha Christie’s Crooked House. It is probably my favorite Christie novel, so I’ll be interested in seeing if there are conections.

it’s an easy read, for whatever its flaws. I’m looking forward to reading your take when you’re done.

Now I'm totally rethinking my first read of this!! I will need to skim through it again, I think. I quite enjoyed it, but maybe for what it was, without judging the, quite possibly, nonsense! I do have to admit that the explanation was bamboozling. What I did get from the book was an overall sense of sadness, of regret, and the neglected house at the end just seemed to sum up the book. I guess I took that as a metaphor for the futility of the murders, but maybe I'm just too happy to accept the book as a locked-room generic story.

As I say, I will ponder the characters and the set-up some more and come back with some more thoughts...

40% done

I can respect people who stop this, but, for me, I can dig it as what it is, so far at least.

Question:

Compared to our other mystery reads, what do you think? I’d say it’s better than For All she’s Worth.

Ian wrote: "40% done

I can respect people who stop this, but, for me, I can dig it as what it is, so far at least.

Question:

Compared to our other mystery reads, what do you think? I’d say it’s better than ..."

As I reviewed our book club reads, we haven’t read many mysteries. A couple of Higashino’s (much better than this. IMO. But they’re contemporary and not traditional/golden age mysteries). I did not read Graveyard Apartment or For All She’s Worth. For me, it’s fair to compare this to say, Inspector Imanishi Investigates (published in 1961) or The Mystery Train Disappears, (published in 1982), both very traditional but not locked-room), or The Decagon House Murders, which is a locked room mystery. Decagon has its flaws, one of which is the cardboard characters, but it’s better than this one although definitely for Japanese mystery lovers only. Inspector and Train I really enjoyed notwithstanding the sexism and other dated stuff.

Carol wrote: "or The Decagon House Murders, which is a locked room mystery. Decagon has its flaws, one of which is the cardboard characters, but it’s better than this one although definitely for Japanese mystery lovers only."

Interesting. I mentally compared it to Decagon House myself, but thus far I find this one less flawed. Though I'm not finished yet obviously, so that could change.

Also, Graveyard Apartment wasn't really a mystery. Just a REALLY bad horror novel (and I'm even the one who suggested it, so I take all responsibility there).

Tim wrote: "Carol wrote: "or The Decagon House Murders, which is a locked room mystery. Decagon has its flaws, one of which is the cardboard characters, but it’s better than this one although definitely for Ja..."

:). Although I never consider a book we read to be the suggester’s responsibility. lol

I've suggested books that turned out to be bad, too. How can you really know until after you read them?

I'm still trying to figure out what the differences are between The Mystery Train Disappears and Murder in the Crooked House, and why I liked one and not the other. I do know I like police procedurals more than puzzle mysteries, because procedurals tend to have more character development in their investigators and their criminals.

Bill wrote: "I've suggested books that turned out to be bad, too. How can you really know until after you read them?

I'm still trying to figure out what the differences are between The Mystery Train Disappears..."

I loved Mystery Train. It was like a Japanese version of a Banacek episode from the 1970s. The police politics were at least as fun as trying to figure out what was up with the train. (And they didn’t tell parents of small kids on the missing train?!??). The solution was brilliant. The writing was more compelling, too.

I only wish more of the author’s novels were translated.

What did you think of MT, Bill?

Finished:

I have mixed feelings, but liked it better than TZM.

Sleep on it before I write a review.

I don’t think anyone has brought up the Japanese name:

I had a chance to stop by the library today, so I took a peak at the Japanese paperback there. The Japanese name is:

斜め屋敷の犯罪

Which I would take to mean, Slanted Mansion Crimes or Diagonal Residence Crimes.

So, probably a good choice to change the English name just a bit, but... is the house really crooked?

I’m about halfway through (sorry I’m slow, I’m moving and working and dealing with a 2 year old, all of which are not productive towards reading). At first I thought the title could be a reference to Agatha Christie’s Crooked House, but thus far there are no parrallel’s other the title.

I haven’t finished it, but a possible nod to the Crooked Man nursary rhyme?

“There was a crooked man, and he walked a crooked mile.
He found a crooked sixpence upon a crooked stile.
He bought a crooked cat, which caught a crooked mouse,
And they all lived together in a little crooked house.”

Crooked as in 'not straight', but I get the sense that, even though there really isn't any similarity to Christie, the publisher was trying to create a connection (maybe to make it easier to 'sell' as a locked room mystery?)

Sent questions to the translator today:


1. Can you tell us a bit about how you became a translator?

2. Some readers were interested in the dialects chosen for the police officers. In that case or any of your other experiences, is choosing a dialect to match the Japanese dialects difficult for you and how do you do it?

3. With such a info heavy author as Shimada, is there discussion on adjusting/limiting/reducing some of that for an English audience, or is it all just translated as it is to keep the purity of the original?

4. Recently there are a number of up and coming female translators working in J-lit and they have in the past few years have done a wonderful job of introducing reasonably unknown Japanese female authors. You have done that, as well as also translating a number of men. For you, is there a difference/challenge in doing one or the other?

5. Please let us know about any upcoming releases or projects you’re involved with and where readers can keep up to date with you.

Tim wrote: "I’m about halfway through (sorry I’m slow, I’m moving and working and dealing with a 2 year old, all of which are not productive towards reading). At first I thought the title could be a reference ..."

Good luck with the move! (We made two moves with a kid that age and it is my excuse for why, once we’re in place, we never fully unpack.)

Okay everyone, I'm getting close to being finished. I've seen some people saying they couldn't call the ending, and that it didn't exactly seem fair play. Thus for fun, I'm making my ending prediction (with spoilers as though I think everyone is finished, I don't want to inconvenience anyone who hasn't).

(view spoiler)[I'm fairly certain Kozaburo Hamamoto did it. I can't really perceive a motive other than his love of making people uncomfortable (they talk about his enjoyment of people stumbling in the house and when he heard Kumi scream he got pleasure out of that as well) and his love of creating puzzles/challenges (both with the "suitors" and the early scene where he's challenging all of his guests). He also designed the house, so he would know the way it worked and all the "tricks" of it. Also, the Golem doll was taken apart, but the killer chose a doll that could be easily reconstructed (again, given that it was his, he would know how to do so). He is also the one who convinced one of the detectives to play billiards and he got the other one to go up to his room at the night of Kikuoka's death. Providing an alibi for himself and others (either they were in on it with him, he didn't want them suspects, or he just likes confusing people further). He even made sure to show the detective that he nocked on Kikuoka's door and that he didn't answer.

I think it is important that both Ueda and Kikuoka were murdered in rooms that were not originally bedrooms (storage room and study), but I still haven't fully grasped how he got into the rooms. (hide spoiler)]

Tim wrote: "Okay everyone, I'm getting close to being finished. I've seen some people saying they couldn't call the ending, and that it didn't exactly seem fair play. Thus for fun, I'm making my ending predict..."

I can't wait to hear your after-thoughts now. :)

I abandoned the plan for attempting it. It will be my first "pass" since I joined this group - I did not miss any of the reads, altough I have not yet finished Underground (but that I will) !

After the not too positive reviews I decided not to spend money and time on this one as the topic/genre is not one of my preference to start with... I will be saving my energies for the next group read. :D good luck Tim with the prediction !

Tim wrote: "Okay everyone, I'm getting close to being finished. I've seen some people saying they couldn't call the ending, and that it didn't exactly seem fair play. Thus for fun, I'm making my ending predict..."

A strong prediction in terms of your support for it!

Agnetta wrote: "I abandoned the plan for attempting it. It will be my first "pass" since I joined this group - I did not miss any of the reads, altough I have not yet finished Underground (but that I will) !

Aft..."

That's an impressive track record -- yeah, buying one you aren't excited about doesn't make sense. I have to buy 80% or so of our books and most of the time, I'm glad to do so, but every now and then I have to step back. baby needs new shoes and all.

Finished it!

A while ago, when I reviewed The Decagon House Murders, I found the most interesting aspect of the book not to be the story itself, but the introduction by Soji Shimada in which he details the history and rules for a “Honkaku” mystery. This subgenre is what typically would be referred to in English speaking countries as a “locked room” or “fair play” mysteries; meaning all clues are given, so despite the improbability of the crime, you, the reader, could in theory solve it as well. I particularly liked the bit of info where he discussed that it’s looked less as a literary genre and more like a game between author and reader.

Keeping Shimada’s intro to the other book in mind, I went into this one expecting less of a story and more of a duel of wits between myself and the author. As such, I found myself having a lot of fun with this read. I like that he included diagrams, and layouts for the crime scenes. I liked that there was a logical reason behind many of the seemingly random bits in the crime, and as I also went in expecting less from the literary standpoint, I was pleasantly surprised by the gothic atmosphere he built up and the personality of the detective Kiyoshi Mitarai, who like many classic golden age detectives, is quite eccentric with his personality quirks, but quick witted and doesn’t miss a thing.

So, did Shimada play by his own rules as presented for Decagon’s intro? Yes and no. (view spoiler)[The clues are indeed all there, and I completely called who the killer was. That said, I solved it using a different thought process than he did (I figured it out based on the knowledge required of the Golem doll and going off the fact that the only person who could understand the house’s tricks would be the person who designed it, and thus the owner HAD to be the killer). From an English reading point of view, one clue involving a semaphore went completely over my head until explained. Some of the random clues that didn’t make sense to me didn’t make sense because they WERE random, with the killer doing them seemingly in a daze. Also, the icicle bit? Pure bullshit. Even perfectly planned, I feel there is too much room for error. It’s such a logic leap, that I feel more clues were needed to convince me that it was even POSSIBLE let alone the correct solution. I confess, I do love the interjection “On this point , the author feels he may have been unfair to the reader. However, he believes that it will not cause any lasting damage to those with a vivid imagination.” It genuinely made me laugh, both at the snark of the note itself and that he felt it needed to be included because of the lack of clues in regards to the method. (hide spoiler)]

From a stylistic point of view, I found many of the characters to be 2-dimensional and cliché (which didn’t bother me too much, because again, I viewed this is less as a classic novel and more as a game based on the rules set prior) and was disappointed that the most interesting doesn’t show up until close to the end. I also had issue with the main police detectives and how they kept everyone under house arrest for the entire investigation. Maybe I just don’t understand how Japanese investigations work (though, I must say that I’ve read quite a few Japanese mysteries and have never encountered this before), but it seemed like a lazy way of keeping it a “closed circle” investigation. Usually in such cases, it requires a blizzard, or that the murder took place on an island or some such thing, but here the police close the circle, allowing for multiple murders simply by saying, “Alright, no one’s allowed to leave until the investigations over.” This seems shockingly forced.

Overall, I enjoyed myself with this one. The explanation was clever (though I feel the logic leaps needed to get all the clues to be just on the border of fair play, I concede he does at least give them to you), but the motive could have been worked upon (that one IS impossible to solve until it is given to you). 3/5 stars.

Haha, that was interesting to read Tim. But yeah, I guessed the who very early on and then talked myself out of it because it was "too obvious" to me. The how I would've never guessed because I just don't have that type of brain, and I was fine with that. The why annoyed me because I spent the whole book trying to work it out just to find out it's impossible to know.

Overall though, I enjoyed the read for what it was and gave it 4/5 for the entertainment.