Weird Westerns discussion
Workshop
>
How can the genre grow?
message 1:
by
Ashe
(new)
Oct 11, 2014 10:49AM
Mod
reply
|
flag
The story of the lone man or woman with a gun making a difference against evil is as powerful as the concept of the superhero, knight errant or wandering samurai doing the same and is a central theme to any weird western, as it should be. Such an idea is the basis for many a myth, whether told from their perspective or that of another.
After that I think the type of weird (action horror, slow burn madness, sci-fi of some sort, etc) and whether we keep the look of the Western or just the tropes and trappings (i.e. "Star Wars" is cowboys and samurai versus Space Hitler, so very much a weird western without the actual horses and six-guns, where as "Outland" is a Western on a space station) becomes just so much flavor and interesting twists on the myth.
I think Steampunk established its popularity on characters more like James Bond and Sherlock Holmes in a romanticized era of modern technology as it might appear set 100+ years in the past. We need to show the world that characters like Rooster Cogburn and The Man With No Name are another type of romantic, the kind that intrinsically speaks to the desire to stand up when other can't or won't, whether it be against bandits, corrupt politicians, zombies, rampaging dragons or even the Grim Reaper himself. Our characters don't work for the Queen or the government or what have you, our do what is right based on their own moral compass and their own grit.
So it may boil down to what type of romanticized idea we are trying to portray, at least in my opinion anyway.
After that I think the type of weird (action horror, slow burn madness, sci-fi of some sort, etc) and whether we keep the look of the Western or just the tropes and trappings (i.e. "Star Wars" is cowboys and samurai versus Space Hitler, so very much a weird western without the actual horses and six-guns, where as "Outland" is a Western on a space station) becomes just so much flavor and interesting twists on the myth.
I think Steampunk established its popularity on characters more like James Bond and Sherlock Holmes in a romanticized era of modern technology as it might appear set 100+ years in the past. We need to show the world that characters like Rooster Cogburn and The Man With No Name are another type of romantic, the kind that intrinsically speaks to the desire to stand up when other can't or won't, whether it be against bandits, corrupt politicians, zombies, rampaging dragons or even the Grim Reaper himself. Our characters don't work for the Queen or the government or what have you, our do what is right based on their own moral compass and their own grit.
So it may boil down to what type of romanticized idea we are trying to portray, at least in my opinion anyway.
If we want to grow the sub-genre, we need to broaden our reader base and attract more than just the zombie crowd. The American Monomyth (as so astutely described by Philip above) works best on the untamed Western frontier. But how many weird Western writers actually know that much about the era they're writing about? Joe Lansdale comes to mind. Anyone else? When's the last time you read a weird Western that used the environment, the untamed West, to full advantage, where you really got a feel for what it was like to live in that time and place? A broad-based readership is looking for exactly that kind of experience. "The Lord of the Rings" trilogy used the environment almost like characters (especially when we travel to Mordor). The American West should be treated the same way, which makes the genre even more powerful. Pay attention to detail and history in your novels; it's important. If you can get the facts straight, maybe Weird Westerns won't automatically be dismissed as kids' stuff.
Grab your readers by the throat, show them the amazing, dangerous, awesome world of the American West, and THEN unleash the weirdness.
Mod
I am definitely of the mind that your landscape is a character. How can it not be? Much Like Philip said, the lone hero archetype is everywhere already but people forget about the World sometimes. And even if you're doing something like I'm doing, where it's a different world altogether, you still need to figure out geology, topography, town placements, cityscapes, flora and fauna, etc.
Good comments, guys. There's definitely a time and place for the gunslinger vs. zombies but if not used more sparingly, it'll go sour quick. Literary Romance is important too. Roland's quest for the Dark Tower is very much Romantic. It just involves lots of death and dust.
And I like your end point. Though, again, in my case, it's not the American West. I really need to make a damn map of the world. And the town.
John: American Monomyth - thank you for that! That was the exact term I was looking for but just couldn't remember it for the life of me.
Ashe, I'm doing something similar, using the trappings of the Western in a non-Western setting. And you are right: intimate knowledge of the setting is crucial, not just for continuity, but for the world as a character. I have my own map firmly in my mind, but I could use a physical copy. I need to find an artist who's really good at doing fictional maps; it's something I'd like to add to future novels in my setting!
That is the crux of growing the genre: research both the myth and the actual history of the Western, then grab the reader and show them how exciting, terrifying, and wonderful it is. Use both the strange and Romantic. King, I think, unwittingly gave the Weird Western genre a big boost in attention with the Dark Tower, but it's up to the rest of us to carry that torch and show the literary world what we can do with it. And we collectively need to come on strong and fast.
However, I am going to say we need to address the rather surly, burly, elephantine bullfrog in the room that has nothing to do with writing: MARKETING. We can all bring our A game but if no one knows we exist, the way fantasy or sci-fi or horror exists, then we're floundering in the dark. For myself I'll say marketing is not my strong suit, neither is networking which I know is crucial. But they have to be done and addressed. How should we get reader's attention? Can we just band together as our own literary posse and kick butt or do we need to be more diplomatic? Hell, do we form a Weird West-Con for fans somewhere, like a Comic-Con for freaky cowboys, just to draw attention? I know I'm open to suggestions.
Ashe, I'm doing something similar, using the trappings of the Western in a non-Western setting. And you are right: intimate knowledge of the setting is crucial, not just for continuity, but for the world as a character. I have my own map firmly in my mind, but I could use a physical copy. I need to find an artist who's really good at doing fictional maps; it's something I'd like to add to future novels in my setting!
That is the crux of growing the genre: research both the myth and the actual history of the Western, then grab the reader and show them how exciting, terrifying, and wonderful it is. Use both the strange and Romantic. King, I think, unwittingly gave the Weird Western genre a big boost in attention with the Dark Tower, but it's up to the rest of us to carry that torch and show the literary world what we can do with it. And we collectively need to come on strong and fast.
However, I am going to say we need to address the rather surly, burly, elephantine bullfrog in the room that has nothing to do with writing: MARKETING. We can all bring our A game but if no one knows we exist, the way fantasy or sci-fi or horror exists, then we're floundering in the dark. For myself I'll say marketing is not my strong suit, neither is networking which I know is crucial. But they have to be done and addressed. How should we get reader's attention? Can we just band together as our own literary posse and kick butt or do we need to be more diplomatic? Hell, do we form a Weird West-Con for fans somewhere, like a Comic-Con for freaky cowboys, just to draw attention? I know I'm open to suggestions.
There actually already is a Weird West Con, it's just not very well known. Check this out:http://www.weirdwestfest.com/
It's a start at least!
Well damn. That is a start. And I can see it growing.
Mod
http://www.weirdwestfest.com/
It's a start at least!"
Yeah, man, I saw about this recently and I'm planning to see about getting a table for next year's events once the book's out.
As for other methods of marketing, I think the biggest thing is probably cons at this point. Set up stuff for the online necessities, blogs, twitter, facebook, your own site that feeds the others. This is important but cons are the easiest way to sell your stuff. And they're pretty much everywhere at this point and most of them are multi-tiered. Here in Tulsa, there's several, including what is now the biggest, Tokyo in Tulsa. Started off as anime and gaming, has attempted to expand. And since I'll be moving to Alabama soon, I could probably do Dragon*Con pretty easily since I'll be living two hours away.
Then there's marketing via genre. Which, mostly, comes down to ploppin' yourself down into a specific area. If you're going more horror based, then you should probably market as Horror. Since I'm doing a mix of horror and fantasy, I should probably get more focused on marketing as a Dark Fantasy, which is ultimately still Fantasy. It's sorta like Metal. There's a thousand sub-genres but when you market, it's best to start from the top of the umbrella and then go from there. Only a little harder for us cause we're workin in a genre that's growing.
I will say one thing to marketing, and I'm taking this from the playbook of another author I know: banding together and forming an author's consortium. Basically cross-promoting among authors in the consortium. The author I know does comedy-romance mysteries (not exactly a struggling genre, I know) and formed up with about a dozen authors doing something similar. Over time they cross-promoted, both in print and in ebook form, and it's worked out very well for them. She has suggested it to me for what I do. I'm just not sure how others would take it, so I've been hesitant.
I would be willing to try something like that, I'd need more details on how it works though?
Mod
Ok guys, I apologize in advance for the long post, and writing in tidbits. I'm reading from (literally the Kindle is in my lap as I type) a new book called "The Naked Truth About Self-Publishing", the chapter called "Author Support Groups", penned by the author I know Jana DeLeon. I'll be quoting at bits. Her group is called The Indie Voice if you want to look them up.
1. "An author support group is a pooling of resources, so that every member benefits from the knowledge and work of the others. It means you don't have to do it all yourself." And it goes on that in return all in the group have the reach of the other authors involved. As it says, "Ten authors pushing a book can accomplish much wider reach than one author marketing alone."
2. Selecting members is a critical step; it could be all writers writing one genre, but success would be more likely with a cross-genre mix. Also it's good to select members whose talents aren't just writing - that means business, but can also include people who build websites, legal know-how, accountants, marketing gurus and other things. It means you don't have to do everything yourself, but know folks who can help you out as it helps them.
3. Everyone has to work together, so no egos, obviously. It's a common goal for a common success. Then the next priority once members are selected is goal setting (main goal, what is the group trying to accomplish, etc.). Also since its self-publishing and everyone has a different budget, the group would have to decide along lines that would work for everyone's budget. Since most likely the various members wouldn't know each other personally at first, the book suggest finding a common place to meet the others and see if the chemistry would work (the book uses the term "summit"); if people need to be replaced they do, no hard feelings.
4. Next would come the nitty gritty work, such as deciding legal issues, who will do covers, who will do editing, formatting, how will it be paid for, etc.
5. All members, once formed and legal things squared away, use social media to get the word out about a member's release, group anthologies, etc.; a group website, FB page, things like that.
6. And of course have fun.
That's the very pertinent stuff about an author group. The book is available on Kindle if you guys want to look it up and read more in depth, and more from that chapter.
I think something like that for new indie authors is great, but it's a lot of legal wrangling, meeting people one way or another (not hard with modern communication) and figuring out non-writing things. But that's the necessary business side of writing, even publishing for fun and not your primary job if you would want to see your work published. But I can also see how people might be hesitant, or have other issues.
What do you guys think?
1. "An author support group is a pooling of resources, so that every member benefits from the knowledge and work of the others. It means you don't have to do it all yourself." And it goes on that in return all in the group have the reach of the other authors involved. As it says, "Ten authors pushing a book can accomplish much wider reach than one author marketing alone."
2. Selecting members is a critical step; it could be all writers writing one genre, but success would be more likely with a cross-genre mix. Also it's good to select members whose talents aren't just writing - that means business, but can also include people who build websites, legal know-how, accountants, marketing gurus and other things. It means you don't have to do everything yourself, but know folks who can help you out as it helps them.
3. Everyone has to work together, so no egos, obviously. It's a common goal for a common success. Then the next priority once members are selected is goal setting (main goal, what is the group trying to accomplish, etc.). Also since its self-publishing and everyone has a different budget, the group would have to decide along lines that would work for everyone's budget. Since most likely the various members wouldn't know each other personally at first, the book suggest finding a common place to meet the others and see if the chemistry would work (the book uses the term "summit"); if people need to be replaced they do, no hard feelings.
4. Next would come the nitty gritty work, such as deciding legal issues, who will do covers, who will do editing, formatting, how will it be paid for, etc.
5. All members, once formed and legal things squared away, use social media to get the word out about a member's release, group anthologies, etc.; a group website, FB page, things like that.
6. And of course have fun.
That's the very pertinent stuff about an author group. The book is available on Kindle if you guys want to look it up and read more in depth, and more from that chapter.
I think something like that for new indie authors is great, but it's a lot of legal wrangling, meeting people one way or another (not hard with modern communication) and figuring out non-writing things. But that's the necessary business side of writing, even publishing for fun and not your primary job if you would want to see your work published. But I can also see how people might be hesitant, or have other issues.
What do you guys think?
Philip wrote: "Ok guys, I apologize in advance for the long post, and writing in tidbits. I'm reading from (literally the Kindle is in my lap as I type) a new book called "The Naked Truth About Self-Publishing", ..."Sounds cool and interesting. So it would be an author support group and authors getting together to write a book? Cause that would definitely be cool. Like a bunch of authors sharing marketing ideas and on top of it all contributing by writing some short weird western stories.
I think it would be great if a few of us weird western guys got together, all contributed a short story for a collection, then did a kickstarter to get it out there like Ashe is attempting. Get enough money to get it distributed as widely as possible, and get a great cover as well. I wonder if there would be any way to get a name author to contribute a story, such as Lansdale for example. That would really open doors for all of us. But, man, the logistics of that are just scary.
Mod
I'm gonna chew on that some more though.
As a reader I'd love to see more involvement in Cons and/or creating more, even if they're just small. Weird West Fest sounds great, but, being in Texas, it's well over 2,000 miles away from me. Not exactly something I could pop into. There is a Steam Con locally I'd thought about going to since the genres have a bit of overlap, but I don't actually know if weird west folks hang out there. So attending/ expanding on existing cons or holding smaller get togethers would be cool. Combining a western event with a small con would be cool and draw in more people who might not otherwise attend, such as a weird western themed Cowboy Action Shooting event :-DUpdate: Uh so apparently the Steamcon went bankrupt because the hotel they were using charged them $40,000 for not meeting room/food minimums. Soooo if you're going to hold a get together/con...don't do it that way, unless you're expecting a crap ton of people! D-:
I can't even imagine all the things that go into organizing a convention but I'm sure it's a massive undertaking and a large outlay of cash would be needed, hence the Steamcon situation. It would be cool if they had several Weird West Fests in several locations across the country, but I don't know how that would go over at this point in time.
Mod
And cons are ridiculous. Tokyo in Tulsa has like a 20 person core. They've also been up for six years now and have a deal with the hotel across the street from the convention center but yeah, it's hard stuff.
Weird Western-themed cowboy action shooting? Sign me up!
Mod
I'd love to see a werewolf hunt but that's more of an entertainment thing than an actual shooting thing.
I would imagine that the best way to start would be to do something small. And then if that gathers steam, keep growing it. My trouble is I'm not really sure where to find "others of my kind" locally (heck I was just excited to find this group!) I'm fairly well-connected with horse people and the western scene but they all start looking at me a little funny when I start talking about monsters etc. ha ha
WEREWOLF HUNT? Now you're speaking my language! (That's basically what my first book is about lol)
Do they make 1866 Yellow Boy Winchesters in paintgun models? Because then we'd have a weird West werewolf hunt.
Liz wrote: "I'm fairly well-connected with horse people and the western scene but they all start looking at me a little funny when I start talking about monsters etc. ha ha."I know exactly what you mean, Liz. I made a similar comment in another thread. All my rodeo cowboy friends think I'm slightly deranged.
Mod
Quentin: I figure I'll get me a Werewolf hunt at some point in my series.
John: That would be pretty awesome. Might be an airsoft version around.
The sequel I'm writing to "Ghost Marshal" has a gang of werewolf desperadoes. It's fun stuff.
John, I know you are also a serious western author as well as a weird western. Do you get a lot of flack from "serious" western writers about the weird stuff you write?
Quentin wrote: "John, I know you are also a serious western author as well as a weird western. Do you get a lot of flack from "serious" western writers about the weird stuff you write?"No, not really. My "serious" Western work is nonfiction. There's kind of a barbed wire fence between those two worlds. This year for the WWA Spur Awards, I'm entering "Ghost Marshal" plus five nonfiction children's books that were traditionally published (four rodeo books plus a book about the Battle of the Little Bighorn).
When I'm doing research, sources are definitely more open to me when I'm digging into a nonfic project. Little Bighorn plays a part in the "Ghost Marshal" sequel, but I didn't mention that when interviewing rangers at the battlefield in MT. They were happy to open up and help me thinking I was writing a nonfiction book, which was true (I wouldn't misrepresent myself). But the whole time I toured the battlefield, in the back of my mind, I was thinking "Hmm... good place for ghosts. And werewolves."
Mod
John, are you a historian as well or just a history buff when doing your nonfiction research? I consider myself a huge history buff (focusing on the West and Civil War era in particular) but I don't know if just being an enthusiast even with a lot of research is enough to be taken seriously. Would that be an issue or am I just being self-defeating in that regard?
Gang, I think an anthology piece would be a great idea and a big help. If we could find a fairly famous author to contribute that would be a coup, but the strength of our own work might have to suffice. It'd be something I'd be willing to do.
And con exposure would be awesome. I live in semi-rural Pennsylvania; I'm hours from a major city, and nowhere close to where any cons, let alone weird west one, flourish. But I'd love to get a table at one, and good thing I like travel!
It's all something to chew on I suppose.
On the subject of werewolves (my favorites monsters), I'm slowly writing an urban fantasy novel about a private detective who is a werewolf. It'll be my next book after my trilogy is complete.
Gang, I think an anthology piece would be a great idea and a big help. If we could find a fairly famous author to contribute that would be a coup, but the strength of our own work might have to suffice. It'd be something I'd be willing to do.
And con exposure would be awesome. I live in semi-rural Pennsylvania; I'm hours from a major city, and nowhere close to where any cons, let alone weird west one, flourish. But I'd love to get a table at one, and good thing I like travel!
It's all something to chew on I suppose.
On the subject of werewolves (my favorites monsters), I'm slowly writing an urban fantasy novel about a private detective who is a werewolf. It'll be my next book after my trilogy is complete.
Philip wrote: "John, are you a historian as well or just a history buff when doing your nonfiction research? I consider myself a huge history buff (focusing on the West and Civil War era in particular) but I don'..."Well, I've always been a history buff, but for my day job, I'm a professional journalist/editor (with a shiny degree and everything!) The last couple decades my bread-and-butter has been writing and editing nonfiction for young adults (junior high/high school). I've written just over 200 books, lots of history (great battles, Lewis & Clark, WWI, WWII, Rev War, etc.)
Being taken seriously? You mean for a nonfiction historical book? Certainly you don't need a history or journalism degree, although that would help. Really, if you have an interesting tale to tell, and your research is solid, the work should stand on its own. In my own little sphere of influence, I've edited a lot of good history-related books that were written by people without advanced degrees. I've interviewed a lot of "history buffs" who are a goldmine of information, too, especially people with specialized local knowledge.
John wrote: "Philip wrote: "John, are you a historian as well or just a history buff when doing your nonfiction research? I consider myself a huge history buff (focusing on the West and Civil War era in particu..."
Yes, I was concerned about that. I would, sometime in the far future, like to get a PhD in History and teach and write fiction and nonfiction if possible. I had just wondered if I was kidding myself, that just being a history enthusiast was a great hobby but not really scholarly in the eyes of others who take the subject very seriously. I'd be petrified about accidentally passing on bad information about historical events, making them more fiction than reality (we suffer enough from that as it is). Maybe I'm wrong about that though; you've given me much to think about!
Yes, I was concerned about that. I would, sometime in the far future, like to get a PhD in History and teach and write fiction and nonfiction if possible. I had just wondered if I was kidding myself, that just being a history enthusiast was a great hobby but not really scholarly in the eyes of others who take the subject very seriously. I'd be petrified about accidentally passing on bad information about historical events, making them more fiction than reality (we suffer enough from that as it is). Maybe I'm wrong about that though; you've given me much to think about!
Man, you guys have been chatting away huh? lol. I'd love to attend a Weird West Con, heck I'd love to attend any con for that matter. I'm into not just Western but also a big civil war aficionado both pre and post war as well so my likability covers a good chunk for the wild west era.I once thought about making a short story sort of a teaser for A Bloody Bloody Mess...but never did it. If we were to do an anthology I'd definitely reexplore this idea.
Hey Justin I am into the Civil War stuff too. In my Game Warden book I actually have a chapter that takes place during the Civil War. I hope to eventually do an entire horror novel set in that time period. I have too many projects and not enough time!
I just finished writing a book about Gettysburg. Fascinating stuff.
That's cool. Civil war books both fictional and non fiction interest me. My book takes place 5 years after the civil war. I once saw a show on Haunted Gettysburg, lot of creepy shit.
Mod
Today's theme: Do Your Damn Research.
Words to live by.
Words to live by.
Mod
Maybe because we were talking about the Civil War but I noticed this on the side of the comments box http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KTG6WQG
To be sort of super nerdy here, I've actually learned a lot about world building from tabletop gaming (D&D, Pathfinder, etc). Telling a successful story in those types of games relies very heavily on knowledge of where famous places are, mountain ranges, forests, ecology, types of food locals eat and so on, and consistency. It really helped me out when doing my own world building in my writing.
Mod
I wish I could say I found a great solution to how we can grow the genre, but this tale is an interesting side note:
I was doing some SEO (search engine optimization) keyword research on weird western today while in the course of marketing, and found that monthly searches for that in places like Google are very small, almost insignificant, whereas genres like fantasy and sci-fi get hundreds of searches a month.
What does this mean for us?
Well, I'm not sure. In the big picture, at least as far as marketing is concerned, not many people know we as authors or fans and the sub-genre exists and most likely aren't going to stumble upon our work unless it is bundled in with something else or listed along with a better known genre. That's a big inhibitor to sales. And SEO is one of the the biggest indicators of how "visible" we are on the web. Having some big breakout hits, like cyberpunk and its sub-genres have had, would help of course to make us more visible in the public eye. But we still need to get more visible in any case.
Any new thoughts on the subject of growing the genre, or thoughts on SEO and marketing with a niche story, to a niche audience perhaps?
I was doing some SEO (search engine optimization) keyword research on weird western today while in the course of marketing, and found that monthly searches for that in places like Google are very small, almost insignificant, whereas genres like fantasy and sci-fi get hundreds of searches a month.
What does this mean for us?
Well, I'm not sure. In the big picture, at least as far as marketing is concerned, not many people know we as authors or fans and the sub-genre exists and most likely aren't going to stumble upon our work unless it is bundled in with something else or listed along with a better known genre. That's a big inhibitor to sales. And SEO is one of the the biggest indicators of how "visible" we are on the web. Having some big breakout hits, like cyberpunk and its sub-genres have had, would help of course to make us more visible in the public eye. But we still need to get more visible in any case.
Any new thoughts on the subject of growing the genre, or thoughts on SEO and marketing with a niche story, to a niche audience perhaps?
SEO only works for certain markets and topics, however given the fact that Weird Westerns are so underrated and not known you'd think we could capitalize on it by making this group or something else the essential #1 site that pops up under a SEO search.
Mod
See, I went the other way: started at Western and worked my way up to Weird West. At its heart, "Ghost Marshal" is a straight-up Western, with horses and Peacemakers and barroom brawls and shootouts. Plus, you know, ghosts. And demon owls. Point is, I think Weird West is a pretty big tent, accommodating everything from "Dead in the West" to "High Plains Drifter." Maybe that's part of the problem, as far as marketing goes. It's as nebulous as saying you've written a Romance. Well, what kind, exactly?
Yep, you're right John. "Brackett Hollister" is also basically a straight-up western, but with magic,werewolves, etc. At the same time, it's also a "horror-western." Ashe and Phillip actually seem to be building worlds, which would cross more into Western Fantasy. So our task is, we have to make "Weird Western" into a popular broad genre similar to "Romance", "Mystery", etc. We can do that right? Right? o.O
I think the key with weird western seo, and and really marketing as well, is that most people don't know to call it "weird western" so you have to break it down to its parts. When I first went looking for what I discovered were called weird westerns I was looking for a "space western" but had no idea how to search for that or if the genre even existed outside of Firefly. I actually only just recently found the books I was craving in the Guns of Seneca Six series, but the winding path I took to find what I was looking for ran me into Ed's books and, well, I was solidly hooked after that. So breaking it up and using keywords like "western warewolves, western horror, alternative western" will help wandering Strangelings like myself track down the genre, but also include weird western of course because once you that what you're looking for has a name, it makes it WAY easier to find more :)
