The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

Phodrick and I have begun a Buddy Read of The Ladies' Paradise ("Au Bonheur des Dames")by Emile Zola. Anyone interested is welcome to join us. The book is widely available free or cheaply as an ebook.

I'm copying here the comments I made on the other thread.

I read the first 2 chapters quickly. I keep thinking of the PBS series Mr. Selfridge about the London dept store. This seems to be quite a bit earlier in time. Also it reminds me of the current issue of small stores vs big box stores and later everyone vs online/Amazon.

Also the stereotype of marrying the owner's daughter that we saw in The Claverings appears here too.

I am in. Though this is my first Zola book. I started Earth but could not finish it, I hope buddy read will be beneficial for me lol!!!😄

I read this a few years ago when I was reading all the Zola books. This is an enjoyable read. The French title is Au Bonheur des Dames, which is hard to literally translate into English. It means At the Happiness of the ladies.
How would you translate that one, Robin? Or do you think The Ladies' Paradise is as good a translation as you can get?

The edition I am planning to read is translated by Brian Nelson.

I have read Germinal and, partially based on Zolaphile Rosemarie's opinions, I had this book and L'Assomoir as the next 2 Zola's to try. I was hoping this could be a Group or, more likely, a Moderator Read sometime, but I couldn't fit it in for the quick timeline Phrod needed, as he was stuck with another group's time frame.
I plan to audit the discussion, though. A silent buddy.

Rosemarie wrote: "I read this a few years ago when I was reading all the Zola books. This is an enjoyable read. The French title is Au Bonheur des Dames, which is hard to literally translate into English. It means A..."

You are exactly right about what the French literally means. The "au" as we have in the restaurant Au Bon Pain, means "at", I think going back to the old "at the sign of" idea. So it's a location for ladies' happiness and I think Paradise works well, especially as a shortcut. Characters called it The Paradise, where The Happiness sounds a little funny in English.

I think of a lot of Zola's settings as very masculine - mines, railroad trains, government- but this will obviously have a feminine side.

There is a description of the store as a kind of monster that eats new merchandise that comes in through the chute, processes it through the store and sends it out for delivery. It may also be a monster to the smaller competitors. In other books, Zola describes other entities like the train or the huge food market of Les Halles as monsters.

Welcome Rosemarie, Nidhi, and Brian! Any level of participation is welcome and if you need more time for the read, you can always come back at any later time and post comments. I am reading in French which slows me down a little. But I am finding it more conversational and "modern" to read than Les Mis.

Greetings! I got the notice about the Buddy Read and it came just as needed something new.
So I just join in and post my thoughts? Is that it?
I’m listening to the audiobook via LibriVox.
Anyway, I’d like to participate.
Thanks, AmyB

Yes, welcome Amy! We haven’t created a reading schedule but now that we have so many people, that would be a good idea. Phodrick is the farthest at 100 pages, but he said he couldn’t read this week, so we can catch up.

Hi all
I just got back in town and am thrilled to see so much interest.
This is my 3rd or 4th Zola, but it has swept me up more than the others combined.
When I get a chance I will try to get some background on the book. As for a schedule you guys tell me. Robin has suggest about 4 chapters a week. I found 1 and 2 almost non-put downable.
Even as it slowed, a chapter at a sitting is easy for me.

Start date IMHO lets hear what works best for the group and go from there.

Thanks for being interested. This should be fun.

If people are ready to start we could go with

Aug 25 - 31 - Ch 1-4
Sep 1-7 - Ch 5-8
Sep 8-14 - Ch 9-12
Sep 15-21 - Ch 13-14 & final thoughts

Thanks for waiting for the group, Phodrick! And for suggesting the book in the first place.

Robin wrote: "If people are ready to start we could go with

Aug 25 - 31 - Ch 1-4
Sep 1-7 - Ch 5-8
Sep 8-14 - Ch 9-12
Sep 15-21 - Ch 13-14 & final thoughts

Thanks for waiting for the group, Phodrick! And for su..."

Second the motion. There may be some challenge in keeping up ,but no penalty for late posts. Also I do not want this book to get dragged out.

It looks like people are finding their own editions.
As long as we go by chapters, what version people have should not matter. Better yet, we may get a variety of Intro s foot notes, feet notes, noted feet<?> and other content from which we can enrich the discussion.

Mine is the U of California 1992 edition, introduction and I think translation by: Kristin Ross.
Mine is a new/second hand edition in great shape and a few dollars cost via, Thrift Books.
There are a few illustration. I am happy with this one.

Background Part I

Zola besides being a female e commerce company: Home of all things wedding- that is an on line wedding registry, planner and retailer is the name of a possibly female lead writer.

image:

Emile Zola, April 1840-Sept 1902 who was a novelist, playwright and journalist. According to Encyclopedia Britannica he was the “leading novelist of the late 19th Century”It is possible he is best known for his Newspaper defense of Alphred Dreyfus published under the headline J’Accuse. He was a leader in the ultimately successful effort to free Dreyfus, a Jewish artillery office then being held under extremely hash condition on a remote fever ridden prison Island.

As a writer Zola was a leader in the naturalist or realist school. His version AKA theatrical Realism.

Realism/Naturalism may be best known in the US for the various expose’ type books than helped to focus attention on, among other things the terribly unsafe practices in the meat packing industry. My opinion is that naturalism often had a POV that being to get away from romantic/heroic type literature and give us real people, and if possible a few scandals. More generally a key to realism/naturalism is human psychology. Freud would have been on the scene closer to the end of the 1800’s but the term had been formulated in the mid 1600s.

Zola according to Wiki, was strong on the opinion that no character be larger than life.

His own life was one of near poverty and contradictions. As a student the myth is that he was so poor he would trap and eat sparrows. Despite his success as a writer he would leave his widow on the edges of poverty.

A running theme in his novels is the hypocrisy of middle-class values. That said his wife had been his lover for several years before their marriage and the mother of his children was one of his wife’s maids.

The cause of his death was asphyxiation due to a blocked chimney flue, but the conspiracy theorists of his day believed it was a blockage created by anti-Dryfusards or anti-Semites or those who had been incited by claims of ”Fake News” .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89m...
https://www.discoverwalks.com/blog/10...
https://www.britannica.com/biography/...

Back-Ground Part twice

The Ladies Paradise, Au Bonheur des Dames was book 11 of a 20 part series, formally called Natural and Social History of a family living under the second empire. Or among friends: Les Rougon-Macquart books. Time frame 1851-1871 totaling about 300 major characters from the Rougen and Macquarts family lines.

Wiki assure us that the emphasis on genealogy and family was because Zola was “highly interested by science and especially the problem of heredity and evolution. He notably read and mentioned the work of the doctor Prosper Lucas,[2] Claude Bernard, and Charles Darwin[3] as references for his own work. This led him to think that people are heavily influenced by heredity and their environment. He intended to prove this by showing how these two factors could influence the members of a family.”

Something on the books:
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Roug...

The title in order and recommended order:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Rou...

Of these I have read:
Nana - about which I remember nothing
Pot-Bouille under the title: Pot Luck also translated as Stew Pot This was a recent group read and got me to look for the Ladies’.
In Pot Boiler we meet our up and coming department store owner Occtave Mourat as a young and hungry would be ladies’ man fresh from the country.
image:

The plot of this book is about the hypocrisy of all of the inhabitants of a middle class, slightly crumbling apartment complex. The men whatever their work or real status are money hungry and proud of their families and mistresses. The future magnate of our book comes to us aged 22 and known as Octave is an man on the make and a seducer. Although how often the ladies are pre seduced or raped is something for the modern reader to decide.
“As a bitter burlesque of bourgeois life, Pot-Bouille”
https://www.jstor.org/stable/43801419...


Much is made of his marriage to the now departed previous owner of The Ladies’ Paradise. In a few words, Octave is likely or is the baby daddy to several ladies, married or other wise in the complex (pun intended) but he ultimately actually penultimate lands Mme Hédouin. By this I mean we understand that Octave is a man of games rather than emotions.

How deliberate? “ Months pass. Octave is back at the Ladies’ Paradise and people are talking of marriage between him and Mme Hédouin. He, however, remains emotionally distant from her and he concentrates on the expansion of the shop, which includes buying Vabre’s shop. Mme Hédouin raises the subject of marriage between them.”
https://readingzola.wordpress.com/201...

Ultimately they marry and she later dies in the shop, due to an accident. She falls into a hole created during the expansion of the store, but I cannot find or remember the degree to which this accident is related to the repeated mis-behavior of her husband our very own Octave Mourat.

If we are on Schedule Chapters 1-4 are open for business.
If there are going to be different discussions for each section than I do not know about them.

I think Robin has already noted how slimier Ladies Paradis is like the Selfrige series.
Selfrige was if not documentary; it was historic Drama. The time , many of the names and events are as they were in fact or with just enough change to make for better drama or to fit into the time allowed.

Ladies Paradise is about a time before the first department stores.
The American General store comes close to what Mourat has in mind and he is going to do to the small seller something like what Bezose is doing to the the same people and some of the big boxes.

Zola spent about 5 years doing the research behind Ladies Paradise.
in French they were called: Magasins de nouveaute` ,New shops or fashion shops.

From the beginning we see the effects of the 1855 Paris International Exposition which brought a lot of Country side French into the capital. Mourat arrived in the last book. You may want to notice how many of the sales and other staff are not native to Paris.

According to my Intro an inspiration for Ladies Paradise is the 1851 take of of Bon Marche by Aristide Boucicault. Besides the innovation of adding many departments to what had been a small store he also added the new idea of fixed prices. Boucault was himself a new arrived Frenchman from the countryside.
He is also credited with the invention of Browsing. IMHO a tad of a reach, but notice how this is a deliberate part of the business plan at Ladies.

A few words about sales commissions. Notice how Zola makes clear his opinion about this innovation.
Against this I can say, having worked under a commission system it was motivating and could have less desirable effects.

William Edwards Deming the statistician behind the Excellence moment felt it was a bad idea. Putting people against each other is not the same as making them a team with the one goal of making your a better business.

What is your take on commissions?

Do you think we are seeing any of what will be called the decadence associated with the Fin de siècle?

I made a point of telling your that in the prior book Octave Mourat as a younger man left behind him at least one too many babies and a mostly soulless existence.

What is your take on him as a business man? Is there a passage that seals the deal on him for you?
Miss Denise is our eyes into the wold of The Ladies' Paradise. What do you think will be her future as the book progresses?

Anyone else with a large scale harking to shop there ?
Anyone want to work there?

Thank you for all this great research! I will post separate threads with the reading schedule and discussion sections.

I have read several of the series but not the one that introduced Mourat.

Robin, I was just browsing a little and saw your buddy read and your mentioning of Mr. Selfridge. There was a BBC production called The Paradise at about the same time that was based on this work of Zola. However, the series was stopped after 2 seasons I think due to the competition by Mr. Selfridge.
It had quite some similarities. Unfortunately, I do not have this book of Zola myself and would not be able to catch up with you, but I hope you will enjoy it.

Hedi wrote: "Robin, I was just browsing a little and saw your buddy read and your mentioning of Mr. Selfridge. There was a BBC production called The Paradise at about the same time that was based on this work o..."

Thanks, I wasn't aware at the time that the other show was from Zola. This book is pretty available through libraries or ebooks and if you decide to read it later, you can always add comments.

Hedi wrote: "Robin, I was just browsing a little and saw your buddy read and your mentioning of Mr. Selfridge. There was a BBC production called The Paradise at about the same time that was based on this work o..."

Hedi, there is a brief discussion of The Paradise TV show in message 5 and message 11 in the first week's discussion thread of the first 4 chapters of The Ladies Paradise.

I just finished 3 rd chapter of the book. This will be my pace I suppose because the text is dense, full of beautiful description. I can’t believe it’s a translation. I like the story but so much description sometimes makes me dizzy. I don’t think I have read anything like this before. Dickens and other Victorian books but they described nature mostly and characters, here in this books many characters are described simultaneously plus study of culture.

I especially liked the description of Denise ‘s smile.

I have read 50 % of the book , was a bit busy , i am already behind the schedule, but that doesn't matter much as i am enjoying the book.

Is there a sequence for the 20 books Zola has written? I have observed this one is serialized 11 in GR list.

There is a sequence, but you don't necessarily have to read them strictly in order. This book works well as a stand-alone book.

Ok. Thanks.
Rosemarie.

Which is your favourite book by Emile Zola?

It is a sad book, but I would have to say L'Assomoir. The title has been translated in various ways.

Zola made a recommended reading order that is not the same as the publication order. As Rosemarie said, they are written to be able to stand alone. The Sequences are:

PUBLICATION ORDER:

La Fortune des Rougon (1871)
La Curée (1871–2)
Le Ventre de Paris (1873)
La Conquête de Plassans (1874)
La Faute de l'Abbé Mouret (1875)
Son Excellence Eugène Rougon (1876)
L'Assommoir (1877)
Une page d'amour (1878)
Nana (1880)
Pot-Bouille (1882)
Au Bonheur des Dames (1883)
La joie de vivre (1884)
Germinal (1885)
L'Œuvre (1886)
La Terre (1887)
Le Rêve (1888)
La Bête humaine (1890)
L'Argent (1891)
La Débâcle (1892)
Le Docteur Pascal (1893)

ZOLA'S RECOMMENDED READING ORDER
(from his intro to Doctor Pascal)

La Fortune des Rougon (1871)
Son Excellence Eugène Rougon (1876)
La Curée (1871-2)
L'Argent (1891)
Le Rêve (1888)
La Conquête de Plassans (1874)
Pot-Bouille (1882)
Au Bonheur des Dames (1883)
La Faute de l'Abbé Mouret (1875)
Une page d'amour (1878)
Le Ventre de Paris (1873)
La joie de vivre (1884)
L'Assommoir (1877)
L'Œuvre (1886)
La Bête humaine (1890)
Germinal (1885)
Nana (1880)
La Terre (1887)
La Débâcle (1892)
Le Docteur Pascal (1893)

Many many thanks Bryan . I will follow Zola ‘s recommend list.😃

Nidhi wrote: "Many many thanks Bryan . I will follow Zola ‘s recommend list.😃"

I copied the above lists from Wikipedia. I would follow Zola's recommendations if I planned to read them all, but I don't. However, the three I intended to read next, L'Assommoir, L'Oeuvre and La Bete Humaine just happen to be in that recommended order.
Good luck to you, though.

Actually I am not able to understand the list 😃except La Terra which means earth, I own a copy of this book. Also I have a book of short stories. Till now I have good experience with Ladies Paradise let’s see if I can read them all . Zola ‘s writing style in Paradise reminds me of Dickens, my all time favourite author the only difference between them is that Dickens describes nature and Zola describes human nature 😀

The titles often are translated into different titles, which makes me thankful for Germinal and Nana, but here goes:

La Fortune des Rougon (1871) - THE FORTUNE OF THE ROUGONS
Son Excellence Eugène Rougon (1876) - HIS EXCELLENCY EUGENE ROUGON
La Curée (1871-2) - THE KILL
L'Argent (1891) - MONEY
Le Rêve (1888) - THE DREAM
La Conquête de Plassans (1874) - THE CONQUEST OF PLASSANS/A PRIEST IN THE HOUSE
Pot-Bouille (1882) - POT LUCK/PIPING HOT
Au Bonheur des Dames (1883) - THE LADIES PARADISE/LADIES DELIGHT
La Faute de l'Abbé Mouret (1875) - THE SIN OF FATHER MOURET
Une page d'amour (1878) - A LOVE STORY/A LOVE AFFAIR/A LOVE EPISODE/ A PAGE OF LOVE
Le Ventre de Paris (1873) - THE BELLY OF PARIS/THE FAT AND THE THIN
La joie de vivre (1884) - THE BRIGHT SIDE OF LIFE/ ZEST FOR LIFE/THE JOY OF LIFE
L'Assommoir (1877) - THE DRAM SHOP/THE GIN PALACE/THE DRINKING DEN
L'Œuvre (1886) - THE MASTERPIECE
La Bête humaine (1890) - THE HUMAN BEAST/THE BEAST WITHIN
Germinal (1885) - GERMINAL
Nana (1880) - NANA
La Terre (1887) - THE EARTH/THE SOIL
La Débâcle (1892) - THE DEBACLE/THE DOWNFALL
Le Docteur Pascal (1893) DOCTOR PASCAL

Thanks again.
I would have never guessed that these titles make a sequence.