Catching up on Classics (and lots more!) discussion

This is for our May buddy read of Palace Walk.

Laurie and I have just started reading. Everyone is welcome--I think we even talked Darren into it!

I'm on chapter 9, and finding this really fascinating. A unique family saga about a place I know very little about.

So I'll share some general stuff I found, incase others are also unfamiliar.

The title refers to Bayn al-Qasrayn (between the two palaces), the plaza between two former palace complexes constructed in the 10th century by the Fatimid dynasty in medieval Islamic Cairo. Bayn_al-Qasrayn was the main north-south street of Cairo and became known as the "Qasabah", the city's main street or avenue, and is now called Al-Mu'izz Street.

For anyone like me who has never been there, looking at pictures of this area really set the mood for reading.

I was unsure of the naming conventions, and found the following about the father's name, al-Sayyid Ahmad Abd al-Jawad.
al-Sayyid = an honorific (mister, lord, venerable man)
Ahamad = his given name
Abd al-Jawad = his father's name/family name.

There's an in-depth documentary about Mahfouz here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHpFI....
I just skimmed through it, but found it interesting that he champions women's rights.

I'm just now on chapter 9 so I'm going a bit slower than you, Kathleen. Thanks for the information on the naming conventions.

I'm enjoying the beginning chapters that introduce the reader to each character. The father is a man of such contradictions. He is the stern task master at home, but a fun loving joker with his friends. He honestly sees no issue with being a devout Muslim who drinks to excess every night and consorts with other women.

The wife's complete submission to her husband is hard to understand. It is an anathema to the western idea of marriage. But she is satisfied and happy with her life and that's what we all want in life. I'm eager to see where her story goes.

Hi Laurie--glad you're here. You will probably catch up and surpass me soon—I have several books on the go. I love that the chapters are short though!

About Amina’s submission, I don’t see how it could be sustained without the severe restrictions on her exposure to the world. That may be why we have trouble understanding it, because have been exposed from a young age and can’t undo our knowledge.

I’m on Chapter 15, and (view spoiler)[notice how obsessed each of the men are with sex and sensuality. Is it the restrictions on women? All the rules about it? Or just something Mahfouz likes to write about? (Have to say he does write it beautifully.) Interesting to contrast this with Amina, whose inner thoughts are mostly of religion. (hide spoiler)]

Just discovered this thread, hope to join in!

Kirsten #wearagreenribbon #hugateacher #happybirthdaymichaelpalin wrote: "Just discovered this thread, hope to join in!"

Welcome, Kirsten! (And I love Michael Palin.)

ok so I have reached a good place at which to pause Great Expectations,
which means I can start Palace Walk now!

Darren wrote: "ok so I have reached a good place at which to pause Great Expectations,
which means I can start Palace Walk now!"

Oh boy--glad you could make it work, Darren!

I had placed a hold on my library’s ebook edition of the trilogy but it didn’t look like it was going to be available anytime soon so I went ahead and ordered it — and it’s scheduled to arrive tomorrow! =D

I'm glad to see Darren and Erin joining us. I've just finished chapter 15 so I'm still progressing slowly.

Kathleen, I agree it is interesting the (view spoiler)[difference in the men thinking about women constantly as opposed to Amina who is always thinking religious thoughts. I hated that Yasin thinks all women would indulge in adultery if they could including his step mother and she is only prevented by his father. What a degrading view of women and their morals. (hide spoiler)]

Yay Erin! I'm glad you'll be getting the book--is it the trilogy or just this first one?

I agree completely, Laurie. I'm on Chapter 21 now, and (view spoiler)[the way they treat Yasin's mother is shocking. The way the women's behavior affects the men's honor, but their own (worse) behavior does not? And it seems to be perfectly okay for Yasin to only care about his inheritance. (hide spoiler)] I'm finding it fascinating to get a window into their thought processes.

It has arrived!

Kathleen wrote: "Yay Erin! I'm glad you'll be getting the book--is it the trilogy or just this first one?

I agree completely, Laurie. I'm on Chapter 21 now, and [spoilers removed] I'm finding it fascinating to get..."

Just the first one for now — depending on how well I like it, I will buy the next two or read the library edition. My library’s digital edition is the whole trilogy which, besides not being the first person on the waiting list, decided me to buy it so I could join in the read this month. I plan to read a few chapters tonight. =)

Great, Erin!

In Chapter 21, I was curious about the contrast between (view spoiler)[how it was assumed Fahmy could never, even accidentally, have laid eyes on the neighbor girl Maryam, while his younger brother Kamal, could run over there and jump on her bed and kiss and hug her. I guess before puberty anything goes, but once you reach puberty you are expected to abruptly stop all that behavior? And I guess Fahmy did not see her at all when he was Kamal's age? (hide spoiler)]

Kathleen wrote: "Great, Erin!

In Chapter 21, I was curious about the contrast between [spoilers removed]"

I was curious about that as well. I'm not sure if (view spoiler)[ all women are as sheltered as al-Sayyid Ahmad's family is. Clearly there are women in the street because Yasin looks at them. Are those women in lower a socio-economic class? Even Maryam gets to visit the sisters but I don't think Khadija and Aisha ever go anywhere. Fahmy is apparently supposed to hide away when his sisters have visitors since he shouldn't have seen Maryam even at his house. I thought it was odd that Kamal can simply walk in his neighbor's house and walk around at will. (hide spoiler)]

Erin wrote: "It has arrived!

Kathleen wrote: "Yay Erin! I'm glad you'll be getting the book--is it the trilogy or just this first one?

I agree completely, Laurie. I'm on Chapt..."

How nice that your library has the trilogy. Mine doesn't have any of the books in paper or ebook.

Kathleen, thank you for the information on naming conventions!

Laurie, you’re right, it is fortunate that my library had it. You would think that most libraries would at least have the major works of Nobel laureate in literature, but I was disappointed to find that my library doesn’t have The Saga of Gösta Berling, for instance. Well, I am grateful for what they do have, and for ILL’s, and I keep making purchasing suggestions and have had one success so far!

I’ve just finished chapter 7 and am enjoying the book so far, most especially for the vivid depiction of the scenes and characters!

I am on chapter 42 and I'm enjoying the book still. Family drama and characters struggling with morals, personal flaws, and disappointment are depicted so well by Mahfouz. I find each character sympathetic in their own way, but I honestly don't like the father. He too easily justifies his shortcomings as morally okay while seizing on anyone else's in his family as reprehensible.He is easy on his friends and hard on his family.

I'm on Chapter 34, and have to agree with you, Laurie. The father doesn't even seem part of the family--more slave master.

I just finished chapter 21.

(view spoiler)[Amina’s subservience is uncomfortable to read and I do think that it is only how small her world has been kept that enables her to be as happy as she is in it, even as she is satisfied, even proud of her limited knowledge, not realizing how much she does not know. I do think it commendable that she is able to find joy and satisfaction in those things she is allowed and I love how she has made over the roof into a garden and refuge of life.

It is astonishing how hypocritical Ahmed is! So strict on his family while he goes out drinking, partying, womanizing every night! If only he had half as much consideration for his family as he does his friends. I started to think that maybe his first wife had cheated on him and that this was the reason for both his divorce and then his harshness to his second wife, but no. I cannot but wonder why this man who so enjoys pleasure and the love of his friends wants only cold austerity and fear from his family...

Even with all this, I was surprised by his reaction in chapter 20. I wouldn’t have been surprised if his standards were different for his sons than his daughters, but apparently he wants them all to remain celibate??? Not really, I’m sure, but what could be more traditionally wholesome than his sons wishing for a long engagement to a girl from a respectable family? (hide spoiler)]

I'm at Ch.33
the writing is excellent and the family seem so real!
I was a bit concerned about a lack of plot, but even that has thickened a bit...

I share your shock at Ahmad's behavior, Erin. I'm so glad you mentioned the roof garden--that was a high point for me too!

And I'm not usually one who minds a lack of plot, but this was feeling a little drug out to me. I'm on Chapter 47 now though, and the story is filling out a bit more as events go on in their lives.

Darren, I agree about the writing--it is superb. I think maybe my frustration with the characters is stronger because they do seem so real!

Totally agree about the superb writing too! =D Everything is so vivid and real, I’ve just been enjoying seeing the characters in their world and haven’t minded there being no main plot as of yet.

I'm on Chapter 53, and it's a real highpoint for me. (view spoiler)[Mahfouz describes how each family member reacts to the exiling of the party leader Zaghlul. Ahmad jokes and drinks to cover a never-before-felt grief. Fahmy is in a patriotic frenzy. Yasin is sad and selfish. The young Kamal tries to understand and take part, but is ignored. Amina is engaged and has similar memories, but still holds back expressing her feelings. Zaynab doesn't understand what the big deal is, since Zaghlul isn't their father or husband. It's brilliantly revealing about each one's role in society and reaction to it. (hide spoiler)]

Kathleen wrote: "I'm on Chapter 53, and it's a real highpoint for me. [spoilers removed]"

It was interesting to see the varied responses. I've googled some Egyptian history to understand better what is going on in the political situation of the time. I knew nothing of the demonstrations in the streets or the exiles of the political figures.

I am on chapter 63 and I have gotten tired of (view spoiler)[Yasin and his uncontrolled sexual urges. He doesn't feel bad about attacking either of the servants and thinks his wife is responsible for the divorce. He has become such a weak, despicable character to me. He is like his father in wanting the freedom to drink and party and have affairs without penalty or guilt. He doesn't even really care about the political situation. Fahmy is an admirable young man. He urges rebellion which I find completely understandable. He is disappointed that he isn't allowed to become engaged to Maryam but he isn't controlled by his hormones like Yasin either. (hide spoiler)]

I finished the book last night and I am eager to see what everyone else's overall impression is.

I finished now too, Laurie. Lots of thoughts about this one--pro and con!

I totally agree with your last comment. (view spoiler)[Yasin was disgusting, and that part seemed to go on and on. (hide spoiler)]

Looking forward to everyone finishing and getting everyone's reactions.

Thoughts were bouncing around my head about this last night while I was trying to sleep. :-)

What I didn't like was (view spoiler)[that so much of the middle of the book was focused on Ahmad and Yasin's "skirt-chasing" exploits. That part seemed to go on and on. I wondered if Mahfouz was living out his fantasies or something! (hide spoiler)]

What I did like was how Mahfouz was able to, especially toward the end, so believably and intricately paint (view spoiler)[the ways Ahmad's children were like him in different ways: Yassin loves drink and debauchery. Fahmy acts on his principles of nation and religion. Kamul loves music. Ahmad sees himself in each of them, but clearly wants them to “Do as I say, not as I do.” And it’s true, that what works for one generation does not work for the next. We must take our principles and adjust. (hide spoiler)]

Kathleen, my thoughts while I was reading regarding the issue you didn't like was it was so evident the book had a male author. I couldn't see a woman author (view spoiler)[ spending so much time on men's infidelity and those men justifying the infidelity in their inner thoughts. Mahfouz used the "boys will be boys" justification enough that eventually I wanted to skip those parts since they weren't moving the plot forward in any way. (hide spoiler)]

It is interesting how each child is like their father in some way. I think Khadija feels the need to take care of everyone much like Ahmad feels responsible for guiding his children. I think Aisha's similarity is her vanity or her image of herself. Her father is very concerned how he is seen in the eyes of his neighbors, although his vanity is related to being seen a strict father rather than his looks.

Just finished! Kathleen and Laurie, I agree with your observations and also appreciated Ahmad’s children in many ways reflect various aspects of him, in some cases a purer expression of that aspect, for good or ill depending on whom we’re talking about.

Regarding the issue that you have both brought up: (view spoiler)[Both Ahmad and Yasin certainly excuse and rationalize their bad behavior, but did you feel that Mahfouz was? I felt rather that he emphasized the hypocrisy and how Ahmad forbade his family even innocent joys like music while he indulged in illicit ones. If I felt that Mahfouz was approving of the characters’ actions, it would have upset and disgusted me too. Indeed, I was upset and disgusted, most especially by Yasin for his extreme self-centeredness and complete lack of empathy for either his wife or mother despite any of his discoveries or experiences. Likewise I was shocked and appalled that rather than being severely punished for his assault as he should have been, Yasin was merely scolded and then rewarded with a wife! I did not get the impression that Mahfouz or we the readers were meant to agree with the views and actions of all the characters. At least that is how I felt throughout the novel, even as I got mad at the characters and may have even wished Yasin would have gotten beaten with shoes! (hide spoiler)]

So glad you enjoyed it, Erin!

I love that you mentioned the daughter's traits, Laurie. I didn't feel like I got to know them as well as the sons, but you make great points about their personalities.

And I agree with you both about the author. (view spoiler)[As Laurie says, I'm don't think a female author would have spent as much time on the infidelity. But I also agree with you Erin, that Mahfouz wasn't condoning the behavior of his characters. What bothered me was that he spent so much of the book on it, and even more, the way it was intertwined with religion in a way that made my skin crawl. I think it's very possible that Mahfouz wanted my skin to crawl? And yes, it would have been fun to see Yasin beaten with shoes. :-)

I'm hoping that the sequels will give us more about how all of this has impacted Amina, and maybe some character development of Ahmad and Yasin. I also wanted to follow the daughters into their married life and see more what that was like. What did you think about their husbands, just being described as lazy? There's got to be more there, and I'm curious. (hide spoiler)]

Kathleen wrote: "So glad you enjoyed it, Erin!

I love that you mentioned the daughter's traits, Laurie. I didn't feel like I got to know them as well as the sons, but you make great points about their personalitie..."

Those are good points and I do agree that certain aspects of characters were focused on more than what I felt contributed to characterization and plot while there were other characters whom I regretted not being able to continue further with. (view spoiler)[I would love to have followed Aisha and Khadija into their married lives too! I have the impression that the Shawkat house is lead by its matriarch and I hope her influence may cause her sons to be more respectful of their wives. It does seem that Khalil truly cares for Aisha and is more concerned with her well-being than what other people think, or at least that is how I would like to interpret his insistence on bringing a doctor. I hope that we will learn more about their household in the next books! (hide spoiler)]

I believe the next book in the trilogy takes place about 6-7 years later. I think Kamal will be a quite a handful as a young teenager. Hopefully we will see more of the daughters and their families .