Fans of British Writers discussion

Starting on Jan. 1, several of us will be reading The White Company together as a multi-person "buddy read" (our group's first since we added that option!). Since things will be busy and hectic at the start of the new year, I thought it wouldn't hurt to get this discussion thread now, so as to be ready for us when we need it. This will be the place for any and all comments, links to reviews, questions, background material, etc. about this book, both next month and anytime someone reads it in the future!

I'm in for this one too, in January.

I've read six chapters so far and am enjoying the atmosphere created by Doyle, especially the authentic feel to the setting.

I have been there myself, Rita. I am trying to read two chapters a day.

I'm into Chapter 8. So far, I'm enjoying it thoroughly!

Beaulieu Abbey, where the novel opens, was an actual Cistercian monastery in real life, located in England's county of Hampshire, which is situated on the middle of the southern coast, just north of the Isle of Wight. The 1976 Buccaneer Books edition, in which I'm reading the book, is illustrated with black-and-white photographs; it has two of the abbey, inside and outside, although since Henry VIII's dissolution of the monasteries the complex has fallen partially fallen into ruins. (Abbot Berghersh is fictional, but a number of real-life persons are referred to in the novel.)

It gets less confusing in the next few chapters. It took me a while to get used to the old-fashioned language.

There is a lot of historical detail, which is interesting but does tend to slow down the story, which is entertaining.

I am a tenth of the way in (isn't Kindle useful?) and have just become acclimatised to the Forsoothery.

Is anyone else slightly surprised that the Black Death seems not have left a deeper mark on the survivors? From the hints of Sir John Hawkwood's career (he's just gone to Italy) it's set in the early 1360s, less than 15 years after the height of the plague.

Forsoothery--I like that description of the language.

Rosina wrote: "Is anyone else slightly surprised that the Black Death seems not have left a deeper mark on the survivors? From the hints of Sir John Hawkwood's career (he's just gone to Italy) it's set in the early 1360s, less than 15 years after the height of the plague."

The date given in in the first chapter (in the write-up of the charges against John) is 1366; so yes, this would be only about 17 years after the Black Death, which was in 1348-49. The plague is mentioned in the conversation at the Pied Merlin, where different members of the company mention its economic effects, both good and bad; but you're right that there's not much mention of it (so far; I'm into Chapter 12) in the book as a whole. Doyle's plot is more concerned with the characters' present, so he doesn't have a lot of occasion to mention the past (even the recent past).

I think the Flagellants were 'inspired' by the Black Death, to show God that not all his creatures were mindless sinners who deserved to be exterminated.

The chap who lost his clothes to John had buried the charcoal burner's son during the plague. Although that may have been the return of the plague in 1361 - according to Wikipedia (In 1361–62 the plague returned to England, this time causing the death of around 20 percent of the population.)

On the other hand, it would be a very different book if everyone went round fearful of infection, and mourning their death! I am looking forward to it moving to France.

I've read two more chapters. They are now onboard ship and the plot is getting more exciting.

That's good. I have been reading two chapters a day because I am also reading some books for group reads in other groups.
It takes a while to get used to the language but I like the plot. The book has a feel of historical accuracy that l like.

I'm also up to the part where our heroes have just embarked on the ship.

Rosemarie wrote: " The book has a feel of historical accuracy that l like." Doyle put in about two years of serious research on 14th-century life for this novel. Historical accuracy was important to him, and it definitely shows.

Just as Scott somewhat modernized the Old English speech of his Saxon characters in Ivanhoe, so that his 19th-century readers could understand it, Doyle modernizes the Middle English of the day here. (To get an idea of what English speech in the 14th century was actually like, read or listen to some excerpts from an un-modernized edition of The Canterbury Tales.) But both authors (and Stevenson too, in The Black Arrow) reproduce a lot of medieval diction and archaisms, to give the dialogue a realistic flavor. A contrasting approach is illustrated in the medieval (and other) novels of 20th-century British historical novelist Norah Lofts, who avoided anachronisms but otherwise wrote her dialogue in essentially modern speaking style. I like all four of these authors, and see converse merits in both approaches; Lofts' reads more easily, but the more archaic speech in the others creates more atmosphere and verisimilitude.

I am now just over half way. They have arrived in Bordeaux and the two knights met the prince, among others.
The White Company is briefly mentioned, but not in a good way.

Chapter 20 is a good one!

It’s interesting that some words (places) are a bit tricky to find definitions, explanations etc. I am reading this on Gutenberg Pro so it doesn’t have the excellent reference that Kindle has when you highlight a word but it is free. Fascinating start to things! I’ll catch up though.

That happens sometimes.
I am about two thirds of the way through, and a lot has happened, even though they haven't actually gone to war yet.

In chapter 18 we see what the life of the French peasants is like in a war-torn country.

Rita, that happens to me a lot! I have to reread things sometimes. It can be frustrating. I’ve noticed certain styles of writing are harder to read than others. The language used by some authors from the 1800s can be challenging for me sometimes. But I also have ADD, aggravated by lupus, so that is part of it, however the language doesn’t flow like the patterns of speech and communication that we use today so it can trip a person up sometimes. I listen to a lot of recorded books and some I can do things and listen and others require my complete attention. I tend to read scientific works more than listen to them because of this. This may just be me, but I think it can happen to others for a variety or reasons. I also start books and put them aside for other times and then have to start over from the beginning or at least a good portion of what I’ve covered.

I know what you mean. The atmosphere in those books had an authentic feel too.

I just finished the book. The last few chapters are very exciting.

Thanks, Rita. Happy reading!

Okay guys,

So I tried reading on a device for the first time, and it isn't going very well. I'm going to have to find this at my local library. I'm only two chapters in, but I laughed out loud when they were reading the charges against Brother John? It was late, and I was tired so maybe that had something to do with it. I'm excited to read more based on what everyone is saying.

Hoping to read more this year, but I've been pursuing a dream of writing, and more of my attention will be on that in 2020. If I become a ghost for awhile that is probably why. Happy New Year to the group!

Thank you.

John is one of my favourite characters in the book.

Rosemarie wrote: "Chapter 20 is a good one!"

Rosemarie, I definitely agree!

E.L. wrote: "I've been pursuing a dream of writing, and more of my attention will be on that in 2020. If I become a ghost for awhile that is probably why. Happy New Year to the group!"

Best wishes for much success with your writing, E.L.! Happy New Year to you too.

May your writing plans work out, E.L. Have a great year!

E.L., The charges were funny, as we all know just looking at a woman is the path to the devil. Snort! And the tattletale gets it, too! I liked that part. No one likes a grass. It’s a very interesting read!

I think my new favorite word is “galleybagger”. That is the Peter the Fuller says he looks like with John the bad monk stealing all his clothes. Poor sod!

I have read eight chapters so far and I am utterly enjoying the book. I am reading at a slow pace because I have to consult the dictionary or Medieval World atlas so very often. The scene at the inn reminded me of The Canterbury Tales. Was it intentional?

Like Oksana, I too am looking up a lot of words! There are many many different words for drinking containers and flask, flagon, etc. and being archaic, some have to be googled. But it’s been quite an education! I’m actually quite enjoying it, but it does make the reading a wee bit slow going. I did learn the difference between flouting and flaunting. There are some archaic definitions of words that we don’t use anymore (duh, that’s why they’re archaic, Sarah) but that I wish were still the mode.
Reading this on Geutenberg App I don’t have the same highlighting and saving underlined passages as Kindle, but, what do you want for free? This book has many entertaining passages and words that I’d like to remember, and being my first reading of Doyle, I don’t think it will be my last.

I found that I got used to the language and the action does pick up and leads to an exciting ending.

Sorry, I dropped a key word in my last post! It should say, “being my first work of Doyle’s it WON’T be my last.” I’m quite enjoying his writing! I like that he takes a reader deeply into the scene by an in depth description of it. He describes nature from flora to fauna and you hear the sounds of nature along with the character allowing you to be part of the story instead of being far removed from it. Very gripping narrative!

Rita, believe it or not I haven’t unless it was as a kid and I’ve forgotten, but I’ve seen so many movies and shows that I wasn’t driven to read the originals for some reason, though looking through my books I see I have read books that were based on Sherlock Holmes or female versions thereof, but none by the original author. I shall now though!

Our heroes are now in the middle of France (French France, at that) with the destruction from the chevauchées (a word I learned at school: it was in one of the set books for French A-Level, and I remember it, 55 years later!).

I am impressed that no translations are given for the frequent passages in French, or in Latin. I don't think authors can get away with that nowadays, or with the use of archaic or dialect words not immediately recognisable by the reader.

Edward, Prince of Wales, a.k.a. the Black Prince, who figures prominently in this book, was of course a real-life historical figure (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_... ). Doyle's depiction of the historical and political situation in France in 1366-67 is scrupulously accurate; and Edward really did make an expedition into Spain to restore Peter to the throne of Castile, as depicted here. (The latter had been replaced by his out-of-wedlock brother Henry; Edward considered that an intolerable violation of the "rights" of "legitimate" royalty.)

I am trying to figure out this sentence:” his arms were an allurion in chief above a fess azure.” What does “allurion” mean?

All I know is that it is heraldic language and therefore very obscure.

Googling brought me to this site - which is brilliant. It gives allurion as an alternative to allerions: alerion eagle less beak & talon, or from the Glossary of Terms used in Heraldry, "resembling eaglets displayed, but without beak or feet, and the points of the wings downward"

Thanks, Rosina!

Thank you, Rosina! What a great source!

So here’s an update on my search for a hard copy of this. I go to my local library, and the girl pulls it up on the computer. No luck. Only in e-book form. She tries another search just to be sure. Then she says they don’t have it. In fact, most of their Sir Arthur Conan Doyle is only in e-book form.

What?! I nod my head and leave. I guess I’m going to be late for this months read. I’m going to have to find it somewhere else.

E.L., your local library should (and almost undoubtedly does, though the lady failed to tell you about it) offer interlibrary loan services, by which they can borrow books for you from other libraries, usually at no cost to you; the libraries take care of the mailings, and you pick up and return the book at your local library. (I'm a librarian myself, so I know about this kind of thing.) Nowadays, most libraries are part of the worldwide OCLC consortium, and do interlibrary loan through that venue. Lots of hard copy editions of this book are available! My advice is, go back to the library and ask about this at the reference desk. (And if a clerk tries to put you off and says he/she doesn't know anything about that, ask to speak to an actual librarian, who does.)

Doyle's detailed description of a medieval joust is one of the most exciting parts of the book so far (I'm into Chapter 26). Jousting is actually still practiced today, as demonstrated in this YouTube video link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhcHN... . The rules for the type of jousting dealt with there are quite similar to those used in the Middle Ages, with top points awarded for unhorsing an opponent; some modern jousting competitions, like the one at Australia's annual Abbey Medieval Festival, use modified rules in which they don't actually try to unseat their opponents. (I've attended the latter competition two days in a row back in 2017; unlike many guys, I'm not big on spectator sports --I can usually get into actually playing a sport more than passively watching others play-- but I really enjoy watching a joust!)

I really enjoy the character of Sir Nigel, who is always looking for a challenge with just about every knight he encounters.

Thanks Werner. I completely forgot about that. I love a good joust. Still looking forward to reading this. :)

E.L. wrote: "Thanks Werner. I completely forgot about that. I love a good joust. Still looking forward to reading this. :)"

Glad I could help, E.L.! (And always glad to meet another jousting fan.) :-)

No problem, Rita --it would be a dull world if we all liked the same things, and life's too short to spend time reading a book you dislike!

I understand how you feel, Rita. I recently stopped reading a book with another group that everyone else really liked, but it wasn't for me.

Bertrand du Guesclin, who plays a very prominent role in this novel, was also an actual historical figure; for more detail on his life, check out this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertran... . He also was really married to a lady named Tiphane Ragunel; she was apparently his first wife, although Internet information on her in English is very scanty (the article on her in Wikipedia is in French) and sometimes contradictory. (Her date of death ranges from 1371 to 1379.) I don't know if her contemporaries thought of her as having the Sight, or if that's just an invention of Doyle's based on her Celtic Breton roots.