The Sword and Laser discussion

I finished the book yesterday and have mixed feelings about it. How are people liking this? Does it live up to its hype?

For me the answer is "not really" and that's too bad. When it was picked I had a flashback moment to my teen years. Teen budget means I went to used bookstores and bought what I could from the books available. If I liked an author I would target them for later purchases. This means buying and reading was subject to other people selling their books. I made infrequent purchases of well loved authors new, as for instance the hardbacks of Dragonriders of Pern, Niven's new works, or the oneshot "A Time When" which became "White Dragon." For those I had to save up though.

So on viewing this book my thought was "is this an author I somehow managed to miss?" Perhaps it was some great material that, due to the vagaries of youth I'd just not come across. Maybe there was a reading blitz in order with the several sequels?

Well, the short answer is "no." This book isn't terrible, but it definitely didn't excite me. It's interstellar intrigue, same subject material as, say, Anderson's "Polesotechnic League" books but not as well constructed.

(full books spoilers below)
(view spoiler)[We've got "Mary Sue Moon" chosen-oneing her way through the book. Everyone around her dies but she lives, to implement the will of the shadowy "Sibyl Database" left behind by the Old Empire to help their descendants lift themselves back into a technological society after a Foundation style fall.

Her cousin/lover (ick) gets separated early on, to fall into a series of obvious tropes. Yep, newbie to the city Sparks gets picked up by a grifter, robbed, and left in an alley. Oh, what a surprise. I rolled my eyes hard at this one and skimmed until it was over. Then, yep, the Queen rolls him into her conspiracy and gets him to do repugnant things, all because she looks like her clone Moon. It's amoral people doing amoral things. Amorally!

There's way too many instances of items being revealed as they are needed plotwise. The most egregious was when Moon needed to not be pushed off the Bridge by the winds, and the Sibyl database stopped them for her. Then, sudden reveal, the physical location of the database is right below her, but that must not be revealed because....I can't even come up with a justification.

Gruesomeness abounds. The "Mers," a sea dwelling species, are killed wholesale to create a shortlived serum that grants the taker youth. Can't synthesize it, can't freeze it, can't do anything but kill over and over again. Then we find out that the Mers are intelligent, and are apparently the last to know because the interstellar government has been covering that up. And as for succession, it's done by human sacrifice as the previous regime's queen and her consort are forced to drown in some kind of callback to an ancient religion worshiping the embodiment of the sea. An interstellar empire allows this?

The book is billed as hard science fiction, and there is a patina of that. The voyage through the black hole follows what was known at the time, and would probably be fine today. But there's precious little actual science in this book. Nor is there much in the way of characterization as the main actors in the book represent one stereotype after another. (hide spoiler)]

I didn't hate it, but it was on the low end of books I've read, even allowing for the age of the novel. Might read the sequel just to get the end of the story, but that'll be after the current TBR is exhausted. No hurry.

I read the prologue last night before falling asleep. Those three pages were fine. Intriguing, even.

Hah! Since you brought it up I had a vague thought of looking at the prologue again, but I've already turned the book back in. Probably an S&Ler is reading it right now since the queue jumped a bit when the book was announced.

But anyway, I recall the book being 498 pages, so you should be okay to read the spoiler section in... *squints* another 495 pages or so.

I am quite enjoying it (about 70% in). Good SF but with a bit of a fantasy vibe.

I just hit page 81/chapter 8 and it’s still building the world. I quite like it so far. Reminds me of Dune or that second Pitch Black movie, erm... ah, The Chronicles of Riddick.

I finished today. I rated it ★★★★☆

I really enjoyed it. It had a great world and well rounded characters.

I'm not sure I'll read the sequels. I liked where it ended and don't feel a need to find out what happens next.

Read another ~50 pages and I’m thoroughly enjoying it. I was always under the impression it was a Fantasy novel, so I’m fairly surprised to discover 39 years later that it’s Science Fiction.

First go I bounced.. But I have been teaching 200 undergrads for five weeks and my head is tired. Put it down and reading something lighter before having another go....

Liked the variation of characters, each with a distinct motivation and personality, but something just did not hit the mark for me with the story itself. I liked the fantasy/sci-fi vibe. Voices in the audiobook were sometimes a little confused as the narrator seemed to use the wrong accent for people, or maybe I was not listening thoroughly enough. Overall I found it a middle of the road listen, and pleased that the female lead was not the generic emotionally detached badass that seems popular at the moment.

I'm 60% thru and I like it. It is curious but the style reminds me of her then-husband A Fire Upon the Deep

To be honest I gave up on it. I gave it a couple of chapters but just couldn't get into it. It had an old timey feel to the writing, like Slan, and I just didn't care for it. Glad I at least tried it, always good to try something different.

^FWIW it picks up at about the 25% mark, or at least that's when I stopped wanting to lem it. But it only got up to an average SF novel for me. I don't get how this was a Hugo winner. And not in an easy year, it beat Silverberg's return to writing in Lord Valentine's Castle, and Ringworld Engineers.

I am about 70% done and it is slightly above average of old books. I can see how it influenced some of the present writers. I can see how it won Hugo.

I'm almost at 50% and it's okay so far. I do enjoy it while I'm reading but whenever I put the book aside, I don't have a particular urge to go back.

Mostly, I want to find out more about the world and I like Jerusha and Sparks as characters. The others, while I enjoy reading about them, are kind of pale in my imagination.
I'm also really curious to see how much of the Snow Queen fairy tale I can recognise in this version or if that was even the author's intention.

So far, no plans of lemming the book. It's not an instant hit but it's fun enough.

I am a little over halfway myself, about a 3 star read for me. Sparks and Moon just reconnected. that was quite good and unexpected I thought. I am hooked depending on the ending could become a 4 star.

John (Taloni) wrote: "^FWIW it picks up at about the 25% mark, or at least that's when I stopped wanting to lem it. But it only got up to an average SF novel for me. I don't get how this was a Hugo winner. And not in an..."

I agree, it's not bad I don't see how it could have beaten Lord Valentines Castle for the Hugo.
Just finished the book today as I had 2 days in bed with the flu. If I had read this at my normal speed then I think I would have lost interest.

I’m only 36% in but two things have jumped out at me so far:

1. I find Sparks and Moon’s relationship super codependent and unhealthy. Wondering if this is intentional and will play out by the end or if this is just a product of the time.

2. Is anyone else getting Star Wars vibes from this? The book came out in 1980 and A New Hope came out in 1977. I wonder if she started writing it before or after ANH came out. References to the Old Empire and (view spoiler)[ the Kharemoughis talking like Yoda <\spoiler> made me wonder... (hide spoiler)]

Vanessa wrote: "2. Is anyone else getting Star Wars vibes from this? The book came out in 1980 and A New Hope came out in 1977. I wonder if she started writing it before or after ANH came out. "

A little, I guess, but this was published the month before Empire Strikes Back was released, so she couldn’t have known about Yoda.

Trike wrote: "Vanessa wrote: "2. Is anyone else getting Star Wars vibes from this? The book came out in 1980 and A New Hope came out in 1977. I wonder if she started writing it before or after ANH came out. "

A..."

Oops! I should have known that. Maybe Lucas copied from her! (I know that’s unlikely given the timing. I jest.)

Warning: Very pedantic geek."well actually" correction ;-)

Vanessa wrote: "A New Hope came out in 1977"

"Star Wars" came out in 1977. The appendage "A New Hope" was added for the 1981 theatrical re-release.

and Han shot first ;-)

Yes, I know --> NERD :-)

I am 40% in and I am really enjoying it so far. It's quite a bit different than other SF books we've been reading.

Yes, both StarWars vibe and also cyberpunk (after all, printred in 1980). “future is now” Japan is reminiscent of hi-tech fixed society of Kharemough. And Pollox as 3PO

Considering that both Neuromancer and Cyberpunk came out some years *after* The Snow Queen, I'd say TSQ must have been very innovative and progressive, and that it must have inspired a lot of the SF literature and movies of the 80s.

Definitely not getting any cyberpunk from this.

Eva wrote: "Considering that both Neuromancer and Cyberpunk came out some years *after* The Snow Queen, I'd say TSQ must have been very innovative and progressive, and that it must have inspired a lot of the S..."

William Gibson's first published story, ‘Fragments of a Hologram Rose,’ is from 1977. The first Sprawl story, Johnny Mnemonic was published in 1981, so a year, not years. The earliest cyberpunk universe is maybe Judge Dredd comics from 1977.

Trike wrote: "Definitely not getting any cyberpunk from this."

I was not talking about the style of dystopic corporation-controlled future with a hacker as an anti-establishment hero, which encompasses cyberpunk. More about a fear of Japan that in the 80s seems about to overcome the US. The same can be seen in a non-cyberpunk or even SF movie Die hard (1988).

Finished. Still quite good on a decades later re-read.
Now I suppose I will have to re-read The Summer Queen as I find I remember almost nothing about it.

Oleksandr wrote: "Trike wrote: "Definitely not getting any cyberpunk from this."

I was not talking about the style of dystopic corporation-controlled future with a hacker as an anti-establishment hero, which encomp..."

I haven’t gotten to anything resembling that.

Vanessa wrote: "I’m only 36% in but two things have jumped out at me so far: ...2. Is anyone else getting Star Wars vibes from this? ...."

I didn't really get a Star Wars vibe until the (view spoiler)[scene when Arienrhod confronted Moon on the wind bridge (hide spoiler)]. For me, that was very Star Wars-ish lol.

Tassie Dave wrote: "I finished today. I rated it ★★★★☆ I really enjoyed it. It had a great world and well rounded characters.
I'm not sure I'll read the sequels..."

Same here. 4 stars, really enjoyed it. I am curious how they're going to avoid the techpocalypse so I might read on, but I have a LOT of other books on my Want to Read list...

Finally the plot has unblocked and started moving at a pace faster than glacial..... only 2/3 of the way in. Seems very Vingean

Vernor Vinge wrote True Names, which was totally a seminal cyberpunk story. It's entirely the reason that the programmer geeks who ran Unicon (Maryland con, there were others) invited him as GOH. So if there's a cyberpunk vibe in The Snow Queen, his nerditude might have influenced Joan. I don't know that I see it, though....

(Seriously, we were all awestruck by the story. It was a different set of people who invited Joan as GOH a few years later.)

I'm halfway through the reread. I feel like I did the first time - I want to have finished it, but I *really* don't want to actually read it. (Reading the end, which I always do, doesn't count.)

^ You ain't alone. I probably read the last 50 pages of the second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant at least a dozen times. The trilogy that lead up to it, though, maybe twice.

Yeah, I just finished, and it's... a mixed bag. Making them cousins (and for all intents and purposes adopted siblings, even) seemed unnecessarily squicky, and Vinge kept introducing interesting characters and ideas and not exploring them enough (view spoiler)[(and outright killing them off, in the case of Elsevier) (hide spoiler)]. The whole love polyhedron was, frankly, less than thrilling and caused a distinct blue shift in the prose whenever it cropped up. But the world was pretty interesting - I really liked the concept of the Sybils - , the characters are mostly complex and interesting, and there's a decent amount of intrigue to the plot. Overall, it's a 3/5 to me.

Also, re: the Star Wars vibe: Mostly the Luke Skywalker style names and the characters of Tor and Pollux (which, anybody else want to read about their exploits? They've got great chemistry together), everything else felt more like its own thing to me.

I'm about a quarter of the way through and enjoying it well enough. The pacing is slower than I usually like, but I was expecting that, considering the year it was published. I agree that the Moon-Sparks relationship is kind of gross. I wish they had just been friends rather than lovers.

I have basically given up. The pacing is slow and honesty, my life has been pretty hectic lately so when I’m reading, I want something moving faster if possible.

Maybe I’ll come back to it. Maybe not.

I liked the Tor/Pollux relationship to Dominik. a surprisely interesting subplot

I liked it, even if the pacing was a little slow. I was satisfied with the ending so I don’t really feel the need to continue the series, though.

I finished over the weekend, and I liked it. I'm mildly curious about the rest of the series but I don't feel the need to pick them up right away. This is definitely a complete book despite being part of a series, which I really appreciate.

I finally finished... had to start over because I was confused about half way through, so I read a synopsis and decided to give it another try. I ended up really enjoying it other than Sparks.

I just finished it last a few days ago and enjoyed it. It was interesting comparing it with the Hans Christian Andersen fable -- It's been a long time since I've read the fable, but Sparks was based on the character of Kai, who turned evil due to the influence of the Snow queen and is saved through the power of love (Gerda = Moon).