Pakistani Readers discussion

How to ameliorate Aurat March ?
What are the struggle of feminists to highlight women’s plight in Pakistan ?

Members of this group !
Engage in healthy discussion with patience and put forth your argument with historical facts

Nobody's got problems with Women's Rights. They have problems with Feminism. You may think there's no difference between the two ideas but for a lot of people, there is. The biggest difference is that Feminism is a foreign/Western idea, whereas Women's Rights can fairly well be phrased in local terms.

This is what the entire debate is about. The spearheads of Aurat March are feminists which is a Western movement and we don't like foreign pathogens invading our culture. It'd be a stretch to say that if Feminism was never brought up people would be fine, but I believe that people who care about Women's Rights could've done a better job of noticing the tribal paranoia and made Aurat March look less Western than it does right now.

In my personal opinion, this whole thing is a shitshow and I'm out of it. Let's not deny that Aurat March reeks of socialist propaganda, and its opponents are just generally dumb and confused. I don't know what side to take so I'll gracefully stay out of this nonsense.

@jogi agreed .
Not all men are dogs neither all women are pious . Pakistani society gives women two strands ; constitutional and religious . Constitutional + religious dogmas gives women pol+ eco + social rights . Men stood beside women in all walk of life . A simple example is “ joru ka ghulam” . It’s apt phrase and most of men either fear from wife or mother . And trust me , I have seen European women and Pakistani women , the latter is privileged and honoured and lovely .
Yes , harassment + domestic violence exist . But would it be suitable to castigate all men on behest of few?
Our local feminists are trying to be Viriginia Woolf and Herriat Tubeman through Aurat March.
Dividing society along gender would be fatal and benefit only few.

This book may help answer the questions people have. I'm reading it currently and it's very well-researched.

I completely agree with the first reply. If all these Paki Feminists really want to do something, they should first have a manifesto/literature based purely on local dynamics rather than blindly copying and applying the Western thought. But here comes the real issue. Most of these people are heavily influenced by West and studied in Western universities for degrees, having just a mundane understanding of the real issues of Pakistani society. Just whatever they read or listen on media....

I am stunned at the aurat march opinions here. It's hard to tell by the usernames, but it appears all the opinions come from males. What a shame! Even learned men who read can remain trapped within toxic cultural agendas and cries of 'western propaganda'. Utter shame.

Komal wrote: "I am stunned at the aurat march opinions here. It's hard to tell by the usernames, but it appears all the opinions come from males. What a shame! Even learned men who read can remain trapped within..."

I apologize from the side of males. We'd rather watch motivational videos on western brought technologies and hail the mullahs raping children in madrasas rather than read into the essence of feminism and the agenda of aurat march.
And then in our ignorance use the lifestyle feminism as a model to ridicule, harass and deprive women(and other sex members) of their rights.

Abdullah wrote: "Komal wrote: "I am stunned at the aurat march opinions here. It's hard to tell by the usernames, but it appears all the opinions come from males. What a shame! Even learned men who read can remain ..."

You need not apologize dear Abdullah, even though I appreciate you vocalizing the misogyny, hypocrisy, and ignorance embedded in the above opinions as well as in our society. A sad state of affairs. I must admit: I expected some semblance of logic, justice, and equity from people of literature, but alas, I am aghast at the narrow-minded, uninformed opinions of people here.

All one has to do is talk to the women around them, especially those near and dear to them, to understand the essence of feminism that is embodied and needs practice. You do it for the people you love: your mother, wife, sister, daughter, niece... that alone should be enough for you to understand that their lives need improvements and rights which they don't have.

Thank you, nonetheless, for pointing out some ugly truths and becoming a voice of sanity! I realize we haven't spoken in ages, but it is good to randomly see you here.

The essence of feminism is Noble , I agree that in our society especially feminism would be a welcome change. I don't support most if at all any of our local Mullahs but I don't like the feminism I encounter on the internet either . Depends on the context I guess. The " all men are trash " I don't support , the " equity for women " variety I do.

Abdullah wrote: "Komal wrote: "I am stunned at the aurat march opinions here. It's hard to tell by the usernames, but it appears all the opinions come from males. What a shame! Even learned men who read can remain ..."

Look what I found

There is only one opinion in this thread which treads the line of misogyny (cf. message 3), but if you know your people well and are not a bleeding heart goober, you'd realize that most of these sentiments are actually innocuous. I assure you, no one in this thread is going to become a wife beater nor has the potential to become one save for me. The ones you should be fearing are the ones we all fear : the ones who'd have half our libraries censored.

It seems like a certain passionate lady has misconstrued my words to mean I'm against Feminism or Aurat March, even though I made it very clear that I don't give two ants asses (rats are too big) about the whole affair. My only prevailing sentiment is ... well, like all my sentiments about all things: "If I were the one in charge (of Aurat March in this case), I would have done it better".

But onto the defense of the vile misogynists and rapists in this thread: They have a point. Before your brain shuts from the blood overflow, hear me out. Their point points you in the right direction to take about this whole affair. People are very iffy about anything Western here; it's almost on the same level as 'Nazi' in Western countries -- it's a semantic stop sign. All you have to do is very carefully avoid allusions to what you call 'lifestyle Feminism', and what the locals here call 'Western Propaganda' (see where this is going? you guys are out of touch with the mindset of your opponents). I completely agree with anyone who says that phrasing the Women's Rights solution in local terms is restrictive and ineffectual in the long run, but it doesn't have to be a long term thing. You can very easily even have lifestyle Feminism here but ... one bite at a time. Phrase a local solution, don't let them suspect anything Western, and once you have your cherry, you can go for the cake. And you can have the 'socialism' cake too, if you have the brains or inclination for that, but once you get there, you'll have to face me; because that's the only sludge I can't have seeping in my house.

Changes like these don't come overnight. In your head, there's a very straightforward chain of inference from shouting 'Western Propaganda' to 'Systematic Oppression of Women', but try to get out of your heads for once and realize that your opponents aren't actually thinking like that. Their shouting may culminate in oppression, I give you that, but to make them realize it you can't shout 'Misogynists!' back, unless you intend to make this whole discourse a discordant menagerie. If they shout Western Propaganda, show them what local/religious principles they are violating in doing so; if they suspect you of instigating gender wars, show them what they are trying to cover up.

Just avoid stereotyping (oh my god I actually did it) and slippery slopes (wacky woohoo based redpilled goon owned goobers).

An attempt to drag feminism in an irrelevant direction by creating connections that generalise fighters for women's rights in a single category is not an intelligent move. Using pretty words will not obscure the fact that a lot of men's understanding about women and their rights is poor and completely inaccurate. A lot of men project this, probably because they have never interacted properly with a woman before, even in their families and those they love, on the topic of their rights.

There is no such thing as not getting involved. A person either stands for rights or does not. Generalizing "feminists" and creating your own definitions of the word is not going to help.

Also imagine making fun of an individual who understands and sympathizes for the cause of the opposite gender's rights by calling them a 'simp'. That is a sad state of affairs with morals and is a clear sign that the undignified offender is beyond reach. Hence I must no longer waste my time here and be dragged into debates with folks who pretend to be experts on women and their problems but are not.

I absolutely agree with you. Now read the above again.

I didn't see the thread earlier. It's bit late for posting this as it seemed the discussion has ended and not on a good note.

However, guys please be more considerate of when talking to an individual with opposing views and try have a more civil conversation rather than plain ranting n basing others, calling names. it doesn't help anyone. You'd just reinforce other's thinking, belief's n prejudices. It is very rare that you'd convince others to change their views or admit that their views/beliefs are wrong and definitely never by bashing or shaming them. However, you do achieve is ruining platform's environment and the chances of engaging with them any other discussion or thread.

Please be mindful of it, while posting especially in discussion related threads. Thanks.