The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

We continue with Evelina’s adventures in London, and her acquaintance with her city relatives, Sir Clement, Lord Orville, and others. What do you think of the book so far?

Do you think the captain pushed Monsieur Du Bois?

What are Lord Orville’s and Sir Clement Willoughby’s intentions in visiting so often? We know a bit of Sir Clement’s intentions, but what about Lord Orville?

Why is the captain so rude? Does he strike you as a realistic character, or more of a satire/stereotype?

In the night Evelina was stuck going to the opera with Madame Duval and the Branghtons, would you have made the same decisions she did, considering her position and the time period, or would you have done something different?

What is your opinion of Mr. Villars at this point? Has it changed?

This book is really entertaining.
The Captain is very opinionated and rough speaking, but comes across as more trustworthy than either Lovel or Willoughby(who could cause real trouble for Evelina). Evelina is very lucky that she wasn't taken advantage of by Willoughby when he took her off in the carriage.
Evelina seems to be tongue-tied a lot and totally unable to speak up for herself. This timidity does not bode well.
Lord Orville is the perfect gentleman!

The captain seems to me based on literary types (as someone suggested in the previous week's thread, a type found in the theater), but he's also recognizable to me as the sort of guy who gained his status in high school from cracking wise. Convinced he's clever, turning everything into a joke, enjoying the discomfiture of others, potentially a bully. Yes, I believe the captain pushed Monsieur Du Bois.

I'm enjoying seeing the commonalities between this Willoughby and Jane Austen's Willoughby in Sense and Sensibility. Don't want to say more and spoil S&S for anyone who hasn't read it.

I'm glad that as we finish this section, we're leaving London for the time being. The incidents were becoming a little repetitive for me.

It's interesting to me that the more gentlemanly characters (male and female--those concerned with behaving appropriately) are so passive and helpless in the face of the misbehaving characters. Villars, Orville, Mrs. Mirvan, Evelina herself, all seem to be paralyzed in the face of the audacious offensiveness of the other characters. I guess there wouldn't be much story if they were more capable of fighting off the antagonists' encroachments, but it makes them pretty frustrating.

Abigail wrote: "I'm glad that as we finish this section, we're leaving London for the time being. The incidents were becoming a little repetitive for me."

Yes, there was quite a bit of repetition, which started to bug me after a while. I was also expecting Mrs. Mirvan to protect Evelina more.

At least she tried a little harder in this section! Not so much with Willoughby's encroachments, but at least with Madame Duval.

I do understand Evelina's tongue-tied response when she is in an odd situation, and remember that experience as a young girl. Let's hope she becomes more articulate with experience. This section did get quite repetitive, with all the vying for Evelina going on among Sir Clement, Mr. Lovel, the unknown lord, and Lord Orville, in addition to her new family. How embarrassing to have to admit that they are her family to her new acquaintances! Still, this is an engrossing read.

In letter XXII

'[Lord Orville] then proceeded to tell her, that he had waited on Mr. Lovel the morning after the play; that the visit had proved an amicable one, but the particulars were neither entertaining nor necessary; he only assured her, Miss Anville might be perfectly easy, since Mr. Lovel had engaged his honour never more to mention, or even hint at what had passed at Mrs. Stanley's assembly.'

And it is very clear that Evelina grasps the import of this meeting.

'Had I known of this visit previous to Lord Orville's making it, what dreadful uneasiness it would have cost ! . . . But how cool, how quiet is true courage. Who from seeing Lord Orville at the play, would have imagined his resentment would have hazarded his life?'

I think that by Burney's day gentlemen no longer routinely carried swords (except for serving officers), but an affront to honour could well entail a duel - coffee and pistols for two, or rather pistols for two, coffee for one. And Evelina is obviously flattered that a nobleman like Lord Orville would risk his life for her.

Yes, we don't see many duels in the Victorian novels we usually read in here (with the exception of a certain Victorian-era Irishman of Trollope's). It's interesting to see the differences between the two centuries.

I agree with the prevailing opinion that Evelina’s London mishaps were becoming a bit repetitive and the arguing between the Captain and Madam Duval a bit tiresome.

I hate to admit it but I’m sure I would have made the same exasperating mistakes in the same situation. Even though I cringe at her continuing to do so, Evelina does seem to happen into situations beyond her control and react with what seems a plausible option only to realize in hind sight she’s dug herself a deeper hole. Ah, youth. I most certainly would never return to it!

I was quite surprised by one of Evelina’s comments in Letter 18 that,
“I could almost kill myself for having given him the shadow of a reason for so shocking an idea.”
The comment seemed such a modern expression of embarrassment. I would have thought that the scandal of suicide at that time would prevent someone using the phrase so casually. But I guess being a hyperbolic teenager never changes.

Jenny wrote: "But I guess being a hyperbolic teenager never changes."

Haha, yes! And I'm sure I'd have made many of the same mistakes in her position.

So far, I'm finding this book soothing and entertaining. Soothing because--manners matter? I guess I haven't read much from this time period during the last few years. So delightful! I want to read ahead, but don't trust my memory well enough to keep everything straight later on.

Despite his evil qualities, I found myself warming up to the Captain during this second week of reading. As Evelina's protector, he is a bit like a blunt instrument: smashing everything within range, and possibly not even meaning to protect Evelina although, to a certain extent, he does. Madame Duval is clearly a threat to Evelina, and the Captain's animosity toward her works, at times, in Evelina's favor.

I am frustrated with Evelina herself for not immediately reporting the incident of the misdirected vehicle either to him, or his wife. She does report by post to Mr. Villars, but never to those in a position to be of immediate help. This is a massive omission, and her reasoning makes me feel a little sick. The perpetrator here, Sir Clement--in finest sexual predator tradition--skillfully enlists her complicity in concealing what he has done, and she seems to consider herself honor-bound to maintain silence; despite the fact that her promise of silence has only been elicited as a condition of release from captivity. Evelina is so naïve; she does not owe anything to this man, least of all her silence.

I like your analysis of the dynamics of that scene, Alice! It is chilling.

Yes. His external, physical aggression (misdirecting the vehicle) is bad enough. But reaching into her mind and manipulating her thinking, and consequent action, takes this to another level.

Yes, Sir Clement is horrible (and I think he's all the more horrible because most women - and some men, I'm sure - know someone like him).

I’ve also been wondering about the role of Miss Mirvan in all of this. It seems like the natural thing would be to confide in one’s best friend, particularly when living with that friend; but very little is revealed of their relationship. I suppose it might not be interesting enough for Evelina to write home about; but I wonder how much she has actually shared and discussed with her friend. If nothing—why not? Are Evelina and Miss Mirvan actually as close as we are, at first, led to believe? Has something come between them? Are they now competitors? How much does Miss Marvan actually know about what is happening to Evelina?

I don't know how much Evelina share with the Mirvan ladies, but they don't seem to be bothered much about what does happen to Evelina.

I think in Burney’s time children, even older children, had much more formal relationships with their parents than our norm today. And Evelina is regarded as an adult so far as society is concerned. She can go to parties, accept or refuse offers of marriage, and of course find herself the target of seducers.

In the books we've read, we haven't seen young women dish about guys, whether with friends, sisters, or parents, unless he was an acknowledged lover. I got the impression it was considered improper for a young woman to acknowledge feelings for a man until he said something. But she really should have told the Mirvans what Sir Clement did. They could have kept him out of the house.

My main thoughts while reading were:
1) After a surprisingly entertaining first week, count me with the many here who found that this week's reading got a bit tedious. There were some entertaining events, usually in the travel to and from the events, but the overall feeling was samo samo. I agree with Abigail that a change of scenery was needed.
2) I too wondered why Mrs Mirvan didn't act in Evelina's behalf more, and why Miss Mirvan seemed to disappear in this section.
3) The failure to act as a protector also made me wonder about Mr. Villars a bit. At the beginning he seemed to want to distance Evelina from her grandmother yet he isn't acting now that he knows Madame Duval is ordering Evelina around. As he is the only one with more legal rights over Evelina than her, he ought to get out there himself and face Madame Duval.

I don’t think he actually does have any legal rights over Evelina, though he did over her mother. No mention was made of her making any arrangements for her child before she died in childbirth; and as the father doesn’t acknowledge Evelina, her status pretty much fell through the cracks.

Abigail wrote: "I don’t think he actually does have any legal rights over Evelina, though he did over her mother."

Thanks, I wasn't clear about that. So at best he's kind of a common law guardian in contrast to Madam Duval's grandparent status.

Sadly, yes. I thought what you thought at first and had to go back to realize I was conflating mother and daughter.

I was also struck by the sentence

"I could almost kill myself for having given him the shadow of a reason for so shocking an idea.”

as very modern and teenager-like. As far as Evelina not speaking up and being coerced by so many people, I don't think it's unrealistic. I am very outspoken and argumentative now, but as a young person, I was shy and would go along with things I wasn't happy about so as not to upset people, or I would feel that somehow it was my fault I ended up in an uncomfortable situation. And we know how sheltered Evelina has been. Everyone in London keeps telling her she is a country bumpkin, almost like gaslighting, so she doesn't trust her own reactions or judgments. And it's probably true that when a man and woman were in a compromising situation, like driving around in a carriage a long time, the woman would be judged and blamed more than the man.

Robin wrote: "I was also struck by the sentence

"I could almost kill myself for having given him the shadow of a reason for so shocking an idea.”

as very modern and teenager-like. As far as Evelina not speakin..."

Yes, all of this. :-)

Alice wrote: "I’ve also been wondering about the role of Miss Mirvan in all of this. It seems like the natural thing would be to confide in one’s best friend, particularly when living with that friend; but very ..."

I can't help but wonder if Evelina has simply been too socially successful to make her friendship with Miss Mirvan quite easy. No doubt this was a trip planned to introduce Miss Mirvan into society, and Evelina was probably invited along as a companion (at her hosts' expense) and she has clearly become the target of all the eligible young men's attention. While no one has been unkind, which speaks well for the Mirvan's genuine affection for Evelina, I can't imagine that the situation isn't a bit uncomfortable at the moment, and I feel somewhat sorry for Miss Mirvan who clearly pales in comparison to her lovely friend.

Alice wrote: "Yes. His external, physical aggression (misdirecting the vehicle) is bad enough. But reaching into her mind and manipulating her thinking, and consequent action, takes this to another level."

Yes, I was quite alarmed by his actions and her subsequent feeling that she must keep his secret-although I also wondered if she might feel her reputation was at risk for having been alone with and under the protection of a man to whom she was not related. By contrast, Lord Orville had offered to send her home in his carriage while he would take a chair himself.

I also didn't understand why no one stood up to Mme Duval when she marched in expecting Evelina to cancel a previous engagement and go with her-that would seem to be the height of bad manners! Fortunately she got her comeuppance when it was clear that her family's social standing was so far below that of the Mirvans, who were sitting in the pit-the whole episode of wandering around trying to find cheaper tickets was quite funny, if not so cringingly embarrassing for poor Evelina.

I also wasn't clear on the significance of dress and hats depending on where you would be sitting.

It sounded as if Evelina and the Mirvans were dressed in evening clothes and the Branghtons were in daytime clothes, suitable only for the cheap seats. I can remember when this type of distinction of dress was maintained at the Metropolitan Opera in New York. For the boxes (and maybe other luxury seats), black tie for men and full-length evening dresses for women were expected. This was in the early 1980s; I don't know what practices apply today because like Captain Mirvan, I hate opera!

Mr. Villars seems to be less and less the strong support that Evelina needs. He has basically backed out of the struggle and hid behind Lady Howard and family who are now the main opposition to Madame Duval. Because the Mirvans did a pretty poor job of protecting Evelina in London I don’t expect Lady Howard to be much better out in the country. The fact that Sir Clement has been given an open invitation to visit by Captain Mirvan means that Evelina will be attacked on two fronts. No doubt the good Lord Orville will make an appearance but his handling of the return from the opera was pathetic to say the least.
Sir Clement has managed to carry off Evelina twice so far in order to be left alone with her. I thought all young unmarried women at this time had to be chaperoned and certainly not allowed to ride home alone in a carriage with a man. Lord Orville could easily have pulled rank on Sir Clement and insisted that Evelina went home in his carriage whilst he took a chair. Is there some sort of conspiracy going on between him and Sir Clement?
It is almost unbelievable that Evelina would not tell anyone about Sir Clement’s antics in the carriage, even if it were only Miss Mirvan. Is there a dangerous friendship developing between Captain Mirvan and Sir Clement that could put Evelina at an even greater risk in the future?

To do justice to Mr. Villars, he must by this time be extremely old. He was tutor to Evelina's grandfather and therefore had to be at least a few years older than her grandfather. There is mention in one of the early letters that he was ill for a time, so presumably he's not up to undertaking sudden journeys.

As for Evelina not saying anything about Sir Clement's behavior, that is perfectly understandable to me for reasons others have already given--she would suffer more reputation all damage than he would, he used psychological manipulation (as most sexual predators do) on a young and socially insecure person, victims of sexual harassment often hide the fact out of a sense of shame. In those days as even in these, the first question asked is usually "What did you do to bring this on yourself?" And Evelina knows she did, albeit unintentionally, put herself in a vulnerable position. Yes, she should have accepted Lord Orville's offer, but Sir Clement was threatening to make a big scene over it and she was trying to avoid that. I can't remember whether this was before or after Lord Orville had done whatever he did to get Mr. Lovel off her back, but regardless, she would shrink from being argued over, which would lead to gossip about her.

Abigail wrote: "To do justice to Mr. Villars, he must by this time be extremely old. He was tutor to Evelina's grandfather and therefore had to be at least a few years older than her grandfather. There is mention ..."

My point is that Evelina should never have got into a carriage alone with a man, any man not in her family or her guardian, as that was against the convention of the time. She was doing her reputation far more damage in doing that than worrying about a squabble between Lord Orville and Sir Clement. Even if she didn’t realise the protocol, Lord Orville certainly would have and he should have pointed it out. Why didn’t Orville invite Sir Clement into his carriage so that Evelina could be driven home alone as societal convention required?

It seemed an obvious ploy by Sir Clement to prolong the journey and one that his coach staff were probably used to. I am surprised that Sir Clement was so lenient with Evelina once he had her in the coach unable to escape from his clutches. Maybe he didn’t expect such a response from Evelina or is he just biding his time? Why were the Mirvan’s not absolutely appalled that Evelina ended up travelling alone with Sir Clement? As Evelina’s protectors by allowing this to happen they had committed gross negligence. Lord Orville must have known what type of man Sir Clement was and yet he allowed Evelina to go off with him. I am beginning to have serious doubts about Lord Orville’s motives as well as Sir Clements.

Perhaps Burney is trying to make a statement about the necessity of these strict protocols to protect women? This is a supposed civilized London gentleman who is intent on compromising Evelina’s reputation and preying on her innocence. There’s a pointed contrast between the image of London as more cultured, prosperous and ideal than the country, and the reality that it is from this very element that the danger appears.

Today we are used to the idea that predatory men come from all walks of life. And men are still using the protection of their high status to attack the weak and naive. But at the time of this writing there was perhaps still a surprising and contradictory factor in this truth which Burney is quietly trying to highlight?

Clearly Mr Villars is already aware of this and fears it. But at some point young ladies in all ages have had to find it out the hard way for themselves. No amount of protection seems to be enough.

I’ve consulted three different print editions and all renumber the letters in each volume. The dates also disagree with the reading schedule. What edition is the based on?

I have the complete works, and they number the letters straight through (not sure if there were volume divisions, but they didn't renumber the letters). If you give me a bit, I can put the first lines of each letter in the reading schedule.
What do you mean about the dates?

I have the complete works, and they number the letters straight through (not sure if there were volume divisions, but they didn't renumber the letters). If you give me a bit, I can put the first lines of each letter in the reading schedule.
What do you mean about the dates?

https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Franc...

Thanks Lori-mine also renumbers the chapters in each volume so even just the first line of each new section would be a big help.

The first lines of each section are now up. Hope that helps!

Thank you for the opening lines. No problem with the dates - I’d confused our reading schedule dates with the dates of the letters.

Just finished this section. Like many of you, I started to find this section tedious which was a bit disappointing, hoping the next section with the change of place helps. Everybody has already covered the thoughts that have gone through my mind.

It's actually not clear to me how much chaperoning was expected in the 18th century. I thought I had read somewhere that it was then less obligatory than in the Victorian era? At any rate, it sounds like Evelina could have used one. Sir Clement is a predator. But as usual, no one seems to care.