Reading the Detectives discussion

Welcome to our July 2020 challenge book - the seventh Inspector Adam Dalgliesh series, published in 1986, more than a decade after the previous book, 'Death of an Expert Witness,' which was published in 1977.

This was a very successful novel and nominated for several awards:
Macavity Award for Best Mystery Novel (1987), Grand Prix de Littérature Policière for Romans étrangers (tie) (1988), CWA Silver Dagger for Fiction (1986), Edgar Award Nominee for Best Novel (1987), Palle Rosenkrantz Prisen (1987).

Many suggest this was P.D. James best mystery. In a 1986 book review for The New York Times, Robert B. Parker wrote the book is "graced by one of the most felicitous prose styles I know. Ms. James is simply a wonderful writer." The Sunday Times called it "A cunningly compulsive work... heart-pounding suspense". In a 1986 piece on James by Julian Symons, he notes A Taste for Death "is the longest, most ambitious and the best of Phyllis James's 10 novels." It will be interesting to see whether we agree!

Two men lie in a welter of blood in the vestry of St Matthew's Church, Paddington, their throats brutally slashed. One is Sir Paul Berowne, a baronet and recently-resigned Minister of the Crown, the other an alcoholic vagrant. Dalgliesh and his team, set up to investigate crimes of particular sensitivity, are faced with a case of extraordinary complexity as they discover the Berowne family's veneer of prosperous gentility conceals ugly and dangerous family secrets.

Please feel free to post spoilers in this thread.

I really liked the beginning, and thought it had me hooked. The concept of the story was very good, however, I then had suspicions that James really wanted to be a letting agent and not an author. The descriptions of architecture of all the buildings went on for far too long, followed each time by the furnishings of everywhere, giving the impression she was trying to get me to rent the furnished buildings. I don't mind a short description to set the scene but this went overboard. I also think James must have been obsessed with windows, as just about every window and it's view, together with the curtains were described. This made the book drag for me but I carried on and was pleased I did, as towards the end the story really picked up, and made it feel more like a detective mystery and less like a sales pitch.

Jill, we like different things. About halfway through this, I made a note that good novels have conflict and this is a good novel that just happens to also fall in the mystery genre. I found the conflict to be between the family and others who were a part of Berowne's life and Dalgliesh and his squad.

I did think I had the mystery solved early. The last 100 pages or so was more thriller and much faster-paced.

Authors Note;

My apologies are due to the inhabitants of Campden Hill Square for my temerity in erectinga Sir John Soane house to disrupt the symmetry other terraces and to the Diocese of London for Providing, surplus to pastoral requirements, a Sir Arthur Blomfield basilica and its campanile on the banks of the Grand Union Canal. Other places described are recognizably part of London ...

Since I have no knowledge of London and its neighborhoods, none of this bothered me - not to mention that I've never heard of Sir John Soane. But apparently some of you who *are* familiar are trying to find James' inspiration.

I love all the descriptions of interiors. I don't try to pick them apart. It's sort of like those of you who don't like Dalgliesh. For me, he just is. Same with some of these descriptions. This is the way James presents her setting. It just is.

I'll just add that this is novel. It is not nonfiction. But for me, the setting is realistic. As to people not displaying real paintings on their walls ... we see regular people on the Antiques Road Show with real paintings, sometimes very valuable ones, showing up and getting appraisals. They have them on their walls at home.

It did feel to me that P D James was trying for literary crime in this novel.

I have paintings, Elizabeth. Not ones that will raise any money, sadly, but I like them :)

Susan wrote: "It did feel to me that P D James was trying for literary crime in this novel.

I have paintings, Elizabeth. Not ones that will raise any money, sadly, but I like them :)"

For me, it is what makes James a cut above others in the genre. I think this is what she was aiming for all along and that we've seen glimpses of it earlier - in the last one more than just a glimpse.

We have a few paintings that were done especially for my husband in exchange for his models. They're probably not ever going to be valuable - maybe not as valuable as the models they were exchanged for. ;-)

Something I like in this book is the building of the team around Dalgliesh. I thought it was interesting that Miskin and Massingham have similar concerns over caring for elderly relatives, but for most of the book they both bottle up their worries and don't discuss them with each other.

However, when they do, Kate then realises the gender divide between them - Massingham says that if there was a problem with his dad, his sister would fly over from Italy to sort things out!

With the tension between them, I did wonder if this was going to be one of those working relationships that develops into a romance, but I see James knocks that idea on the head, making it clear that Kate is not attracted to Massingham.

It would surprise me if James added a romance to any of her novels, having done with the possibility of one for Dalgliesh. But authors are only interesting if the books include surprises, so we'll see if one happens in future installments.

That reminds me, there's just a hint again in this book about Dalgliesh and Cordelia Gray - a mention of them being seen having dinner together.

And a favorite line of mine: For the first hour Berowne, with his private secretary, had dealt with official papers, while Dalgliesh, after a final perusal of the agenda, had settled down to re-read Trollope's The Way We Live Now.

Dalgliesh not only reads Trollope, he re-reads him!

I have ventured gingerly into the spoiler thread, as I haven't finished yet. Yes, I noticed that he had been spotted with Cordelia Gray, Judy, but I agree with Elizabeth - I don't think we will see a romance. I am enjoying this so far and can see why it was nominated for awards.

I think it's just a tantalising hint that there may be some kind of relationship between Dalgliesh and Cordelia Gray behind the scenes - she has been briefly mentioned in 2 or 3 of the books, but James doesn't go into any detail, just leaves us guessing!

There is a bit more about this in the massive article I linked to over in the James challenge thread, but I wouldn't advise reading that if you don't already know all about how Dalgliesh develops over the series, as the article has a lot of spoilers about the story arc.

I shall stay away from the article, Judy, as I am really enjoying this series and I would rather it unfolded naturally, but I have picked up on the hints between Dalgliesh and Cordelia Gray. Like you, I enjoyed the Cordelia Gray books and I am saddened she did not write more.

Just finished this and it's the best of PDJ's books for me so far.

I do agree with Jill over the excessive descriptions of houses, rooms and windows - after about 500 pages I started skimming these just the teensiest bit.

I also still think she's show-offy about 'culture': not just that everyone's read and has an opinion on Dalgleish's poetry but the way everyone, no matter who, is constantly reading/listening to/looking at 'literature', classical music and opera, original art. And so many characters' ability to quote at will, and their listener's ability to cap or correct them is a bit absurd. I do yearn for someone to be reading a trashy thriller while listening to Madonna!

That said, I found this completely gripping even though the murderer seemed fairly obvious from the start. As Elizabeth says, the conflict between characters drives the story - and also the conflict within characters: Berowne and Dalgleish at the start, increasingly Kate as the plot develops.

Oh, and I was interested in the way Dalgleish and Berowne are made echoes of each other and the way Dalgleish recognises himself in Berowne - his personality is building up nicely in its complexity.

For some reason I was not interested in reading Cordelia Gray, and I admit I didn't notice the reference.

We have some less than literate characters in this - Emily Wharton and Darren. And I was sorry that they didn't get together, to at least have a feel good something at the end.

There are at least 2 references in the text to the title. One is early when the forensic doctor is on the scene and Dalgliesh is thinking about his characerization. "Certainly he had a taste for death." the other is 100 or so pages later with Kate thinking. "No one joins the police without getting some enjoyment ouf exercising power. No one joins the murder squad who hasn't a taste for death."

Late, before it finally dawns on them who is the murderer, they are discussing the case. They are confused about the burning of the diary and the removal of half of the back page.

"There's one thing he could have written which it's unlikely he would have blotted immediately, and that is something that another person might well wish to destroy."

Nichols was sometimes a little slow in grasping the point, but he was never afraid to take his time. He took it now. Then he said:

"That would need three signatures, of course. It's an interesting theory, and it would certainly strengthen the motive for at least two of your suspects. ..."

I have to admit I missed entirely the import of this. I didn't know what would take 3 signatures. And then at the end I said "of course". Call me a little slow on the uptake.

Roman Clodia wrote: "Oh, and I was interested in the way Dalgleish and Berowne are made echoes of each other and the way Dalgleish recognises himself in Berowne - his personality is building up nicely in its complexity."

I thought this was interesting too - it shows us another side of Dalgliesh, as he becomes more personally involved in the case.

On Berowne, I realised I was expecting some factual explanation at the end of his religious experience and the priest glimpsing stigmata, but, unless I missed something, we don't get one - it's left unexplained. I was quite surprised by that but perhaps it is good to have an element of mystery remaining.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "There are at least 2 references in the text to the title. One is early when the forensic doctor is on the scene and Dalgliesh is thinking about his characerization. "Certainly he had a taste for de..."

Elizabeth, thank you for picking up the references in the text to the title - interesting that it describes the pathologist and police becoming accustomed to death. I was wondering if it was a quotation from somewhere, but sounds as if it is James's own wording - a ringing phrase.

Religion is unexplainable. We see what we want to see and believe what we want to believe.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Emily Wharton and Darren. And I was sorry that they didn't get together, to at least have a feel good something at the end."

One of the things that I like - though it does make the books bleak - is that PDJ refuses to give us the GA happy ending.

Whereas GA seems to see crime as an aberration which the detective 'corrects' so that by the end we're back to a safe and secure world, PDJ has a vision of instability and insecurity. There's a quotation I put in my review where Dalgleish thinks 'He had felt for the first time an adult and almost overwhelming sense of the sadness at the heart of life' (he's about 13 at the time).

I agree about poor Miss Wharton: no Darren, no faith - but a stoical intention to soldier on :(

I,too, was waiting and hoping for an explanation of the stigmata. I suppose it is left as an example of God works in Mysterious Ways, as he was a politician.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "I didn't know what would take 3 signatures."

I got it about the will (signatories having been drummed in from Christie!) - but couldn't understand what the point was about burning the diary?

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "We have some less than literate characters in this - Emily Wharton and Darren. And I was sorry that they didn't get together, to at least have a feel good something at the end...."

I was too, but I thought it might be all too realistic that Darren stopped wanting to see Miss Wharton so much once he had new foster parents and interests.

There was also the lovely author of light romantic fiction who Berowne visited (sorry, can't think of her name) - I was pleased to see that James wasn't at all sniffy about her but portrayed her positively.

Judy wrote: "There was also the lovely author of light romantic fiction who Berowne visited (sorry, can't think of her name) - I was pleased to see that James wasn't at all sniffy about her but portrayed her positively."

True, that, about Miss Grace - PDJ was kind to her.

Judy wrote: "I was too, but I thought it might be all too realistic that Darren stopped wanting to see Miss Wharton so much once he had new foster parents and interests."

How Darren's life progresses is a mixed bag. It looks as if he'll have a stable home and family, finally, only to get a leukemia diagnosis. My memory fails me in that I don't remember if by 1986 we finally had the right drugs for treating leukemia successfully.

Roman Clodia wrote: "I also still think she's show-offy about 'culture': not just that everyone's read and has an opinion on Dalgleish's poetry but the way everyone, no matter who, is constantly reading/listening to/looking at 'literature', classical music and opera, original art. And so many characters' ability to quote at will, and their listener's ability to cap or correct them is a bit absurd. I do yearn for someone to be reading a trashy thriller while listening to Madonna!

We do get the author of light romances in this one as I just mentioned (I think Miss Wharton may read her books?), but I agree in general on the cultural content, although I enjoy a lot of it. The constant capping of quotations is possibly a homage to Sayers, as Wimsey and Harriet are always doing it.

I wasn't sure what I felt about the use of the name Berowne near the end for the Shakespearean message from Kate to Alan - it's clever, but it did strike me that it seems as if the character has been called Berowne for the sake of this plot twist!

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "How Darren's life progresses is a mixed bag. It looks as if he'll have a stable home and family, finally, only to get a leukemia diagnosis. My memory fails me in that I don't remember if by 1986 we finally had the right drugs for treating leukemia successfully...."

I don't remember about the progress of drugs either, but I have the impression it is looking hopeful for Darren at the end - I think one of the characters (Massingham?) speculates on whether God could have engineered the sequence of events so that he can get cured.

Judy wrote: "The constant capping of quotations is possibly a homage to Sayers, as Wimsey and Harriet are always doing it.

I wasn't sure what I felt about the use of the name Berowne near the end for the Shakespearean message from Kate to Alan - it's clever, but it did strike me that it seems as if the character has been called Berowne for the sake of this plot twist!"

Oh nice point about Wimsey and Harriet and the quotations - though I accept it from them as it's a shared passion.

I also smirked a bit at the Berowne thing! It was quite a stretch that Alan picked up the message given that it wasn't even a Berowne who was holding them hostage. And then to be able to get through to Scotland Yard in the nick of time... :)

Wasn't Alan a Shakespearean scholar? But not being one myself, I didn't get it, nor any Berowne connection. I have to admit, Berowne as a name was annoying to me. I just called him Brown.

Roman Clodia wrote: "Judy wrote: "The constant capping of quotations is possibly a homage to Sayers, as Wimsey and Harriet are always doing it.

I wasn't sure what I felt about the use of the name Berowne near the end ..."

I don't think Alan had to think a Berowne was holding her hostage. He just had to remember that it was the case they had discussed. He did very good to catch the gap before she spoke and the call was suspicious anyway as she had already cancelled their date.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Wasn't Alan a Shakespearean scholar? But not being one myself, I didn't get it, nor any Berowne connection. I have to admit, Berowne as a name was annoying to me. I just called him Brown."

No, I think he was a librarian at a theology college, wasn't he? (I was thinking Heythrop College, University of London).

Berowne is the lead character in Love's Labours Lost - and it probably was pronounced Brown!

I have mixed feelings about this one. Dalgliesh has finally come alive for me and I like the development of his team. The plot was intricate and the characters interesting. A very good story overall.

However I was disappointed in the ending. I thought the hostage situation was out of character for the murderer (whose name I've forgotten!) and added so James could get rid of Kate's grandmother. I was certain she was doomed once she told Kate her background. Kate's need to care for her in future books (and Massingham's comments) would have gotten old fast.

I also didn't understand why Berowne accepted his death so easily. He had very little to be guilty with the nurse, none with the infiltrator. Perhaps more in the death of his wife. He certainly showed a sinful glee when his brother died.

Finally (at least for now), I worry about his son. What a terrible household to grow up in. And Lady Ursula should find another trustee soon as she is unlikely to live to his maturity.

Roman Clodia wrote: "It was quite a stretch that Alan picked up the message given that it wasn't even a Berowne who was holding them hostage. And then to be able to get through to Scotland Yard in the nick of time... :)..."

Very true, that hadn't struck me that it wasn't a Berowne holding them! And it certainly was very tight for time.

While looking up a character's name, I've just discovered that the title is a quote after all - it says so on the Wikipedia page for the novel. It is taken from a short poem by A.E. Housman:

Some can gaze and not be sick,
But I could never learn the trick.
There's this to say for blood and breath,
They give a man a taste for death.

The poem doesn't seem to have a title.

Sandy wrote: "Finally (at least for now), I worry about his son. What a terrible household to grow up in. And Lady Ursula should find another trustee soon as she is unlikely to live to his maturity.
..."

Must confess I had forgotten about Berowne's son - can you remember his name, Sandy? His situation is definitely very sad.

The killer's name is Dominic Swayne - I don't think the hostage taking seems in character for him up to that point, but I suppose the violent side to a character often only breaks out towards the end of a novel. It hadn't struck me that Kate's grandmother would die, and this came as a real shock to me, although I can see you are right it would be hard to include her caring responsibilities in another novel.

I think Berowne's son does not yet have a name - he's still in the womb.

Judy wrote: "although I can see you are right it would be hard to include her caring responsibilities in another novel"

I don't think she needed to be killed in this one. She could simply have died before the next one.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "I think Berowne's son does not yet have a name - he's still in the womb."

Sorry, I'd forgotten that - I was getting mixed up with a character in another novel!

Judy wrote: "I was getting mixed up with a character in another novel!"

You're allowed - it's probably quite common!

Thanks Elizabeth. Now I'm trying to work out which novel I was thinking of!

I did not anticipate the thriller aspect of this. I'm sure my grip on the covers was much tighter when Dominic met Darren at the canal.

Oh yes, I was also biting my nails over the Darren meeting. The hostage scenes were a bit anticlimactic for me, as it felt so out of character for Swayne.

I didn't really understand the point of Kate digging her hands into the liver... was she trying to remind Swayne of cutting the throats in the church?

Roman Clodia wrote: "Oh yes, I was also biting my nails over the Darren meeting. The hostage scenes were a bit anticlimactic for me, as it felt so out of character for Swayne.

I didn't really understand the point of ..."

Yes, I could not see the point of that

Roman Clodia wrote: "I didn't really understand the point of Kate digging her hands into the liver... was she trying to remind Swayne of cutting the throats in the church? ..."

I didn't understand about the liver either - I thought I must have missed something. I think you may be right about the reason for this.

Early on in the book, I kept expecting to find out more about the other murder victim, the tramp Harry Mack, and was rather surprised that the whole investigation seemed to focus on the Berowne murder. I think it is mentioned somewhere that one of the officers is looking into Mack's background, but that is about it. Was anyone else surprised by this?

Yes, at first it upset me that Harry Mack should be sidelined in that way and it felt like it was part of the snobbery in the book (and, perhaps, in the genre) - but PDJ turns against the Berowne family and is sympathetic to people like Mattie, Miss Wharton and Darren so it's not that.

I was half expecting Harry to have been an ex-comrade of Hugo Berowne, a former soldier fallen on hard times, but no.

The other thing that surprised me was that so many people knew about Berowne's experience in the church. It only happened, I think, a week ago, and was something momentous and private - yet it seemed to be very out there.