Reading Envy Readers discussion

Here is the place to discuss Books 1-6.

I’ll start. First of all, I made it only halfway through book 1 before sinking into a deep sleep and I took a two hour nap! I’m certain this bodes well. I think it is the long form poetic feel to the pages.

Still just in book 1, Telemachus is such a jerk to his mother. But at least he seemed to get the ball rolling for Odysseus, I also found myself wondering, if the gods can masquerade as any old human, how do you ever know you are talking to who you think you are talking to?

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Telemachus is such a jerk to his mother. But at least he seemed to get the ball rolling for Odysseus, I also found myself wondering, if the gods can masquerade as any old human, how do you ever know you are talking to who you think you are talking to?" I wondered about the gods in this way, too. Eurymachus riddled Telemachus about his guest (Athena) and referred to her as "he" over and over. She must've appeared as a man?

I'm also skipping the 3+ hour long introduction but I did listen to the 26 minute long Translator's Note and found it to be particularly interesting. Did anyone else listen to this? Emily Watson basically gives us her credentials and background, and explains why her translation is different than ones that came before hers, and even why she chose certain words and descriptions. Fascinating. The book I'm following along in was translated by Robert Fagles and I don't remember what translation I read in high school (wayyyy back in the 1980s).

Jeff wrote: "Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Telemachus is such a jerk to his mother. But at least he seemed to get the ball rolling for Odysseus, I also found myself wondering, if the gods can masquerade as any o..."

She says she is Mentes, an old family friend, so I assumed she was passing as him too.

I didn't read the translation note but I've listened to a few interviews with her, a good one is the guys on the Overdue Podcast after they read the book only with their Patreons (so I only heard one of those episodes I guess.)

I, too, only got halfway through Book 1 before passing out last night! This is reminding me why I hated required reading in high school: not because I don't enjoy the literature itself, but because the archaic language makes me feel a bit dumb at times.

But I'm pushing through and taking my time, and it seems like I'm getting used to the prose the more I read. I plan on reading a short analysis/summary after each book to make sure I'm following correctly.

Side note: I'm not sure if this is the same in everyone's translation, but what is it with referring to every character with the same adjectives EVERY time they speak (discreet Telemachus, clear-eyed Athena)!? It's been a while since my mythology 101 course, so I haven't read anything like this in years, and I can't help but laugh at the repetition. It almost reads like bad writing these days.

Tel definitely was a jerk to his mom, who was just mourning the mystery of her husband's fate. I don't think that's what Athena had in mind when she essentially suggested that he man up, haha.

Cristina wrote: "I, too, only got halfway through Book 1 before passing out last night! This is reminding me why I hated required reading in high school: not because I don't enjoy the literature itself, but because..."

I noticed adjectives too, also as adverbs, like Moody Telemachus did something moodily in another section. Ha.

Stephen King would hate this! hahaha

I think the use of the same adjectives with character's names, 'discreet Telemachus', 'clear-eyed Athena' is because The Odyssey was originally an oral story and using the same adjectives helped the teller and the listeners remember the story and its themes. I think it was a convention of the time. So listening to the book is a more authentic experience - now I wish I was doing that!

Side note: Our president does the same thing with the names of his enemies. I bet this is where he got the idea, wink wink. Sorry for inserting politics, but this was too much to resist.

Just noticed that the Goodreads group "The Mooksie and the Gripes" has a thread about Homer that has been very active:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Nadine, you give his reading level too much credit!

Nadine wrote: "Just noticed that the Goodreads group "The Mooksie and the Gripes" has a thread about Homer that has been very active:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/..."

I have found that several groups/podcasts chose this as a group read, which makes sense since it can be difficult to get through on ones own. I don't belong to the M&G group myself.

Cristina wrote: "Stephen King would hate this! hahaha"

I also learned about not using adverbs this way from King, ha.

I went ahead and listened to the introduction today. I'm going to listen to translator's note and start in on book 1 tomorrow.

The introduction specifically talked about the the repetitiveness as a common aspect of oral storytelling. Using these kinds of phrases helps the speaker remember and tell the story each time.

Daisey wrote: "I went ahead and listened to the introduction today. I'm going to listen to translator's note and start in on book 1 tomorrow.

The introduction specifically talked about the the repetitiveness as..."

Maybe I shouldn't have been so hasty in my moving the introduction to the end.

Makes sense re: the repetition!

Also, in Book II, the line "Go home, old man" made me laugh out loud.

I listened to book 1 whilst cooking dinner and it actually went quite well. I haven’t read anything like this since school and I thought listening would make it easier as I don’t really read poetry.

I have just finished Book 6 and, much to my surprise, am absolutely engrossed! I really thought this was going to be hard work. I too am reading the précis of each book after I’m finished and the notes. I’ve been reading the Emily Wilson translation on Kindle and am so glad as it means I can take it slowly and look up names I don’t understand the reference to. Tried listening on audio but found it moved too quickly for me and I got confused, so Kindle it is.

I finished Book 6 last night and I'm really enjoying the story so far. I read this in high school and realize I remember very little of it. Some observations:

- I'm listening to the Emily Wilson translation in Audible and I'm really enjoying Claire Danes' narration. I followed along in my paper book translated by Robert Fagles but found it to be distracting since the translations are SO different. I'm really surprised by this, the meter isn't even the same and surprisingly few of the words line up. I get the same basic story with both but it's hard to compare the two. The Wilson translation seems much more simplified than the Fagles translation. I wonder what the original text read like now.

- The fact that the gods are all-powerful and can dictate what happens to the characters drives me nuts. The most recent example I read was when Poseidon is mad at Odysseus so he trashes his raft and plunges him in to the raging see but Athena saves him. It seems like the humans are just the gods' puppets and are more subject to the wills of the gods than their own. Maybe I'm wrong.

- The Greeks oiled everything! Should we be oiling more? Should I oil my feet before I put my sandals on? (In four months when summer arrives in Minnesota for a few weeks).

Jeff wrote: "Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Telemachus is such a jerk to his mother. But at least he seemed to get the ball rolling for Odysseus, I also found myself wondering, if the gods can masquerade as any o..."

Starting today and appreciate the tip - will listen to the translators note but skip the introduction.

Started yesterday and read up to Book 5. Loved the writing and the story. I have never read The Odyssey but recently read Madeline Miller's Circe and Song of Achilles and those stories helped with the knowing the characters.

I just started a few days ago and am already halfway through book3. I’m really enjoying the Emily Wilson translation. I’m also surprised by how engrossing the story is even though not a ton has really happened yet. Although I’m reading and not listening I can easily imagine listening to the story. I’ve also been struck by a few parts that read like the script of a play.

There’s so much drama so far!

I also noticed the total dependence on the gods and the feeling that the gods were in control of everything. I imagine that back in Homer’s time when there were even more mysteries about the world than now, that life could often feel like you were just a puppet of some larger force.

Jeff wrote: "The Greeks oiled everything! Should we be oiling more? Should I oil my feet before I put my sandals on? (In four months when summer arrives in Minnesota for a few weeks). "

I noticed this too! Or more accurately, the women oil the men between bathing and clothing them. Not even just slave women, at one point Nestor's oldest daughter bathes and oils Telemachus.

I may need to rethink the use of my pantry items.

I still have books 5-6 to go but I found myself wanting to mark up my book in a way I used to mark up biblical texts, so I brought home some highlighters... I want to keep better track of not necessarily details on each new character but are they gods? humans? monsters? part of more than one? How else will I know where the power lies? I was shocked when Nestor's wife was Eurydice, but she isn't *that* Eurydice, of Eurydice & Orpheus/Hades.... I had that one in mind because of Hadestown of course. But I have this idea I'm going to try, maybe by going back to the first chapter.

I posed a question in Instagram about how old Telemachus is, and how long Odysseus has been gone. I know in book 4 we are told Telemachus was a newborn when Odysseus left, but I feel like with Telemachus's lack of training etc he must be pretty young? But old enough to command the presence of kings and goddesses? Or is that just his genes....

We will dig into books 7-12 starting Sunday so I have some reading to do...

I got through Book 6 very quickly so I decided to start on the Introduction. I listened until I heard a spoiler and then bookmarked it. I'll take it bit by bit. I found it to be very helpful understanding some of the nuances of the text, some examples being why the sunrise / morning is described the exact same way over and over and why ships are always black.

Some of the questions I had written down were answered in the Introduction as well, and some of the customs of that time were explained. I got a lot out of it. I just wish there weren't spoilers.

Finally, it was neat hearing Homer talk about astronomy as I was walking my dogs predawn. I could see two of the constellations he was talking about: the Plow (the Big Dipper), and Bootes (the plow man); and, of course, the unmoving North Star. Thanks for throwing me some science, Homer.

Jeff wrote: "Finally, it was neat hearing Homer talk about astronomy as I was walking my dogs predawn..."

Yowsa! Predawn in cold winter country! Between the two of us, I know which one will survive the apocalypse ;)

Now back to Homer. I love the several variations on the lovely phrase, 'rosy-fingered dawn'. Makes me want to get up earlier, but I'm still not walking my dogs in it.

Here's a question. I'm not sure if it's like this across all translations, but in mine, they occasionally refer to God as a singular proper noun. Are they referring to Zeus when they say this?

I don’t think the Wilson translation has the singular God. Lots of people are godlike though.

Two things I noticed from book 4 - I definitely would not like to eat a feast and drink a bunch of wine then jump on a fast carriage. 🤢 Also, kind of love that book 4 ends on a cliffhanger. It’s like a good tv show.

One thing I’m enjoying about reading this is noticing how many of the ways we still tell stories can be seen in The Odyssey. I really feel a connection with people and audiences of the past.

I finished this week's reading this morning. I hadn't quite absorbed that there were some notes in the back until today, even though Fiona mentioned it above. There are a few translation notes and context notes there that I found helpful, especially explaining why one extended metaphor seemed labored over (it has to do with the words in the Greek sounding similar to Calypso, clever clever Homer.)

I laughed over some of the story in the 6th book, like Odysseus covering up his manhood and how after bathing Athena made him look Even More Attractive.

I'm enjoying all of this and all of the discussion so far and will shortly set up a thread for week 2.

Laurie wrote: "One thing I’m enjoying about reading this is noticing how many of the ways we still tell stories can be seen in The Odyssey. I really feel a connection with people and audiences of the past."

Yes, I'm surprised that it is so cinematic! Adapting it into a film script would not be a big literary jump!

I liked the bit with Odysseus in the sea, the description of the sea was really good and there seemed to be a bit of humour in him thinking he’s going to die every two minutes.

Shatterlings wrote: "I liked the bit with Odysseus in the sea, the description of the sea was really good and there seemed to be a bit of humour in him thinking he’s going to die every two minutes."
Or the god who didn’t get the memo, and decides to make havoc regardless? Heh.

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "I finished this week's reading this morning. I hadn't quite absorbed that there were some notes in the back until today, even though Fiona mentioned it above. There are a few translation notes and ..."

I was surprised at the humor and some sarcastic dialogue. Really enjoying this read!

I'm going to put on my wannabe nerd hat here. I'm enjoying how readable this translation is, though after having been exposed to Fagels' work a bit ago I still may prefer his. But I can appreciate Wilson's painstaking work all the same! When I listened to some lectures on The Odyssey 2 years ago, one thing the professor pointed out was the immense importance of being a gracious host (Xenia) and how much that plays a role in the events.

Arg, I'm way behind now :( the past few days have been nuts with little to no reading time, so I am currently about halfway through what I should have finished in week 1. Hoping I can catch up somewhat quickly!

I’m also behind because I decided to start with the introduction which I found very helpful in orienting me to the text. Yes, it has spoilers but since I knew the story from my previous readings I was ok with them. Also, was reading the Fitzgerald translation from my freshman year Western Lit side by side but it is so markedly different than the Wilson I might stop and just use it for the pictures. Currently I’m in Book 3 and found myself longing for an Athena!

Nicole wrote: "I'm going to put on my wannabe nerd hat here. I'm enjoying how readable this translation is, though after having been exposed to Fagels' work a bit ago I still may prefer his. But I can appreciate ..."

I have continued to be amazed by how much can be expected from a host. Food, shelter, oiling, and then supplies for one's journey! No wonder then that Telemachus is concerned about his own livelihood.

Cristina wrote: "Arg, I'm way behind now :( the past few days have been nuts with little to no reading time, so I am currently about halfway through what I should have finished in week 1. Hoping I can catch up some..."

I hope you find your rhythm but don't worry, I built in a catch up week before we have our full discussion.

Amy wrote: "I’m also behind because I decided to start with the introduction which I found very helpful in orienting me to the text. Yes, it has spoilers but since I knew the story from my previous readings I ..."

Do you want an Athena to help you out of difficulties or for another reason?

Hi guys I joined late but just got to book six I’m reading the Fagles translation and boy is it smooth. I vaguely remember reading another translation in high school and struggling. Seems proof that 1 I’ve matured as a reader and 2 translation is an art. I do wonder what license he took to make it so friendly to the modern reader...

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "I have continued to be amazed by how much can be expected from a host. Food, shelter, oiling, and then supplies for one's journey! No wonder then that Telemachus is concerned about his own livelihood."
Yes!!! I found it overwhelming during my first read a few years ago and am struck by it again!