Victorians! discussion

Our second instalment sees the Hales settling into Milton a little, making new acquaintances, improving some, and forming new friendships as well. As people from very different places, and with different, often contrasting ideas interact, clashes/ conflicts are bound to occur, and so they do, with some debate, and also some misunderstandings and misinterpretations. And there are some secrets revealed and explanations as well. I’ll try and arrange our discussion the same as last week—places, people, and events.

Places:
This week of course we stay in Milton alone (unlike the last segment which has a lot of travel) with the south and London mentioned only in conversation, but the places we visited, the homes of our characters offered much contrast—as much as the characters and their views.

The Hales’ home: This bore traces of their life at Helstone, and the things they had there—the davenport, chintz curtains, tall china vase, wreaths of ivy, pale birch, and copper coloured beech, books that were read and not merely there for display, the ladies’ work baskets—welcoming and warm despite its small size.

Thornton drawing room: ‘colder’ somehow—despite its riches—no dust, a glass chandelier, smartly bound books (more for appearance perhaps)—showing as Gaskell writes ‘no care and labour to procure ease’ but ‘solely to ornament and then to preserve ornament from dirt and destruction’.

Higgins’ home: rough-stoning, not very clean despite Mary’s best efforts to tidy the place up, squab short sofa, but a fire lit to welcome the visitor, even in hot weather—but more welcoming than the Thornton home, it seems.

What did you make of the three homes we visited, certainly they had a lot to say about those that lived in them!

People:
Margaret: This week we saw her getting to know Milton a little better—when Mr Thornton comes to tea, there is a debate of sorts that they and Mr Hale end up having as to things in Milton—the relationships between master and workman, and of course life in the North and South generally which either side is inclined to take a not so positive view of. Masters might impose on workers during their hours of employment but as Mr Thornton says, workers too are people and it is not as though the masters have bought their minds or taken over their powers to think; on the other hand from her conversations with the Higgins’ we see how the workers don’t seem to think the masters could ever have a hard time. As far as the romance thread of the story is concerned, Margaret seems to have noticed Mr Thornton’s smile and liked it, even though she doesn’t like him very much still.

Mrs Hale: We finally learn that Mrs Hale’s illness is not merely fancy or something minor but a life-threatening illness, something she didn’t want her family to know but Margaret finds out all the same; so she too has been strong in her own way, bearing her pain, and the weight of her secret as well as all that went wrong in Frederick’s case.

Mr Thornton: He is clearly interested in Margaret wanting to converse with her even if their opinions don’t incline with each other and he still finds her haughty. He continues to go out of his way to make the Hales feel welcome, convincing his unwilling mother and sister to call on them and even invite them to dinner. On the other side, his mind is occupied with the impending strike during which he could lose much. He (and other millowners) seem to be facing tough competition from American products, and need to cut costs to be able to compete.

Mrs Thornton: She is rather cold and hard; perhaps because of the hard life they have lived; fiercely proud of her son, inclined to think that every young woman is vying for his attentions and of course out to marry him; and quick to take offence as well. She seems to form her opinions (as do most other characters in the book, and people generally) based on first impressions, not may be trying to see what lies behind things, or what the circumstances are—thus her dislike of Margaret, and idea of Mrs Hale as merely a fanciful invalid.

Bessy Higgins: We learn more of Bessy’s story and the source of her illness—the fluff from the factories which can be taken care of with some investment by the owners but which hasn’t been by all. At 19, all she can look forward to, is death. The same age as Margaret, what different and contrasting lives the two have led. In Bessy and Nicholas, the issue to religion to crops up again—Bessy attempting to keep up her prayers and belief as best as she can while Nicholas not being in much agreement.

Fanny Thornton: She seems to be made of completely different stuff than her mother and brother—perhaps a little self-centred and may be indulged by her mother and brother rather than a ‘weak’ person as her mother makes her out to be.

Dixon: Dixon too has been carrying Mrs Hale’s secret, all the time blaming Mr Hale perhaps for the state her mistress is in, and recalling the kindness she showed her as a girl. But all the same she loves her mistress and is serving her, heart and soul. Her relationship with Margaret changes some more in this segment as she notices signs of the Beresfords in Margaret as well and begins to think her worthy of notice.

What did you think of our characters this week? It seems already that a lack of communication, a lack of understanding is what is keeping most of our characters asunder—Mr and Mrs Hale love each other in their own way but different interests and circumstances have drawn them apart, and neither seems to understand where what the other is going through even though they each try to avoid hurting the other. On the other side, masters and workmen each don’t seem to understand the other’s problems—perhaps Margaret will play a role there? She is the only one who seems to bel listening to both sides. What did you think?

Events:
Visits and Tea: There are plenty of calls and even some tea in this segment—Mr Thornton coming to tea at the start, then Mrs Thornton and Fanny’s call on the Hales, Margaret and Mr Hale returning the call, and finally Margaret’s two visits to the Higgins house after having initially forgotten her promise. At these, there are various conversations—from Margaret learning of Bessy’s life and illness to discussion on religion, on the relations between millowners and workers, and even the impending strike. Mrs Thornton leaves with a not very positive impression of Margaret (she was inimical to start with) and the return call does nothing to improve it.

The Mutiny: In this segment, we finally learn of the mutiny in which Frederick was involved—the cruel captain under whom he had to serve, the revolt, and the unjust way the authorities responded. And that he was now in Spain. His mother is fretting over him, her first-born and wanting to meet him once before she dies.

Mrs Hale’s illness: Not quite an event I know, but something we discover in this segment—that she is indeed ill, and seriously so. Poor Margaret must take responsibility here as well and protect both her parents; at the same time, she regrets not having been there with her mother all these years.

The Strike: well, impending strike—the workers are preparing to stop work for better wages, while not really understanding that the masters are really in trouble themselves. But they are determined even at the cost of starving themselves, and bring harm to both sides to strike. Bessy disapproves, but Nicholas is adamant. Mr Thornton meanwhile seems to plan to bring in workers from Ireland; Will the strike really take place? What will its consequences be?

Dialect: Also not an event, but what did we think of Gaskell’s use of dialect?

How did you like this segment?

I really like your way of doing chapter introductions, Lady Clementina! It's a good mixture of recapitulating major events and giving people some food for thought.

One of my favourite activities has become finding fault with Mr. Hale, as it might appear, and this week's chapters continue giving me ammunition: His tendency to shun responsibility and to practise double-think becomes clear when he senses that something serious is wrong with his wife's health - and maybe that their moving to the north with its smoky air may have made her health problems worse -, and yet he plays a strange game of double-bind with Margaret. He points out to her that something may be wrong with her mother, but the way he talks to Margaret makes it very clear to his daughter that he expects her to reassure him that everything is okay. This "eh? eh?" he constantly uses is very annoying, and his underhanded way of addressing his wife's health problems puts his daughter into an awkward position: Should she play down the problem (and risk her mother's getting worse, maybe?) or make a clear breast of her apprehensions (and unsettle poor tender-hearted Mr. Hale)? - What a wonderful father!

I hope we will see Margaret's brother enter the scene one day! From what Mrs. Hale tells us about him, he is also somebody with a keen sense of justice and a susceptible conscience. Unlike Mr. Hale, however, his conscience revolts at the injustice done to others and he is willing to sacrifice his own advantage and well-being for the sake of sheltering his men from the tyranny of the captain.

Before I forget: Do we actually learn what exactly Mrs. Hale is suffering from?

Lady Clementina wrote: "Mrs Hale: We finally learn that Mrs Hale’s illness is not merely fancy or something minor but a life-threatening illness, something she didn’t want her family to know

This is very telling. We've been hammering Mr. Hale for upending the family's life, but Mrs. Hale is guilty of the same thing. The two are really two peas in the same pot. What are the consequences when you withhold important information?

Would Mr Hale have contemplated to leave the Church at this time and move the family across the country knowing his wife is seriously ill?

Did Mrs. Hale seriously endanger her own health by not seeking medical care in a timely fashion?

Lady Clementina wrote: "Bessy Higgins: We learn more of Bessy’s story and the source of her illness—the fluff from the factories."

The name of Bessy's illness is Byssinosis, or brown lung disease.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byssinosis

Kerstin wrote: Did Mrs. Hale seriously endanger her own health by not seeking medical care in a timely fashion?

..."
I got the impression she was aware of what she had--as was Dixon, and that she was simply not communicating this to her family. But the more practical aspects of whether and how she was getting any treatment so far, I can't really say.

Tristram wrote: "I really like your way of doing chapter introductions, Lady Clementina! It's a good mixture of recapitulating major events and giving people some food for thought.

One of my favourite activities h..."

Thanks Tristram!

I felt rather bad for Margaret this time--both parents seem to be putting her in a similar position--leaving it to her to be the strong one, to do all the work, and to take care of them both. Re Mr Hale, he does seem to want to close his eyes to anything tha might cause him any unpleasantness--like thoughts that his wife might be really ill (and that bringing her to Milton might have caused it) or having to break the news of his decision and the move to her and face her reaction (heartbreak)--he simply wants to seek refuge in his books and leave the rest to others.

Tristram wrote: "Before I forget: Do we actually learn what exactly Mrs. Hale is suffering from?"

Not so far--just that it was serious and would eventually lead to her death.

Kerstin wrote: "Lady Clementina wrote: "Bessy Higgins: We learn more of Bessy’s story and the source of her illness—the fluff from the factories."

The name of Bessy's illness is Byssinosis, or brown lung disease...."
Thanks for sharing that Kerstin. I'd completely forgotten to look that up.

I particularly appreciated the descriptions of the three homes, and even more, the responses to the others' by Margaret and the Thorntons. There is so much information to be gleaned from these passages. So the characterisation is developed at the same time as we learn more about the differences in households, some based on money, others on taste according to Northern or Southern lifestyles. It is interesting that as readers looking back on the period I think that we are encouraged to see the Hale's home as far more pleasant than that of the Thornton's. However, what do we have in our own homes? Antimacassars? Bits and pieces gathering dust? Clutter? No, the only similarity with the Hales' are our books! The mention of a piano is very familiar to me as an Australian - here in the early years of colonisation every middle class home had to have one! The Thorntons have something in common with the striving of those who had left 'home' (Britain) and were making lives for themselves in the new colony.

The two major pieces of information provided, the reality of Mrs Hale's ill health and the reason for Frederick's absence. The relationship between Margaret and Dixon changes, but that between the Hales does not. Margaret retains her role as the recipient of bad news that must be conveyed sympathetically to an ignorant parent and the parents maintain a relationship that is built on hiding bad news from each other.

The juxtaposition of Frederick's story and his sympathetic response to the men's plight with the manufacturers' lack of understanding of the workers' rights and needs is an excellent way of highlighting differences. Margaret's responses to Nicholas Higgins' statements about the strike suggest that her sense of justice is not so keen. Also, she is not particularly diligent in visiting |Bessie Higgins, although this would be in keeping with the life she laments having lost .

As the proposed strike is seen from different view points, it further develops our understanding of the characters. But I wonder what Gaskell wanted us to believe? Margaret and Higgins believe attitudes towards the strike highlights the differences between North and South. However, any labour historian knows that although the industrialisation of the north made differences between owners and workers more obvious, in any home in the south servants were also in their employers' power. And, of course, while manufacturing was in the north, the south also had worker/employer relationships in their businesses.

Religious attitudes are important aspect of the way in which each character involved in the discussion about the proposed strike. Margaret certainly believes that ones station in life is determined and immutable; Higgins disagrees; Bessie just wants peace from the suffering inflicted on her by her work in the mills. The hymn, All Things Bright and Beautiful' , portrays Margaret's ideas beautifully - each is born to his estate and should remain there. I think that Gaskell rather glosses over the class differences in some ways. She wants Thornton to be a sympathetic character so compares his behaviour favourably with that of another mill owner. Bessie's cotton filled lungs (and lack of compensation) are the evidence that labour is treated badly by all the mill owners. I shall be interested in seeing if Frederick appears and if his sense of justice applies to worker and employer relationships in his new home.

Robin wrote: "The juxtaposition of Frederick's story and his sympathetic response to the men's plight with the manufacturers' lack of understanding of the workers' rights and needs is an excellent way of highlighting differences. ..."

That's a good catch--I hadn't thought of considering the differences in response in those two instances--perhaps though, as Frederick is working alongside the men, and experiencing first hand their plight, he is able to understand their situation better.

While Mr Thornton has worked his way up, perhaps he isn't quite taking into account the problems they are facing, the same as they seem unaware of the millowners' troubles.

Robin wrote: "I particularly appreciated the descriptions of the three homes, and even more, the responses to the others' by Margaret and the Thorntons. There is so much information to be gleaned from these pass..."
They certainly reflect their backgrounds, and even the lives they lead--besides their natures.

I do so like how you set the discussion on each segment categorizing them into places, characters, and events, Mallika. It gives such a dramatic quality to each part. :)

I particularly enjoyed the descriptions of the three houses. Sure they show the characters and habits of the inhabitants. Hale's home shows a cultivated mind, taste and gentility and has a southern touch. The Thornton house shows their longing for power and wealth. The house is more ornamental than providing comfort. It was a representation of Nothern power against Southern cultivation. Higgins's home is, of course, that of the poor working class. But as Mallika has observed, it is warm and welcoming.

Robin wrote: "I particularly appreciated the descriptions of the three homes, and even more, the responses to the others' by Margaret and the Thorntons. There is so much information to be gleaned from these pass..."

Robin, your entire comment shows how far we've come since the 1850s in worker's rights and the human implications of inadequate working conditions. It was a painful process. I find this book a fascinating historical snapshot into the industrial revolution when everything was still so raw.

Robin wrote: "The hymn, All Things Bright and Beautiful' , portrays Margaret's ideas beautifully "

I was looking for the passage in the text, Robin, but I can't find it. Where is the hymn quoted?

Kerstin wrote: "Robin wrote: "The hymn, All Things Bright and Beautiful' , portrays Margaret's ideas beautifully "

I was looking for the passage in the text, Robin, but I can't find it. Where is the hymn quoted?"
Sorry, it is not in the text, I was using my knowledge from my own experience and also reading a novel by Barbra Pym in which it is mentioned. It is a religious underpinning to the ideas that Margaret is expressing and I thought it worth a mention. Other readers with a great knowledge of religious matters would no doubt be able to find passages that support Margaret's views. But none, possibly, that defend Mr Higgins.

Kerstin wrote: "Robin wrote: "I particularly appreciated the descriptions of the three homes, and even more, the responses to the others' by Margaret and the Thorntons. There is so much information to be gleaned f..."

Thank you, Kerstin. My hackles were in full stance at times, reading some of the conversations. We have come a long way and thank goodness.

Robin wrote: "Thank you, Kerstin. My hackles were in full stance at times, reading some of the conversations. We have come a long way and thank goodness."

LOL! Robin, it was an honest reaction. :-)

Robin wrote: "I was looking for the passage in the text, Robin, but I can't find it. Where is the hymn quoted?"
Sorry, it is not in the text, I was using my knowledge from my own experience and also reading a novel by Barbra Pym in which it is mentioned. It is a religious underpinning to the ideas that Margaret is expressing and I thought it worth a mention. Other readers with a great knowledge of religious matters would no doubt be able to find passages that support Margaret's views. But none, possibly, that defend Mr Higgins."

I did look up the hymn, which I've sung countless times, to see where the point of contention is. Most hymns have far more verses than are typically printed in a hymnal, so I looked up the original to see if there is something that could prick today's sensibilities:

1.
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful,
The Lord God made them all.

2.
Each little flower that opens,
Each little bird that sings,
He made their glowing colours,
He made their tiny wings.

All things bright ...

3.
The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate,
God made them high and lowly,
And ordered their estate.

All things bright ...

4.
The purple headed mountain,
The river running by,
The sunset and the morning,
That brightens up the sky;−

All things bright ...

5.
The cold wind in the winter,
The pleasant summer sun,
The ripe fruits in the garden,−
He made them every one:

All things bright ...

6.
The tall trees in the greenwood,
The meadows where we play,
The rushes by the water,
We gather every day;−

All things bright ...

7.
He gave us eyes to see them,
And lips that we might tell,
How great is God Almighty,
Who has made all things well.

All things bright ...

It is a hymn to the glory of Creation, and that's how I think of it, but verse 3 could raise eyebrows. Honestly, I have no idea if this verse is even still used. it sounds like a prime candidate to being dumped. I would have to look it up in our hymnal, but since all churches are locked due to covid-19 that will have to wait.

I find the exchange in chapter XV between Margaret and Mr. Thornton fascinating. She really holds her own and her arguments have quite some sophistication.

"there are passages in the Bible which would rather imply—to me at least—that they [mill owners] neglected their duty as stewards"

This goes to the heart of the biblical understanding that anyone in a leading position is the first servant, a steward. For her coming from a rural background the steward concept is second nature. All life depends on good stewardship toward people dependent on you, the land and animals. That's the ideal to strive for.

"I see two classes dependent on each other in every possible way, yet each evidently regarding the interests of the other as opposed to their own; I never lived in a place before where there were two sets of people always running each other down.'"

Margaret really has a visceral reaction to the antagonism within the social stratification she experiences in Milton. From her background it is intuitive to her that all is interconnected, there is a reciprocal dependency - if acknowledged - that lifts people up instead of being "run down", that gives each person dignity and purpose. In her words, "a human right."

Firmly rooted in her faith, Margaret sees the human connection first. Do people thrive or do they suffer?

Mr. Thornton does hold his own in this exchange as well, as she is schooled (which she doesn't like) in the complexities of the economics, fluctuations of the market, etc. of running a textile mill. Mr. Thornton isn't unfeeling, but if the entire enterprise is to succeed multiple factors have to work in tandem. We get a first glimpse there are no easy answers.

Piyangie wrote: "I do so like how you set the discussion on each segment categorizing them into places, characters, and events, Mallika. It gives such a dramatic quality to each part. :)

I particularly enjoyed the..."
Thanks Piyangie.

I agree on the Thornton home--also I think, it seems to reflect Mrs Thornton's hardness/coldness by lacking any warmth or hospitality despite having so much in terms of wealth.

Kerstin wrote: "We get a first glimpse there are no easy answers. ..."
That's true-for things to work such that all involved can get all they want from it, or at least even lead reasonable lives is not an easy matter. And the fact that none of those involves has a grasp of all that is concerned adds to the difficulties.

I wonder how 'Teatime with Thornton' would have carried on had Fred been in the picture. ;)

Yes, as you say: Gaskell does not give us any easy answers when she introduces the strike into the story. We do have the somewhat underhanded millowner Slickson, who tries to buy his workers off with false promises but we also learn that Mr. Thornton would despise such tactics and consequently not use them in his own dealings with his workers. Thornton is a tough customer to deal with but he is honest and he also does not expect his workers to submit to his wishes outside the factory context - this is clearly different from the patronising attitude a southern landowner might have had towards his tenants. All in all, if you compare the situation in North and South, it is much more ambiguous than that Dickens drew in Hard Times, where we have the victimized worker Stephen Blackwood and the humbug millowner Bounderby, who is but a caricature. Gaskell herself has gone a long way from her own depiction of class struggles in Mary Barton, where he clearly says that if workers and millowners only connected in a strong sense of Christian brotherhood, all problems could be solved admirably. This naivity was what put me off from Gaskell's first novel, and I hope the author will not lose her analytical approach to the causes of the class struggle in the course of this novel.

Mrs. Thornton may not be painted in too welcoming colours but I like her anyway: She is full of love for her children, especially her son, and has denied herself many a comfort and indulgence in order to make it possible for her son to get a useful education - in the sense of utilitarianism - and rise as a factory owner. She may not be refined by southern standards but she is made of admirably stern stuff and a much better parent than Mr. and Mrs. Hale.

I find it also quite surprising how modern North and South is in many ways although we have come a long way, as you say: Mr. Thornton's considering importing willing and more pliable hands from Ireland made me think of the modern phenomenon of globalization, where companies simply outsource their production into low-wage countries.

For all her complaining, Mrs. Hale as the parson's wife in Helstone had a role to fulfill. There were all sorts of projects she did for the community in their care. They knew all parishioners by name, their needs, their health. Nobody was anonymous. With this move Mrs. Hale looses her purpose, and instead of being known by everyone and living in community, most of Milton doesn't even know she exists.

In Helstone her failing health would have become public sooner or later, and the community would have shown their compassion and support by visiting and helping the family the best they could, reciprocating her generosity. No such thing is happening in Milton.

Kerstin wrote: "In Helstone her failing health would have become public sooner or later, and the community would have shown their compassion and support by visiting and helping the family the best they could, reciprocating her generosity. No such thing is happening in Milton."

Yes, but might we not put this down rather to the family being newcomers and being viewed by their neighbours as putting up their noses rather high than to a general lack of neighbourly interest and sympathy among the Northern people? The Hales don't know anybody in Milton and Mrs. Hale is hardly able - neither physically nor socially - to build up a circle of acquaintances apart from the Thorntons. Apart from that, whatever they do or say is likely to be misconstrued as a token of their arrogance by a rather bitter and suspicious Mrs. Thornton.

I spent a year in the north of England and have found the majority of people very outgoing, helpful and open-hearted there.

I very much enjoyed the chapter "Masters and Men". I found it to be thought-provoking. This simple observation of Margaret particularly struck me."I see two classes dependent on each other in every possible way, yet each evidently regarding the interests of the other as opposed to their own..." This rift is one of the powerful themes of this story.

I continue to be aware of how Gaskell uses rather obtuse male characters to drive plot. Mr. Hale's ego not only gets the family to Milton, but his blindness to his wife's illness also creates suspense/tension that pushes towards a crisis. Mrs. Gaskell was writing serial fiction for a popular publication Household Words, and she must have learned from Dickens to use a lot of devices to ramp up reader interest from week to week. I wonder if Dickens appreciated the fact that her obtuse or blind characters are mainly men! Women have secrets that also drive the plot interest, but their motivation is generally not egotistical.

Thank you for mentioning dialect - Mrs. Gaskell's husband was apparently an "expert" in Lancashire dialect and proofed her draft versions. Dixon also has a distinctive speech pattern as a domestic servant from the South, but she doesn't come across with as much vividness as the Lancashire characters.

Tristram wrote: "Yes, but might we not put this down rather to the family being newcomers and being viewed by their neighbours as putting up their noses rather high than to a general lack of neighbourly interest and sympathy among the Northern people?"

Let me clarify. My focus was the different general dynamics of a rural setting vs. an urban setting. No matter where a big town or city is, there is more anonymity compared to a small village.
As newcomers the Hales have yet to build up a new circle of friends and acquaintances. That takes time, and is always a vulnerability when moving a long distance. It really harks back to what I've posted previously, would Mr. Hale have moved had he known the true state of his wife's health. She isn't innocent either. By withholding this information, even at the late date when she found out about the move, she put herself in a more vulnerable position than necessary, and her family has to cope without their previous support system.

Reading all the comments on the Hales made me think of how selfish and uncaring Mr. Hale's conduct towards his wife in removing them all from Helstone to a smoky city when his wife was already complaining about her health under pure country air of Helstone. Was he attributing it to a mere complaint arising from a dissatisfied life? Now we can see that Mrs. Hale's health is truly affected. Perhaps she had her ailment all along and it contributed to her irritation and dissatisfaction.

However, I believe that all this drama and anger that would certainly arise in readers against Mr. Hale was a necessary element of the story to keep the readers engaged. And also the move to North was necessary too as the story is more or less a clash of North and South.

Piyangie wrote: "Reading all the comments on the Hales made me think of how selfish and uncaring Mr. Hale's conduct towards his wife in removing them all from Helstone to a smoky city when his wife was already comp..."

I agree, Piyangie, except that I’m not sure if the move to the city was really a choice. Once he gave up his living in Helstone, Mr Hale had to work to earn money for his family & couldn’t afford to stay in the same area. He was offered a job in a city where housing would have been relatively inexpensive. Perhaps it would have been irresponsible to refuse the opportunity?

Trisha wrote: "He was offered a job in a city where housing would have been relatively inexpensive. Perhaps it would have been irresponsible to refuse the opportunity? "

The reason I suspect Mr. Hale doesn't want to go to Oxford and join his old tutor, Mr. Bell is alluded to in these lines:

[Mrs. Hale:] "'Private tutor in Milton! Why can't he go to Oxford, and be a tutor to gentlemen?' 'You forget, mamma! He is leaving the Church on account of his opinions—his doubts would do him no good at Oxford.'"

In the complicated religious landscape of 19th century England you have the Oxford Movement, or Tractarians. From Wikipedia:

The Tractarians postulated the Branch Theory, which states that Anglicanism along with Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism form three "branches" of the historic Catholic Church. Tractarians argued for the inclusion of traditional aspects of liturgy from medieval religious practice, as they believed the church had become too "plain". In the final tract, "Tract 90", Newman argued that the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church, as defined by the Council of Trent, were compatible with the Thirty-Nine Articles of the 16th-century Church of England. Newman's eventual reception into the Roman Catholic Church in 1845, followed by Henry Edward Manning in 1851, had a profound effect upon the movement

Now John Henry Newman was a star in the Anglican Church, a brilliant theologian and he wrote exceptional sermons. When he ended up converting to Roman Catholicism in 1845 that sent enormous shock-waves through the Anglican Church. He became a priest and rose to the rank of Cardinal. Just very recently he was canonized as a saint. There were quite a few members of the Oxford Movement that converted to Roman Catholicism and their influence reverberated for many decades to come. One of the most famous is the poet Gerard Manley Hopkins who became a Jesuit priest. Oscar Wilde wanted to convert while at Oxford, but his father threatened to disinherit him. He converted on his deathbed. Robert Hugh Benson, a son of the Archbishop of Cantebury, Edward White Benson, converted in 1904 and became a priest as well. He was a prolific author, and sadly died at the age of 42 from pneumonia. His most famous work is LORD OF THE WORLD.

So in a round-about way, Mr. Hale can't go to Oxford, there are too many Catholics. :-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_...

Yikes! I don't understand it all (as a Christian too, shamefully) and Gaskell was certainly being vague on purpose but thank you Kerstin for the additional info.

I'm in the minority that somewhat feels sorry for Mr Hale. In a way he sort of was undergoing a kind of religious persecution by being restricted geographically or at least was ostracized in some respects for having a differing opinion.

Trisha wrote: "I agree, Piyangie, except that I’m not sure if the move to the city was really a choice. Once he gave up his living in Helstone, Mr Hale had to work to earn money for his family & couldn’t afford to stay in the same area. He was offered a job in a city where housing would have been relatively inexpensive. Perhaps it would have been irresponsible to refuse the opportunity?..."

You have a point there, Trisha. Mr. Hale was treading on uncertain waters after giving up his living on Helstone. And it is only prudent to accept the first favorable opportunity he could get to make a living. Unfortunately, it was to Milton Northern, a smoky city. But I also think Mr. Hale took his wife's health complaints lightly and put it on her general dissatisfaction with their situation.

Thank you, Kerstin, for your detailed explanation. I didn’t understand the reference to Oxford when I was reading the book. It was certainly a very difficult situation for Mr Hale & I can see why Lois feels sorry for him - even though, from a modern perspective, I think he should have discussed his situation properly with his wife. I suppose at that time it wasn’t considered necessary.

Lois wrote: "Yikes! I don't understand it all (as a Christian too, shamefully) and Gaskell was certainly being vague on purpose but thank you Kerstin for the additional info.

I'm in the minority that somewhat ..."

You're welcome! Church history is so varied and comprehensive few know everything, I certainly don't.

There is no question Mr. Hale had a difficult time of it. I do sympathize there. Conversions are game-changers.

FYI - I made a small edit in my comment above and linked John Henry Newman to his GR page.

Tristram wrote: "Thornton is a tough customer to deal with but he is honest and he also does not expect his workers to submit to his wishes outside the factory context - this is clearly different from the patronising attitude a southern landowner might have had towards his tenants...."

I admit, when I was reading this part in the book, the slave-owner/slave relationship did cross my mind. When I got farther into Thornton's explanation, I could see the difference. He doesn't expect to have control over his workers outside of the work environment. The thing that really caused me to make that connection in the first place, though, is his comparison of the workers to children in their intellectual and emotional development. To me, his reasoning is flawed as he stubbornly maintains that no explanation is required to the workers for the decisions of management, while at the same time deriding the reactions of the workers to these decisions. He makes no allowance for the possibility of these reactions being based on being kept in ignorance of the truth, insisting that the "do what I say and don't question me" parental approach is the most effective. I loved Margaret's analogy of Thornton's theory to the story of the father keeping his son a child all his life and how destructive it ultimately was. I thought she won that interchange, but he probably didn't see it that way! :) We also learn some important character traits about Thornton through this exchange: his honesty and his tenacity.

Okay, everyone else probably noticed this too, but I knew that romance was brewing between these two (at least, I think it is--haven't read ahead!) when Margaret took him in dislike because he is "prejudiced" against the South, while he is convinced that she is "disagreeably proud." Anyone else see that? Add to that the fact that his strong-willed female relative thinks Margaret too far beneath him for a possible wife, and there you have it! :) (No, I don't think she copied P&P; just can't help notice key points).

I became personally convinced that Thornton is "The One" when Gaskell described his teeth. A guy with that great a smile just can't lose!! (I have a thing for teeth--don't judge me!)

Cindy wrote: " To me, his reasoning is flawed as he stubbornly maintains that no explanation is required to the workers for the decisions of management, while at the same time deriding the reactions of the workers to these decisions. He makes no allowance for the possibility of these reactions being based on being kept in ignorance of the truth, insisting that the "do what I say and don't question me" parental approach is the most effective."

Cindy, by writing this out something jumped out at me, Mr. Hale did the exact same thing when he decided to move his family. Withholding critical information has the potential of making a mess of things further down the road.

Kerstin wrote: "Trisha wrote: "He was offered a job in a city where housing would have been relatively inexpensive. Perhaps it would have been irresponsible to refuse the opportunity? "

The reason I suspect Mr. H..."
At the time Gaskell was writing North and South, Oxford University required adherence to the 39 Articles of the Church of England in order to receive a degree or teach. This excluded Catholics, dissenting Protestants such as Presbyterians, Methodists, Quakers, and of course Jews and members of other religions. It changed in 1854 but her character Mr Hale would not have been able to teach at Oxford.

Lesley wrote: "At the time Gaskell was writing North and South, Oxford University required adherence to the 39 Articles of the Church of England in order to receive a degree or teach. This excluded Catholics, dissenting Protestants such as Presbyterians, Methodists, Quakers, and of course Jews and members of other religions. It changed in 1854 but her character Mr Hale would not have been able to teach at Oxford."

Ah, another piece of the puzzle! And this makes perfect sense since Anglicanism was the official state religion since the 16th century. Mr. Hale could have been a private tutor same as in Milton, but not have an affiliation with or teach at the university for it required the same oath he no longer could give.

The Oxford Movement originated out of High Church Anglicanism, and not all folks associated with it became converts, but the theological direction was too "Romish" for many. The whole thing didn't help the tension between High and Low Church for sure, let alone attract dissenters. So for this reason I don't think Mr. Hale would have even been attracted to find employment there. But it is entirely possible Gaskell only meant the oath.

Piyangie wrote: " But I also think Mr. Hale took his wife's health complaints lightly and put it on her general dissatisfaction with their situation. ..."
I would agree--I don't think he took it too seriously--also there doesn't seem to be any indication that the move to Milton specifically worsened the situation--from the way the doctor is reacting, it would seem the case would have proceeded the same irrespective of whether they went or didn't go.

Kerstin wrote: "Trisha wrote: "He was offered a job in a city where housing would have been relatively inexpensive. Perhaps it would have been irresponsible to refuse the opportunity? "

The reason I suspect Mr. H..."

Thanks for that Kirsten--it makes things clearer.

Thanks, Kerstin for all your explanatory comments. They cleared many of my little puzzles.

Lady Clementina wrote: "I would agree--I don't think he took it too seriously--also there doesn't seem to be any indication that the move to Milton specifically worsened the situation--from the way the doctor is reacting, it would seem the case would have proceeded the same irrespective of whether they went or didn't go...."

Well, that is true. It wouldn't have made a difference, for form the way things are Mrs. Hale's ailment have to predate their time in Milton.

On thinking more about Mr. Hale's conduct, one can't entirely blame him for keeping to his own counsel and making his own decision. Mrs. Hale's discontent must have made him shrink from telling her of his doubts and troubles. He knew that he was destroying all hopes and ambitions that Mrs. Hale entertained for him by leaving Church. Even a strong man would have found it difficult, and Mr. Hale was a weak man.