Underground Knowledge — A discussion group discussion

I recently invited people on Linked In to check out a poll in THIS group asking members if they thought 9/11 was an inside job and a false flag to create more wars.
This related to a Linked IN group I (briefly) joined called The Intelligence Community which is a group for professionals in the intelligence field and has 50,000 members - surprisingly, anyone can join that group, so I did for a while. They also have a complimentary website which mentions all their high profile members like very senior figures in the CIA and even former directors of the likes of the DIA: http://www.theintelligencecommunity.com/

Anyway, after posting reference to this poll (which I admit was a bit cheeky given these people all work in US intelligence and probably don't even ever consider inside jobs), I was immediately mocked by several former US intelligence agency guys. One had served for decades in the CIA and the other was a veteran of the NSA/DIA. Both had lengthy careers spanning back to Vietnam. Anyway, out of curiosity and to find out how intelligence agents think about world events, I got into a lengthy discussion with them about it all which I figured I'd share here excerpts of.


The discussion started by one of the intel guys (the ex-CIA guy) saying that YES if Beta Lyreans (a form of alien speicies that UFO guys believe in I think) are here on Earth and the Illuminati run the world, then yes 9/11 was an Inside Job. But otherwise, if we are talking the real world, then it would be a NO.
The other intel guy (the NSA one) jumped in replying to the first guy saying "Be careful T___, you don't want to upset those Beta Lyreans or the Illuminati!!"


Here is my reply:

Funny posts guys and I fully agree with your implication that our modern culture is full of imbeciles who parrot ludicrous conspiracy theories that don't have a shred of evidence to support them.
However, I also feel it is very important to distinguish the sort of crazed tinfoil hat-style conspiracy theories you rightfully bring up with Beta Lyreans and Illuminati BS, from more plausible conspiracies such as there never being any WMDs in Iraq (a former conspiracy "theory" that as you know most Western governments now agree to be true upon analyzing the full range intelligence available a decade or so later).

'Operation Northwoods' should be required reading for all school children.
In a nutshell Northwoods is the US Military’s (declassified) proposal to kill American citizens on American soil using 'acts of terrorism' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operatio...
All official, all on-the-record, all very sad but true
The Northwoods documents reveal exactly how many senior figures in the Military Industrial Complex think and act i.e. they are programmed for perpetual war and are more than happy to use soldiers and everyday citizens as pawns.

Now although this proposed 1962 inside job was thankfully not carried out (fortunately JFK vetoed it at the last minute) it was called for by the CIA and had the full backing of all senior staff in the Department of Defense AND the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
Furthermore, Operation Northwoods is one of many such declassified documents about state-sponsored terrorist propsals in US/Western governments which when analyzed in their entirety reveal more than enough historical precedence for 9/11 POSSIBLY being an inside job.

Note the word possibly in the above as I have no idea (like zero hard evidence) to make me convinced 9/11 was an inside job. Lots of suspicions like building 7 and Dick Cheney's "stand down" orders, but nothing to be 100% certain it was an inside job.
However, to instantly dismiss all 9/11 inside job theories is to display your own naivity and lack of historical research into all the false flag Gulf of Tonkin-style operations routinely conducted by governments throughout recent decades to start (highly profitable) wars.

Besides reading the declassified Operation Northwoods documents, independent research (i.e. getting your information from outside of biased sources such as intel agencies. govt depts or the military) I would recommend would be researching the history of false flag acts which go back to Ancient Rome with emporer Nero...Another good example is the Nazis burning down the Reichstag (the seat of the German parliament) in the 1930s and blaming it on Communists in order to create enough "Red scare" paranoia to allow Hitler to sweep into power.

But the infamous Gulf of Tonkin incident is always the best starting place on false flag attacks conducted in more recent times. An NSA report on this event (declassified in 2005 and available for all to read) concluded there were no North Vietnamese Naval vessels present during the entire incident. Here's an excerpt from that declassified NSA report: “It is not simply that there is a different story as to what happened; it is that no attack happened that night.”

So guys, if an organization as biased as the NSA says no attack ever happened then you can bet your life the Gulf of Tonkin Incident was nothing but a phantom attack on the US Military. In other words, it was carefully scripted propaganda devised to manufacture consent for all-out war. Unfortunately, that propaganda ended up costing approximately 60,000 American lives and three million Vietnamese lives.

None of my comments here in this important debate should be misconstrued as implying most public servants in the intelligence sectors or governments are not honest, hard-working individuals. History proves that false flag operations and inside jobs can occur with just a few rotten eggs at the very top of administrations...

Another revealing fact is that now deceased US Army general Lyman Lemnitzer - who was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during the Kennedy administration and Supreme Allied Commander of NATO after JFK's assassination - was one of those who signed the Northwoods documents. His signature means in no uncertain terms that he was more than happy to order the murder of large numbers of his fellow American citizens (including women and children) in fake terrorist acts on US soil.

So if anyone in this group is serious in finding out how inside jobs and false flag operations are able to occur, you don't even need to follow the money trail as many independent researchers have suggested. All you need to do is simply look at whose signatures are on specific declassified documents available in the public domain. It's so simple even high school students could figure much of this stuff out - and in fact many of the smarter kids these days are now actually and that's why they don't bother even voting as they realize the entire system is a charade.

What's also interesting is that after Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas, Texas, Lemnitzer was immediately appointed Supreme Allied Commander of NATO...even though everyone in power (but not the American people just yet) knew he signed the documents that suggested the US Government stage 9/11-style terror attacks against US civilians...
Go figure!
Then again, maybe it's not so hard to figure out.
Lemintzer had proven he would do ANYTHING (no matter how depraved) to keep the lucrative war machine rolling and so he was rewarded after JFK's unfortunate demise by being promoted NATO Commander (NATO being a crucial part of the worldwide military industrial complex, of course).

In his 2001 book 'Body of Secrets: Anatomy of the Ultra-Secret National Security Agency from the Cold War Through the Dawn of a New Century', US political journalist and bestselling author James Bamford wrote that Operation Northwoods “called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war”.

Now let's think about that, people..."the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war"

Does that scenario familiar to anybody in this discussion??

These two former intelligence agents, then replied with slightly more respect but still basically condescending in tone. One pointed out that yes Northwoods occurred, but that it was just a proposal not an actual act of govt sponsored terrorism and that stupid ideas are regularly put forward in government dept. think tanks.
The other former intel agent replied that isolated fanatics in administrations never represent an entire administration. He added that no US administration would ever kill 3000 US citizens for an excuse to start a War and to even suggest that possibility is absurd!


Here is my reply:

Fully agree that stupid suggestions are raised in governments all the time. Politicians, in collaboration with the military and intelligence communities, brainstorm in think tanks and throw out the worst ideas, some of which are really crazy ideas...
This is forgivable as these elected officials are in the unenviable position of trying to solve extremely complex problems. And your comment that fanatics are not representative of entire US administrations also makes perfect sense... Anyone can tell the vast majority (probably 99%) of those in any US administration throughout history have been honest, hard-working public servants as I stated in earlier posts.

So following on from your bang-on-the money statements, the next questions would be: Do the “fanatics” you refer to in US administrations ever get their way? Are these fanatics’ crazy, evil and un-American plans ALWAYS thwarted every single time such as in the example of a single person in JFK blocking his entire Joint Chief of Staff’s and Dept of Defense’s malicious Northwoods terrorist proposals? Or, dare I ask, have there been rare instances in certain administrations when an honorable commander-in-chief was for some reason not around to block these fanatics?

Consider that you may be making the mistake of using the word Government instead of the phrase “certain individuals within the Government”. I am no expert on the 9/11 truth movement, but from the little I have read on these “truther” type people none of them seem to blaming the entire US Government in power at the time. That would be ridiculous as again, almost anybody knows most government employees are good people.
You make the bold and some would say naïve statement that no US administration would ever kill 3000 US citizens for an excuse to start a War. And you also say that to even suggest that possibility is absurd...

History refutes.

If the Gulf of Tonkin incident – which was to Vietnam what the 9/11 tragedy was to the Iraq/Afghan wars i.e. it was the “inciting incident” – has since been admitted to by the NSA and the likes of Robert McNamara as being a fabricated attack, then you’re talking 60,000 US lives (and 3,000,000+ Vietnamese lives) in the resulting Vietnam War. 9/11 is a drop in the ocean compared to that (Tonkin) false flag operation and many other similar CIA/NSA operations.

Again, I am not foolish enough to say 9/11 was DEFINITELY an inside job. If it was, the smoking gun is yet to be found. When you look at all the confusing and contradictory 9/11 facts, the wisest position appears to be to remain on the fence rather than trusting either government or conspiracy theorists. Nobody, including all the mid-level intelligence/military/political figures in this group, appears to know the truth or have access to that level of knowledge. Except for modern-day equivalents of Lyman Lemnitzer and Co (whoever they may be now) nobody really knows for sure what the hell happened on that terrible day.

So to instantly dismiss even the possibility of 9/11 being an inside job seems about as realistic as those tinfoil hat types who gullibly believe every conspiracy theory going. Both approaches are different sides of the same coin, and that coin is absolutism.

And speaking of the Constitution, consider what Thomas Jefferson said: “Freedom is lost gradually from an uninterested, uninformed and uninvolved people.” So how many US citizens do you think know about the Operation Northwoods documents? 2%? Or 5% maybe? 10% absolute tops I’d guess. And how many know that the Gulf of Tonkin incident is on the record as being a fabricated event of propaganda conducted by certain elements in the US Government?

Remember, democracy is founded entirely on the principles of rigorous debate. In a true democracy (as originally devised by the Ancient Greeks and which is reflected in US law to this day) even the lowliest citizen can challenge a king to a debate of ideas. The US Constitution (the fairest constitution ever written for any nation in history) has all these ideas incorporated into it.

So in the spirit of original democracy, I ask you - instead of implying citizens have no right to ask such questions, wouldn’t it be wiser to allow for and encourage open debate? If the idea that 9/11 is such a ridiculous idea as you assert, then why have so many from within US intelligence, politics, military, engineering and demolition fields, not to mention pilots and policemen, expressed their doubts about the “official story”? Admittedly they still remain in the minority, but is it really possible all these people are idiots or unpatriotic or insane? Or, could it be that something is astray in the official story and that the government investigation into 9/11 is about as trustworthy as the Warren Commission was?

You may well be right and there could be a perfectly sound explanation for all the strange anomalies surrounding the likes of Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney in relation to 9/11, but so far these explanations are still to be presented as far as I’m concerned...

After the above discussion, one of the group's moderators pointed out that I was bringing up subjects that don't relate to the main spirit of the group which is about networking between agents and other professionals in the intelligence community.

So I agreed to pull the debate (no pun there with pulling Building 7, I swear!) and also decided to leave the group itself as I was seriously outnumbered and attempting to punch above my weight with some heavy hitters!!

But I'm interested to hear feedback on these ideas and more importantly whether y'all think modern terrorism (which is essentially Islamic terrorist groups, I guess) is a major threat to the West and to Superpowers in general.

Thanks for reading guys,
James

In my opinion, the answer is no. It's not a major threat. And I work in the field (in my own small way). Its as bogus as the 'war on drugs'. Just something to keep powerful segments of the private sector receiving a steady flow of lucrative government contracts. There are other reasons, certainly--but that is the one that I personally encounter.

Keep the people in a constant state of fear and you can slowly take away their rights and freedoms while literally making a killing. McDonalds has killed more people than terrorism ever will. And the vast majority of terrorist attacks are orchestrated by well funded intelligence agencies. Create a problem then offer a solution that shifts the balance of power and money.

Lee wrote: "Keep the people in a constant state of fear and you can slowly take away their rights and freedoms while literally making a killing. McDonalds has killed more people than terrorism ever will. And t..."

Bingo.

"McDonalds has killed more people than terrorism ever will" HEAR HEAR!!!

Rachel wrote: ""McDonalds has killed more people than terrorism ever will" HEAR HEAR!!!"

:)

Lee wrote: "Keep the people in a constant state of fear and you can slowly take away their rights and freedoms while literally making a killing. McDonalds has killed more people than terrorism ever will. And t..."

I don't know about McDonald's. I like McDonald's.
That being said, I have read quite a few books that convince me the greatest terrorists on the planet are governments. My reviews cover just a tiny fraction of examples including the following.
Operation Gladio govt sponsors of Bader Meinhoff, Red Brigades, Vatican Bank/CIA money laundering, etc.
Classified Woman -- Sibel Edmunds Story
Operation Paperclip -- protection of NAZI war criminals
Trading With The Enemy -- US/NAZI businessmen trading throughout WWII with FDRs approval
The Franklin Cover-Up -- govt protection of child trafficking
Other Losses -- Eisenhower's starving a million defenseless POWs after WWII
The Creature From Jeckyll Island -- How governments have hijacked free trade and the value of money itself from the outset.

And the list could go on ad infinitum. This stuff is not taught in the Prussian Derived mass indoctrination system.

Nothing like the betrayal of an operation, upsetting the rules.

i agree