Children's Books discussion

During January we have 3 books from which to choose. Depending on the availability to you of each, and your interest in each, and your time and energy, come and share your thoughts about any or all of the following 1935 honor books:

Pecos Bill: The Greatest Cowboy of All Time by James Cloyd Bowman
Bright Island by Mabel Louise Robinson
On the Banks of Plum Creek by Laura Ingalls Wilder

Yes, that last one is part of the Little House on the Prairie series. I look forward to rereading it!
I also have a beloved copy of Pecos Bill and Lightning by Leigh Peck, published in 1940, that I hope to be able to compare to Bowman's. Should be a good month, a good set of books to start the new year -- see you then!

First thing I note is that Bowman's Pecos Bill is much fatter than Peck's. I recognize right off that I've never read it before.

Ok, it was long, but still a fairly quick read. Definitely a boys' book, with fistfights, practical jokes, braggadocio, etc. Poor Slue-foot Sue gets put in her place but good. Also glorifies the process of clearing the plains for Indians and buffalo to make way for cattle.

But it's an engaging story, readable and accessible even to modern children. If I were a parent I'd read it with my child and use the controversial bits as teachable moments. There are good bits about courage, honor and egalitarianism, etc., too. And the pictures are marvelous - so alive, expressive, and joyful.

What struck me most significantly is that this version of Pecos Bill's story is a narration, told almost straight. Sure, most of the tall-tale episodes are here, but they're not told in the familiar style that I associate w/ other tall-tale tellings. There's too much detail of sequence, too much depth of character - tall tales that I'm more familiar with are concise listings of anecdotes, with an emphasis on the humor of the exaggeration. Despite the claim in the intro. re' "broad humor," I didn't find this all that funny.

And now I'm going to read my childhood favorite, Pecos Bill and Lightning

I've just started my reread of On the Banks of Plum Creek and am delighted that Bright Island is actually available from my local public library. Pecos Bill is not available from the library, but I was not really expecting it to be (although it would have been interesting to compare it with, say, the Little House series).

Cheryl wrote: "Ok, it was long, but still a fairly quick read. Definitely a boys' book, with fistfights, practical jokes, braggadocio, etc. Poor Slue-foot Sue gets put in her place but good. Also glorifies the..."

I think a lot of individuals who have issues with some of the more dated and problematic aspects of some of the older Newbery books (and older, dated children's literature in general) often fail to appreciate that these books are of their time, and would thus be, good for parent/child discussions (or using these books as teachables in the classroom).

Well, yes. But Bowman is a professor, and should know better than to say "the Indians' fire water" - for example. Especially by 1937. I do agree that using them to teach cultural history would be ideal, though, if parent or teacher can make time to do so.

I think, in this case, if one wants to give a child a Pecos Bill story and doesn't have time or energy to interact with Bowman's book, it would be ok to offer Peck's. Here's my brief review of Pecos Bill and Lightning, published just three years later:

This does hit the highlights. It doesn't have any troublesome racist or related issues, though. And good ole Paul Bunyan has a larger role in this. Lightfoot Sue (as she's known here) gets stuck in the moon, instead of being tamed to timidity.

The Ingalls family would have been known to Bowman's cowboys as Nesters or Hoe-men. The cowboys despised them for putting up fences and making the prairie 'crowded.' The story of the last roundup was interesting, actually. Bill had to cut fences, and pay the homesteaders for their cattle,* in order to get his huge herd to market.

*The homesteaders' cattle would run away with the range animals and the cowboys couldn't sort them out of the herd.

Ok I (re)read On the Banks of Plum Creek last night. Hmm.

It starts out problematic. "Norwegians are clean people."

"In Wisconsin we lived among Swedes and Germans. In Indian Territory we lived among the Indians. Now here in Minnesota all the neighbors are Norwegian. They're good neighbors too. But I guess our kinds of folk are pretty scarce."

And this idea of taming the prairie without knowing anything about it - and nobody would tell them that Grasshopper Weather meant that (view spoiler)[planting a crop would be a waste of energy & time (hide spoiler)].

And Caroline changed the name of the milch cow from Wreath of Roses (for her markings) to Spot. In all the books, iirc, she comes across as awfully conservative. She strongly discourages Laura's imagination, in at least one of the others.

However, she does allow the girls some freedom. Laura is growing up strong & fearless, so that's good.

I did appreciate, both now and when I was a child, the family's courage and persistence. Even if it was misguided.

And I appreciate the wealth of detail. I'd forgotten just how much there was - a reader really gets to know what the prairie is like, what living in a dugout on the banks of a creek, and then building a house, and huddling in it from grasshoppers and from blizzards, is like.

I think that attention of detail, as well as the character & citizenship lessons, was what earned this the Newbery Honor.

Cheryl wrote: "Ok I (re)read On the Banks of Plum Creek last night. Hmm.

It starts out problematic. "Norwegians are clean people."

"In Wisconsin we lived among Swedes and Germans. In Indian Te..."

I never liked Ma Ingalls as she is portrayed in the books, especially the first couple of books. And what I find most annoying, I guess, is the fact that ones own kind of people automatically means individuals of British and perhaps Scottish extraction, everyone else, including Native Americans, are seen as exotic at best.

And yeah, the idea that the English language is somehow assumed to be superior to Norwegian and other languages, does grate (on the other hand, the book also and truthfully demonstrates how if people stay in their own enclaves, they sometimes do not ever learn the common language).

Thank goodness this all went over my head when I was a kid. As a parent now, though, I'd not assume that my child is immune, but rather, as we've both said before, use the issue as a teachable moment.

Cheryl wrote: "Thank goodness this all went over my head when I was a kid. As a parent now, though, I'd not assume that my child is immune, but rather, as we've both said before, use the issue as a teachable mom..."

That's what I would do as well, if I had children. I actually never read the series as a child. I did watch at least some of the TV series and when I finally read the series as an adult, I was surprised at how very different the characterisation of especially Ma Ingalls was (how supportive and accepting of differences and especially ethnic differences, something the Ma Ingalls of the books was not).

Right. Pa is different, too. In this book, at least, he has to be very stern & firm. He makes it clear he loves all his girls, and when he has a chance to show affection he does, but mainly his concerns are to keep everybody safe, and fed & warm.

But his restless nature needs Ma's tempering influence. If Pa were in charge the girls would move even more often, have even fewer neighbors, and never go to school. So I'll give her credit for that.

Iirc, the tv show didn't address his wanderlust, and made him seem downright sociable....

Cheryl wrote: "Right. Pa is different, too. In this book, at least, he has to be very stern & firm. He makes it clear he loves all his girls, and when he has a chance to show affection he does, but mainly his ..."

And Laura herself was like Pa with regard to her wanderlust. I can understand that to an extent, but if one has a family, it does not really work all that well.

Agreed.

Well, I hope Bright Island comes in for me soon... and that it's worth the wait!

Cheryl wrote: "Agreed.

Well, I hope Bright Island comes in for me soon... and that it's worth the wait!"

I just picked up my copy from the library. It sounds like the kind of book I usually like, so I hope I won't be disappointed.

I own a copy of Bright Island that's been sitting unread on my shelves for a couple years. I pulled it out last night, and read the first chapter aloud to my 11 year-old son. He says he wants to continue with it, so I'm glad to be reading it with the group, but it will probably take me a while to get through it.

One chapter in, the tone is rather different than I expected. I imagined a light-hearted holiday story about a group of children having fun sailing, perhaps with an element of mystery and treasure hunting -- what else are islands for? So far, the tone is a bit more grim than I anticipated. Thankful, the main character, and the only one who sails so far, is a rather solitary misanthrope, her parents don't quite understand her, and she despises her grown brothers' wives. Frequent mention is made of the family grave plot on the island, where Thankful has two brothers buried, and a "big new mound" is her beloved grandfather. It looks likely that she will be sent away from her island home so that she can live with her brothers on the mainland and go to a proper school. The writing style hasn't really grabbed me -- I find it oddly disjointed, but I'm curious to see how the story will develop.

Emily wrote: "I own a copy of Bright Island that's been sitting unread on my shelves for a couple years. I pulled it out last night, and read the first chapter aloud to my 11 year-old son. He says he wants to ..."

I was hoping to really enjoy this book (just got my copy from the library), but if the writing style feels disjointed, I probably won't all that much (I tend to often have issues with disjointed and distracting writing styles).

Well, I hope you'll give it a try, regardless. Disjointed may not be the right word, anyway. I'll try to post an example of what I mean, later, if I can find one.

Well, I've been skimming the first chapter again, and it's hard to put my finger on what bothers me about the style. Here's one little line that just didn't flow well when I read it aloud:

"Thankful looked fragile but no one knew better then Ethel, who had once tried to discipline her, how false an impression she gave."

I had to pause a moment when I came to the "she" to figure out it if it meant Thankful or Ethel. Maybe awkward, rather than disjointed, is the word I mean. Anyway, it's not all like that, and I do want to keep reading!

Thank you for your input, Emily! It does seem like an intriguing book, anyway, and I do hope I get it soon. I definitely hope you and your son like it all the way through.

And how wonderful you're still reading to him, even though he's not a little kid anymore!

I've not re-read it, but as a kid I probably read it 50 times. On the Banks of Plum Creek was one of my favorite Little House books because they lived in that dugout! I was completely fascinated by prairie life and often "acted it out" at home and school. I wanted to be Laura. Throughout the books, Ma was always a bit uptight and judgmental. Hard to believe she survived living in a dugout. I always felt Laura Ingalls' great skill as a writer was to make me as a reader feel like I was there with her.

I bet Ma was uptight and judgmental precisely because she had to live in a dugout, and other places almost as inconvenient!

Like you, Michele, I haven't reread Plum Creek recently, but feel I remember it quite well from childhood. I think it was one of my favorite Little House books too, and it was the first one in which we see the girls interacting with people outside the family on a regular basis. The part where Laura tricks Nelly into wading in the pool where there are leeches was greatly satisfying. Looking at it as an adult though, how tough those years must have been for Ma and Pa. The grasshoppers, their beautiful new house burnt down...

Good points. Didn't we all hate Nellie? Now I feel sorry for her, though, with such a weak father and indulgent mother.

But gee, Ma *irons* - is that really necessary?

And I'm still trying to remember in which book Ma discouraged Laura's imagination, and just how she phrased the scolding. I might have to reread some more of the series. Do any of you remember being sad for Laura that Ma didn't like her to make up stories, or whatever it was?

One thing to remember about Ma's uptightness and her problematic attitude towards Native Americans (and how girls should be acting) is that while we consider this problematic and bigoted today, in the 19th century, her attitude would have been considered normal (in fact, if she had had a non problematic attitude, an accepting attitude towards Native Americans, and had been less strict with Laura regarding her tomboyishness, it would have been considered not only different, but unacceptable, or at least, abnormal).

I agree with Gundula regarding the attitudes of the characters. It's definitely historical fiction, and historical fiction includes the beliefs and values (good or bad) of the characters in the story. When my kids were younger, we just talk about how they were different or the same as us.

Cheryl, I remember more clearly Laura and Mary playing in the woods in the first book and how Mary didn't want to get dirty and Laura wanted to have adventures. I don't really remember feeling sorry for Laura exactly. I would braid my hair like her and feel that energy Laura always seemed to have simmering under her skin.

Michele wrote: "I agree with Gundula regarding the attitudes of the characters. It's definitely historical fiction, and historical fiction includes the beliefs and values (good or bad) of the characters in the st..."

I think it is much better and more historically accurate to feature historical fiction like it was (and not like one wishes it could have been). That does not mean I have to agree with the philosophies and behaviours portrayed, but personally, I have more issues with anachronisms than the so-called ugly truth. One of my worst reading experiences was perusing the modern adaptation of Hitty, Her First Hundred Years, Rachel Field's Hitty: Her First Hundred Years (by Rosemary Wells). The fact that in the adaptation, the first owner of Hitty actually had Native American friends really rubs me the wrong way, as this would most likely not have been the case and thus anachronistic (not to mention that it paints a misleading historical picture).

However, while I generally both desire and appreciate historical fiction (both recent and not so recent) that is historically accurate, that does not mean I will simply accept problematic attitudes either. In the Little House books, I have always found it hard to combine and reconcile Caroline Ingalls' described religiosity and supposed gentleness with her rather uptight, unbending and judgmental character, with her very rigid and Anglo-centric world view.

Similarly, while I can appreciate the illustrations and the details in Robert Lawson's They Were Strong and Good, I chafe at his description of Native Americans and the fact that he has absolutely no idea that his descriptions are problematic, or could be thus. And while I do appreciate the fact that his uncritical respect of his ancestors is most probably of his time, it does bother me a bit.

Michele wrote: "I agree with Gundula regarding the attitudes of the characters. It's definitely historical fiction, and historical fiction includes the beliefs and values (good or bad) of the characters in the st..."

I've always wondered at bit if some of the descriptions of Mary Ingalls as a young girl might have been some (inadvertent) sibling rivalry on Laura's part. Especially in the earlier books (until Mary turns blind), Mary is often depicted not only as a "good"girl but as a "goody-two-shoes" who is always ready and willing to tattle tale.

Cheryl wrote: "Well, yes. But Bowman is a professor, and should know better than to say "the Indians' fire water" - for example. Especially by 1937. I do agree that using them to teach cultural history would b..."

Just because Bowman was a professor, one should not imagine that he could not have been bigoted and unenlightened. I have read enough dated and bigoted articles, analyses, books and dissertations from university professors (many from the 19th to the mid 20th centuries, but also more recent ones) to be able to say this without prejudice.

Lots of good points in all the posts above. More than I can respond to - but thank you all!

Reading On the Banks of Plum Creek took me back to my younger years. I've always loved Little House in the Big Woods and have a first edition copy of it. (It's really my sister's book but I "took" it because I really like it a lot!) I guess Plum Creek is where Nellie Oleson turns up and gives Laura and Mary a run for their money. Nellie is a good character and gives children a way to see how others might lack the morally=correct behavior that they have been taught. Laura, especially, is the more clever one who gives Nellie a little bit of her own medicine. It's funny how neither Ma or Pa respond much to Nellie's comments or actions. I think most parents would have had something to say about Nellie's bragging or rudeness. As has been noted in some of the other comments, Pa is the boss here and Ma follows his lead. The only time I remember Ma standing her ground is when Pa wanted to move further West and Ma firmly said no since there would be then be no more formal education for the girls. When I read some of the books in this series to my classrooms, we always discussed the hard work required for people settling in a new place. What gave me more to think about this time was how devastating their lives must have been when the grasshoppers ate the whole wheat crop. There was no dramatic scenes here - Pa just went where the work was and Ma and the girls survived the best they could. This was a completely different time and one that seems almost too fictional because of each crisis that had to be solved. How many of us today would make it through catastrophes such as these? I guess we have other types of worries in our own times! Wilder's books still provide readers with a great look at the early development of our country. Hopefully all children will learn to love her books like I have.

Yes, in a way it almost seemed like Ma condoned Nellie's behavior. But I was never confused, when I read these as a child; I knew that Ma somehow made it clear to her girls that Nellie's behavior was unacceptable for her own girls.

It is a charming book. I particularly liked the illustrations. I also appreciated the complexity & unpredictability of the adult characters. Robert, Selina, even Dave and Orin were more superficial... but the Curtis adults kept surprising me.

There were a few occasions of awkward syntax, and a few times I sort of lost track of where, in her personal journey of growth, Thankful was, but not enough to consider flaws. I think this is the best book of the year, including over the winner, The White Stag. As you say, Amy, it promotes healthy American values, and teaches us about life on an island in Maine (and in a boarding school, for that matter).

I wonder why it's not so well known? Is it because it's actually YA, given that Thankful is, what, 17?, and trying to graduate from secondary school & plan for her adulthood? Most Newberys we've read seem to be written for 'tweens....

Btw, among all the oodles of related books avl to fans of the Little House series, this is the one I currently find most intriguing: The Wilder Life: My Adventures in the Lost World of Little House on the Prairie by Wendy McClure

Cheryl wrote: "Btw, among all the oodles of related books avl to fans of the Little House series, this is the one I currently find most intriguing: [book:The Wilder Life: My Adventures in the Lost World of Littl..."

I started reading this but I never managed to finish it (I should probably request it from the library again). It was an alright book to a point, but I found the attitude of the author kind of presumptive and arrogant at times. I seem to remember that she had some definite issues with certain types of Little House on the Prairie fans and was certainly not above poking some rather (I think) nasty fun at them. I will be interested in what your own take of this book is.

Hmm... that sounds discouraging... still, I'm intrigued.

Edit: checked my library, and it's no longer listed. I'm guessing it was stolen by a patron and marked off as lost. Well, I won't buy it.

Cheryl wrote: "Hmm... that sounds discouraging... still, I'm intrigued."

You should still read the book, as many others seem to have really enjoyed it.

I finished Bright Island today (note: this comment will have some slight spoilers). I read the early chapters aloud to my son, but after we finished the first section he decided it was boring, and I read the rest to myself. Indeed, it's not really at all what one would expect a typical 11 year-old boy to enjoy -- like I said above, I was expecting a kind of jolly lightly adventurous sailing story, but got more of a young adult, somewhat brooding in tone book that could definitely be slotted as being "for girls." Of course, if I'd bothered to read the back of my paperback edition I would have picked up on that sooner...

Unless I missed it, we are never specifically told Thankful's age, and I had visualized her as being around 12, so it was quite startling when Dave started talking about marriage, and I had to rapidly age her in my mind a good five years or so. I was pleasantly surprised that it turned out to be partially a school story -- I generally tend to enjoy those, and if I'd known that, I probably would have read it much sooner! I greatly enjoyed reading about the evolution of Thankful's friendship with Selina, and Robert's perfidity was also well done, although of course it was clear all along he was a bad egg. I liked Thankful's friendship with Orin, until it became clear that he was in love with her. Yes, I know times and mores change, and we hold teachers to different standards now in their relationships with their students then was the case 80 years ago, but sheesh, couldn't he at least have waited until she graduated? I had been thinking that Thankful's crush on him would be dispelled because of a casual mention of a fiance or something like that. Oh well. I do still think the book has many awkward sentences, but reading to myself, it was easier to skim past the infelicitous passages than it was when reading aloud, when they often brought me up short. I also thought the last few pages were rather too rhapsodic in tone. Overall though, quite an enjoyable reading experience.

"infelicitous passages" - well put... it did have a few of those, indeed...

I agree, I had to revise my estimate of age upwards, too. I did so when she first tried on Robbie's heirloom Scottish suit... but who was Robbie? I never did figure that out for sure, did you catch an introduction to him?

No, I didn't catch any explanation of who Robbie was either! I felt that most likely he was a long-dead brother of Mary Curtis', but it was odd choice on the author's part to leave that vague.

And Cheryl, interesting comment about the Curtis adults, being more complex and surprising characters than most of the young folk. A good example is how Mary Curtis, despite seeing through Robert's charming manners, still is so kind and takes him to her heart. Would she have done so if he hadn't been named Robert I wonder?

Probably one of those deceased brothers was called Robbie, but I think the original is someone from back in Scotland because of the full set of authentic highland regalia -- if one brother had a kilt, why not all them?

Somehow, I don't think Jonathan Curtis is actually that open-minded when he talks about "what a girl is for." I don't think he had the haying in mind -- there was simply no other choice but for Thankful to help.

Or, maybe Jonathan thinks 'a girl is for' *everything!* "A man's work is from sun to sun, a woman's work is never done."

The Ingalls lived like this, too. Ma was first up, at least in some of the books (not sure about Plum Creek). Pa got to walk, or even ride, to town and take a break from mundane chores.

True, we really don't know what Jonathan actually means, and our differing impressions are equally valid.

I've also been thinking about the fact that Caddie Woodlawn is an *older* book than On the Banks of Plum Creek. My thoughts have not come to coherency yet, except that Banks' book *feels* newer, fresher.

Thoughts?

Hi, all. I've been away for a long time, mostly because of the difficulty I had finding some of the Newberry books. However, I was delighted to see all three of this month's books at my local library. I read Pecos Bill, The Greatest Cowboy of All Time by James Cloyd Bowman first.

I remember, many a year ago, reading about Pecos Bill riding a cyclone like it was a bronco. The story was featured in a section about Tall Tales in our school reading text book. I loved the story back then, and I enjoyed it again now along with all the other "tall tales" in this book. Perhaps I love these stories given the knack my grandfather had for telling his own stories about his father in the old days (late 1800's) on the plains of Nebraska. Whatever the reason, I've always loved the old Paul Bunyan and Pecos Bill stories, and really enjoyed taking a look at Bill all over again.

Cheryl wrote: "I've also been thinking about the fact that Caddie Woodlawn is an *older* book than On the Banks of Plum Creek. My thoughts have not come to coherency yet, except that..."

I kind of got stalled on Caddie Woodlawn, but from what I remember reading, I found the way Caddie was originally encouraged to be a tomboy and then to have it all taken away rather abruptly to be a bit hard to stomach. And Caddie's father's speech about the responsibilities of women really did rub me the wrong way, since he was the individual who at first most supported Caddie being allowed to roam and be a tomboy (Oh I know it was supposedly for Caddie's health, but like a few older German children's classics about tomboys, it was/is often the father who encourages his daughter's tomboyish ways and then, once she has grown to love this freedom and expect this freedom, the father, or the parents, basically reign her in, dress her as a fashion icon and pack her off to strict boarding schools so she can learn how to be a bourgeois housewife and society host).

Also, I wonder whether the fact that Caddie's father supposedly had Native American friends was not a bit anachronistic, considering the general attitudes towards Native Americans at the time (and in some ways, Caddie's father's friendship with the Native Americans, while it might seem as positive on the surface, when one digs down, it feels paternalistic and exoticising, certainly not a case of settlers and Native Americans being regarded as and approached as equals).

Just finished On the Banks of Plum Creek.

Tricia wrote: "What gave me more to think about this time was how devastating their lives must have been when the grasshoppers ate the whole wheat crop. There was no dramatic scenes here - Pa just went where the work was and Ma and the girls survived the best they could. This was a completely different time and one that seems almost too fictional because of each crisis that had to be solved. How many of us today would make it through catastrophes such as these?"

Hi, Tricia. I really loved reading your comment. I had very similar thoughts about the harsh simplicity of the Ingalls' lives as I re-read this childhood favorite.

It has probably been 30 or 35 years since I first read On the Banks of Plum Creek. I thoroughly enjoyed it this time, but I certainly saw it from a much different perspective than when I was a child!

Karol wrote: "Just finished On the Banks of Plum Creek.

Tricia wrote: "What gave me more to think about this time was how devastating their lives must have been when the grasshoppers ate the whole..."

Farming is still a dicey and risky business where one is at the mercy of the elements but also pests such as grasshoppers and the like. However, when one considers that modern North American farmers usually have crop insurance and the like, one should remember that all of this was not yet the case when Charles Ingalls tried to sow and grow wheat on the banks of plum creek, and that this would not be the case until, I believe, the 20th century.

Gundala, I believe you are absolutely right about that. Farmers back in the day were so much at the mercy of the elements. They needed to have years of abundance where they could store up resources in order to get through the bad years - but the Ingalls' luck was not so great as they got started in a very bad year. Yet they survived. The resilience of everyone in the family was quite remarkable.