The Dresden Files Read-Along discussion

The fight continues! Let's talk BATTLE GROUND!

ACK! My local book store where I preordered the book didn't get them in!!!!!! I guess I'll have to get a digital version.

Half way through it. Some very interesting interactions.

Just finished and...

wait is this spoilers free or not? is not specified

Previously, discussion of the books included full discussion of the current book, just not books that were yet to come. Since there are no books currently in print that come after this one, I'm assuming the discussion is intended to allow spoilers.

Jeanie wrote: "I'm assuming the discussion is intended to allow spoilers.."
Well the other books have threads for spoiler or no spoilers.
But I'll take your word for it.
Anyway

SPOILER ALERT





Murphy!!! Whyyyyyyyyyy???? :'(
I know in the previous book death flags were thrown out everywhere but still to go out like that... come on!
Sanya and Butters really get MVP.

And Marcone as a Black Denarius?! What? :O
How did Marcone accept after what they did to him?

I totes guessed about Murphy. My cats are no doubt still annoyed with my cries of noooooo Murphy though.

I can see Marcone putting aside what they did to him to accept a coin if he thought that would be most beneficial to him. Doubt he will forget it though.

I agree. I think he'd want payback for that torture, which is why Skin Game. But he probably had already accepted that coin before he and the Archive were rescued. He just hid it. And now we KNOW he's gotta go. He's no longer a semi-bad guy.

Yeah, Murphy being shot by Rudolph was just WRONG! She was proving to Dresden that she could still take the field too. But they both underestimated the danger of Rudolph's kind of weakness to deadly effect.

We've also lost Thomas for the foreseeable future. Justine was possessed, as predicted in many threads.

And Hendricks! The Einhenjaren can't return until they been forgotten by everyone who knew them in life. Does that mean Nathan will never leave Valhalla as long as Sigurn continues to exist? It sure means Murphy's not going to be able to fill that hole in Harry's chest.

And Holy matrimonial machinations Batman! Mab wants Harry to MARRY Lara?! In one breath she says she'll be doing the defiance dance with Dresden 'to the end of time' and the next she's suggesting a union that would, essentially, be asking him to commit suicide! Well, he and Lara do have a few common goals now. Find Justine. Try to extract Nemesis and save her and/or the baby. Find a way to save Thomas. Fidelacchious hasn't been tried yet. But will he want to come back if Justine and his child are gone?

Butters! Totally redeemed himself, for now. But did I see Esperacchious destroyed?! Will Sanya take up Amorachhius now?


Wild Bill and Yoshimo coming back as Black Court thralls? Or worse? Where is Chandler? And will Rudolph pay for killing Murphy? Or is that too much pain even for Harry to bear? And the whole White Council thing, especially the break with Carlos- Arrgh. Now we wait!

Yeah I can see Marcone doing that but the Fallen Angel working with the other courts? Hmmm, strange.
But during Peace Talks I thought it strange that the Black Denarians were missing, was expecting that they would appear to wreck shit up at any time. What is their objective after all? Even if they are Fallen Angels does that put them against Creation? Also got kinda pissed that Marcone with a few years of practice can do more magic than Dresden. Yes I know, he has the Magic Denarius. But the previous host had centuries to practice and Marcone in so little time puts up that show... OP pls nerf.

Another thought. Harry says that the Titan is not the biggest Bad in Demonreach. Then what the hell is and how did they manage to imprison it??

Poor Justine. And we finally see the second Walker. But even the Big Bad Outsider is afraid of Alfred. hehe


And finally really think the White Council didn't think things trough. I mean Dresden is a kinda of a big deal now, has one of the most powerful weapons ever and instead of tryig to play nice with him just cast him off and turn him into an enemy... not smart dudes... not smart at all. Even if they are regularly dumb this seems to be a Black council play.

Will Marcone become a coin collector and do a better job of securing them than the Church has? That would be one way for Marcone to get even with the ones who hurt him. The fact that he was holding one of the coins does take away a little from what seemed to be the ballsyest move of anyone at the meeting when Marcone walked up to Ethniu.

Alright, Let's get in to this.

1. Marcone didn't accept the coid before he was rescued because Thorned namshiel was still alive right up till the end of that rescue attempt. But, Jim did plan it way back then because Magog and namshiel were the only two coins not in people or in the bag at the end of the fight. Harry gave magog to sasha and namshiel was supposed to be in the hand that mysteriously disappeared from Marcone's helicopter between the island and the mainland. So he probably accepted it shortly thereafter.

2. Hendrick's acquaintance with sigrund shouldn't affect this as she is not mortal. If the Valkyrie could affect this calculus no einharjar would ever come back.

3. funny enough the marriage wouldn't be suicide for harry at this point. As evidenced by the fact that Laura is wearing gloves around harry right now. I'm curious to see how Mab is going to get around that to "Join the Bloodline". Frankly, I don't think that mab has any intention of them actually getting married. She just wants the appearance of unity that the engagement give her. And additionally, she wanted to put a roadblock in the path of Molly's inevitable pursuit of Harry.

4. I too had the initial reaction to the whole throwing it in the fire thing with Esperacchious. But, no, that would not have done the trick, it takes a lot more than standard fire to destroy a normal sword and it would have to be a lot more than normal conditions to destroy a sword of faith I'm guessing. I think the titan just threw it in there to eliminate the blood or remove it from the immediate conflict.

5. The nickelheads are only rarely of one mind on anything. Even with the small favor caper they were all doing things for different reasons. And with the Skin game episode both of the two largest factions are recovering from major losses. I'm guessing they are not quite up to world domination right now.

6. I agree that the ejection of harry from the white council was a bit of a bonehead move. But, really, what choice do they have at this point. With all the ties and allies he has collected, not to mention the weapons they know he has, he can no longer be controlled to any worthwhile extent. Also, because he has so many allies they cannot attack him directly to balance the power inbalance. So, the only way they can act to neutralize what is a threat to them is to put him out in the cold and hope his enemies take him out. And let's not mince words, Harry is absolutely a threat to them now. they have done too much to piss him off over the years for them to think he will act with restraint. And though he is still no match for many of them in a stand up fight. He absolutely is the most powerful wizard in the world right now in terms of his aggregate power in his place of power.

7. and lastly, let's not take away from Marcone the absolute titanium stones award. Fallen angel in his head or not, ethnu could have squashed him lke a bug. I am no less impressed . after all, he is basically just a really knowledgable wizard with a little more resilience. Wizards are powerful when they can prepare, normal otherwise.


I too had to take a few minuts to fight off the tears for Murph. Though that was an unfortunate inevitability of the series. That passage was right up there with Ms. Demeter's kid getting shot in terms of yanking the tears.

And lastly (I really mean it this time) is anyone else getting the feeling that Mab is training Harry to to be an Oberon type character?

Judeu wrote: "Yeah I can see Marcone doing that but the Fallen Angel working with the other courts? Hmmm, strange.
But during Peace Talks I thought it strange that the Black Denarians were missing, was expecting..."
Isn't that the 3rd Walker? He Who Walks Behind, He Who Walks Before and now, He Who Walks Beside. Haven't gone on a text search yet. That's just my recollection.

Caryl wrote: "I agree. I think he'd want payback for that torture, which is why Skin Game. But he probably had already accepted that coin before he and the Archive were rescued. He just hid it. And now we KNOW h..."

I had a tin hat epiphany today. Chandler is in the parallel universe. That's a good enough excuse for Harry to cross over and a way he finds out about said universe.

Judeu wrote: "Yeah I can see Marcone doing that but the Fallen Angel working with the other courts? Hmmm, strange.
But during Peace Talks I thought it strange that the Black Denarians were missing, was expecting..."
He's also a great big target now. Bigger than before because he has lost White Council 'protection' though it was only their reputation that afforded any protection and that was really ephemeral.

We need an official list of named characters who died.

We know Murphy and Hendricks are gone. But of the White Council, we know two might become undead and Chandler is elsewhere, but any others for certain?

I need some clarification on Justine. I think we learned she was possessed pretty much from the get go, right? So how does the not touching someone who is in love work when it was a set up? To be honest, I've never fully understood how love hurts WC vamps and how Thomas and Justine got around it, so my own confusion is hampering my understanding of the Justine issue.

Jeanie wrote: "I need some clarification on Justine. I think we learned she was possessed pretty much from the get go, right? So how does the not touching someone who is in love work when it was a set up? To be h..."
I've been trying to reconcile the love block thing with Justine and Thomas too.

The best I can explain it is as thus:
1. Performing a mutual, soul-deep, Act of Love with someone else mingles your soul with that person. This can be as simple as making love or as complex as a gift of the magi type thing. Usually it has been represented as sex in the books.
2. That sharing of souls in the act of love and an ongoing tie of love creates a flavor of love to your soul.
3. When White vamps feed they are drawing upon your soul energy as sustenance for their Phage.
4. the energy of Love is the equivalent of battery acid for the phage. So when they feed on soul energy that has been tainted with Love it poisons/hurts them.

This, of course, brings up the question of how Thomas is living with the same love flavor to his soul but I'm assuming that the phage doesn't feed on it's host.

Now, Justine had this effect before the walker got in to her as the walker indicated that it did not infect her until she had already gotten close to Laura which would have been after she recovered from the near fatal feeding that caused the bond.

We can assume from previous indications that the nemisis infection doesn't actually have any affect on the core being of the person affected becuase Leah was cured and returned to her previous self. And Cat Sith still had to follow the commands of Harry. It just overwhelms them to one extent or another and Justine was never all that strong willed. It might actully be the reason why Justine suddenly became sane-ish all of a sudden.

So, her soul is still in tact and she can still form soul bonds if she is acting from intentions of love.

For the answer to how Thomas and Justine are handling the poison caused by their mutual love, read the last few chapters of Gost story.

finished reading, here are some thoughts:
1) I don't know if I'm spoiled or not, but the horror scene sequence was kinda lame. A bloodied crib? that's what you give us?
To see true horror, check out George RR Martin's High Stakes - he has a town that is ripping itself into shreads - for a book, it gave me nightmares - including a scene with a mob of infected humans eating a baby...
I don't know - I guess Butcher is not much into horror, which is good - but trying to show the horror of the war was... kina week...
I also didn't cry when Murphy died. I tend to cry whenever a character I like is upset, but this time I was just going - is this the best way to say goodbye to one of the major characters in the series? At least this one Harry didn't kill himself like he did Susan - now that scene packed an emotional punch.
Jim Butcher - you're slipping...

2) regarding Marcone and Thorned Nemeshiel - remember why some of the denarians go by the human name and some by the name of the fallen - but this time Nemeshiel got more than he bargined for.
Also - this gives more weight to my theory that Marchone is the one Harry needs to beat at the end of the series, not Nicodimus.

3) Regarding Justine - Nemesis is not white court vampire, Love is not his kryptonite, but we know the relations between Thomas and Justine - she goes and has meaningless sex with someone else, and then she loses the True Love protection and he can feed from her. This raises another question - is Thomas or Lara infected with Nemesis too? Where did Justine catch it and who did she transfere it to next...

4) The White Council kicked Harry out, but the Gray Council has non WC members (the 13 that showed up in Chichen Itze were also a sidhe and at least 1 god) - those guys don't much care for Harry either, but they may help a little. Anyway - 6 months after, Harry is still alive and well - whoever is after him is being extra cautious.

5) The Librarians sound interesting - Men In Black - maybe part of the Oblivion war? The supernatural creatures fear mortals, I wonder if those guys have something to do with the reason for that.

Gotta say - not my favorite book - but I guess every long series has its low points as well as the high ones.

I kinda wondered months ago if Murphy might become an Einhenjaren, but now that it’s apparently happened, I’m kinda like... she’s Catholic. Was she offered the opportunity to go to the heaven she would have expected, provided it exists in the Dresdenverse? Or to work with her father in the between-world? And she’s a fighter, but she’s been doing it to protect Chicago — not for the sheer love of violence. And the Einherjaren are mercenaries. Is she really going to want to spend eternity working as a mercenary for people like Marcone? This doesn’t seem like the afterlife she’d have chosen for herself, especially if she can’t take part any longer in this conflict because there are still people who know her. And what are the chances of her ever seeing her family again — i mean it’s not like they’re likely to wind up in Valhalla. Even if she does have problems with them.

And I’m guessing there’s some sort of “no fraternization between Einherjaren and Valkyries” given Gard’s reaction, because otherwise Hendricks is on ice for, possibly, eternity.

And that whole “Rudy will answer to mortal authority “ thing is a crock. Even if he confessed — unlikely — there’s no body. No forensics or ballistics. Murphy wasn’t a cop anymore; she was booted in disgrace. And the only witnesses are a con man who says he’s a wizard who’s been suspected of murder in the past; an ME who was forced to go to a shrink for saying he had “non-human humanoids” in the morgue; and a Russian.

I wondered about a coin when Mab took her hand off Marcone’s arm, and I assume he thinks he can run the show like Nicodemus does with Anduriel, and I guess he figured he needed the juice to remain the Baron, but ... this isn’t going to work out well for him. Of course it’s probably a lot easier to give up a coin than to get rid of the Winter mantle. Maybe Marcone will wind up the third Knight! 😂

First impressions before reading anyone else’s posts:

1/ Oh my god THAT WAS AWESEOME!
…ahem. Well it was.

2/ Soulgaze on a kraken and scaring the crap outa it. Makes me think the whole “having a soul” or not concept is a lot more slippery.

3/ Lacuna is a Tooth Faerie.

4/ Accidently creating a massive faerie circle out of millions of Little Folk probably made more of an impression than Harry expected on the Accorded world.

5/ A random normie knowing Mouse’s name? Wut? Also, What? =D

6/ Drakul was starborn, and so is Listen. That’s… not a good sign. And if it was Drakul last time, and Merlin before that, concurrent with the White Christ before that, and someone fighting in the Trojan War before that – going all the way back to 4004BCE – this is going to be a big deal. Whatever “this” is.

7/ Rawlins being only two weeks away from retirement. Honestly I think that gives the guy a kind of reverse Plot Armour. He’s gonna be still alive. Betcha.

8/ …and poor badass Yoshimo being a Black Court vampire. Didn’t like that at all. Though she’ll make a really scary high-ranking vamp. And I also have just a little hope for Chandler only being “on ice”

9/ “Ladies and gentlemen: welcome to the heavyweight division.” I’ve waited for this for a while – since Chichén Itzá, and later the talk with Rashid – for Harry to do something that wasn’t just circumstance or Winter Knight. Standing up to the sorcery of five Black Court elders and stopping it cold.

9/ We’ve been fighting the Fomor a while now and no one has yet made a Disney joke about living “Under the Sea”

10/ Marcone using magic. This threw me – isn’t magic heritable? You get a certain amount of talent then it’s up to you to have the discipline to use it well and effectively. And I thought Marcone was pretty low down on the spectrum.

11/ Marcone using magic (2): You guys notice the way he was using it? That wasn’t sorcery; big beefy shields and blasts of power. That was subtlety and technique – ablative shielding and point to point teleportation, constructs of Will – that my friends was Wizardry.

12/ It’s funny how nobody is now sure whether or not Dresden holds the Sphere-O-Boom

13/ And lastly: Harry ends up with an honest to god fortress, with falsework wards in the same style as frickin Merlin, and in the text he describes it as a “Secondhand Castle”
That is just… charming.

Judeu wrote: "Murphy!!! Whyyyyyyyyyy???? :'( ..."
Arg! Yeah, Murphy. Dammit… Though her fall was, kinda awesome. Had she died taking out that Jotun giant thing, it’d have been somehow less sad. Sorta reminds me of that guy getting killed by a little kid in The Wire.

Judeu wrote: "Yeah I can see Marcone doing that..."
Marcone with hundreds of years’ experience? Yeash, that’ll be bad. For the next century or so I can just see him as a more superpowered version of himself. A millennium from now though… all nutty and villainous. My money says he did it in part to help him defeat Nicodemus.

Chris wrote: "... funny enough the marriage wouldn't be suicide for harry at this point."
Politically speaking it’s not exactly a bad idea. Also, it opens up things for a lot of humour as they try to weasel their way out of it. Lara is a lot more “a person” now, which is great, but then again so is Mab.

Chris wrote: "... ejection of harry from the white council was a bit of a bonehead move"
Seconded. Understandable reaction but they’re still idiots.

Yasmin wrote: "At least this one Harry didn't kill himself like he did Susan - now that scene packed an emotional punch..."
Murphy (2): I think maybe the difference is that Murphy kinda won. There was agency and choice behind the scene. Unlike Susan (bk3) she wasn’t a bystander. And from a story perspective, getting all angsty and sad wouldn’t have had the same impact for me as… you know, blinding murderous villainy.

Yasmin wrote: "The Librarians sound interesting - Men In Black."
Ah, another one I’d forgotten. We now know who destroyed the loup-garou videotape.

Lillicat wrote: "Maybe Marcone will wind up the third Knight!"
Oh god, can you imagine! That would suck so much. Jim should totally do that!

Lillicat wrote: "I kinda wondered months ago if Murphy might become an Einhenjaren, but now that it’s apparently happened, I’m kinda like... she’s Catholic. Was she offered the opportunity to go to the heaven she w..."

regarding Ruddolph - I think with tens of thousands casualties, the lack of a body won't be an issue as much as the credibility of the witnesses. Bradly and the SI cops could give a negative opinion on Ruddy, but it does come down to Harry's word against his - and it would be tricky.
On the other hand - Harry is still free after 6 months - I guess Ruddolph couldn't get whatever he had on Harry to stick either.
And we still don't know who is pulling Ruddy's strings - someone is sponsoring him, and it's starting to look like it's someone connected to Nemesis rather than one of the Accords.
Harry would be pretty pissed finding out Ruddy's still at large...

Regarding Karrin's fate - No shade for her - she lived and died with her heart open, and she doesn't have unfinished business. I think Valhalla is better for he than the catholic/jewdeo heaven - she would not like to sit and play the harp all eternity...

8/ …and poor badass Yoshimo being a Black Court vampire. Didn’t like that at all. Though she’ll make a really scary high-ranking vamp. And I also have just a little hope for Chandler only being “on ice”

2 full wizards into the black court - scary thought. Plot error point - Harry claimed the BC vamps were sourcerers, and that Mavra was the least of them - but he knew very well that Mavra was full wizard, why would he underestimate the rest like that?
It did cost the lives of 2, maybe 3 of his comrades...

10/ Marcone using magic. This threw me – isn’t magic heritable? You get a certain amount of talent then it’s up to you to have the discipline to use it well and effectively. And I thought Marcone was pretty low down on the spectrum.

most people have a minor talent that can be built up with knowledge - to a certain extent - which is why he may not use huge amounts of magic like Harry, but with the denarian tutoring him, he has the knowledge and experience to use what little he has in a more effective way.
The concrete teacup was weird, though...

Murphy (2): I think maybe the difference is that Murphy kinda won. There was agency and choice behind the scene. Unlike Susan (bk3) she wasn’t a bystander. And from a story perspective, getting all angsty and sad wouldn’t have had the same impact for me as… you know, blinding murderous villainy.

Susan sacrificed herself to save her girl - how is that being an innocent bystander?!
I like the women in the Dresdenverse - they are strong, even characters like the wife of the sourcerer in SF or the paranetters - they may be weak physically but they are tough and can make tough choices.
Susan fought her way to Chichen Itza and held the Red King at bay. She was strong enough to control herself and not murder anybody for a decade. She was NOT an innocent bystander - she knew what she was doing and what was happening.
Murphy too - she had all the choices to stay safe - she chose to be where she was, and she knew she might not make it.
Harry was pretty broken up after Susan died, but not homicidal. I guess he was really pissed at Ruddolph this time.

Marcone was using Thorned Namshiel's magic. Namshiel is the one who has hundreds of years of experience with magic. Now that Marcone has the coin he has access to that power and knowledge but it isn't he who performs the magic unaided.

The norm who knew Mouse's name was a former neighbor. Mouse is just more memorable than Dresden. ;-)

Rawlin's being 2 weeks away from retirement- what a great cultural reference. And I loved his parting shot, "Two week," Rawlins muttered as I left. "Gonna die of cliche' poisoning."

While I think it unlikely, Marcone becoming a Knight of the Cross would certainly make Harry's life worse. Making Harry suffer delights the author because of the angst it causes his readers.

Harry was homicidal at Rudolph because he had a target for his grief and rage this time. After Susan, he was more suicidal because he'd had to strike the death blow. Yeah, he was pissed at Rudolph.

Harry's still free and uncharged after 6 months. So many possibilities: perhaps the Librarians had a hand in that. Perhaps they've even recruited Rudy in a, let's put him on ice, kind of way; a nice, quiet paper pushing clerical job where he can feel important but actually be impotent.

Or perhaps he's in a hospital for those who suffered breakdowns as a result of the Battle of the Bean. He'll certainly never face mortal justice as things stand, unless it's the vigilante kind.

Or unless Murphy's brothers find out what happened that night. I can see CPD having had enough of Rudy's IA excesses especially in the rebuilding of CPD after such a battle.

We still need to know who was behind him though.

I am simply going to do the happy dance of "I WAS RIGHT" when I predicted that Justine was behind things with Thomas and that there were shenanigans afoot there.

There are just so many feelings from this book, though, that I'm still processing a lot of it.

Chris wrote: "... ejection of harry from the white council was a bit of a bonehead move"
Seconded. Understandable reaction but they’re still idiots.

Uhm, maybe just me, but when have they not been idiots where Harry is concerned? And a lot of other things. The Council is still being petty on levels that should have been left behind a hundred years ago. So, this did not surprise me in the least. Then again, Harry is so far beyond "Wizard of the White Council" these days that ... well, this makes sense to finally be a "free agent" ... sort of, as much as possible. Mostly, he's just my favorite loose cannon!

I cried over Murphy. Completely understood the desire to take Rudolf down to his component particles. Did not understand the Blackstaff on some levels. Waiting for that to shake out. Oh Thomas. And now I gotta wait a year for the fall out from all this. Not to mention I must now read both books again because I went through them so fast I'm sure I missed things. Important things.

Oh, and just when I was going: You cannot kill Marcone! Well, that was completely unexpected. And no, Marcone is not working with Nicodemus. I did rather wonder about the connection back to the whole Shroud and whether perhaps the young lady is now awake. That question was never answered ... at least, I don't think it was. Correct me if I'm wrong. (My original thought was that it didn't work ...)

And conjuritis ... anvil. I laughed soooooooo hard.

You are correct the shroud that was stolen by the Church Mice for Marcone didn't work. But won't Marcone be pissed when he discovers that Harry got the actual shroud out of Hades vault and didn't tell him about it?

And yes, the anvil. :-D lol, rofl, followed by giggling and tittering every time I remember it. How many books was that in the making? 11?

oh, almost forgot - to whoever suggested the Blackstaff is Mother Winter's missing kane - I owe you an apology.
I still think she could have taken it back if she really wanted it, but the part where Mccoy turned into an old crone for a moment - very suspicious... Still - maybe Mother Winter just has paticence that the staff would make its way back to her when some uppitty mortal uses it too much and gets overwhelmed by her.

Yasmin wrote: "oh, almost forgot - to whoever suggested the Blackstaff is Mother Winter's missing kane - I owe you an apology.
I still think she could have taken it back if she really wanted it, but the part wher..."

Maybe the winter Mother's cane won't hurt the Winter Knight... unless she's wielding it herself that is. Wouldn't that be a fun loophole when the White Council decides to send McCoy after Harry!

Caryl wrote: "You are correct the shroud that was stolen by the Church Mice for Marcone didn't work. But won't Marcone be pissed when he discovers that Harry got the actual shroud out of Hades vault and didn't t..."

No knowing when Marcone got the coin, so, no, I don't think Marcone will care. By this time, he's either figured out how to fix things with the knowledge the Denarian has shared with him, and that is soo much a working cooperative, or the plug was pulled a long time ago. Still, I'd like a definitive answer to this. (Of course, there is always the possibility that the fake worked because of the faith that's been poured into it over time ... )

SC wrote: "Caryl wrote: "You are correct the shroud that was stolen by the Church Mice for Marcone didn't work. But won't Marcone be pissed when he discovers that Harry got the actual shroud out of Hades vaul..."

This discussion really got me thinking and I don't think the shroud from the vault would have necessarily healed her anyway.

The sign was enbodied with the power of Christ's Intervention on behalf of Humanity. So it's power is to allow someone to designate themselves as the obstacle everything has to go through.

The knife, it turns out, is the spear head from the spear of longginus. So basically an item enpowered/embodied with the power to pierce the divine. it pierced the son of god so it can pierce any divine thing.

The swords are built around the nails that were steeped in the blood of Jesus. AKA the blood of the Lamb. So they are the embodyment of both sacrifice and Choice and faith in God. Becuase the nails represent his choice to be the redemption of mankind and thus mankinds belief in the ultimate redemption of anyone, no matter how evil.

So, following this trend, the shroud would be the embodyment of Christ's resurrection. From which he was not healed. He came back with all his wounds in tact. So though it's not clear what form it would take, the shroud would grant the power of resurrection I think. It would not grant the power of healing. So, I don't think the shroud from the vault would actually heal anything that was wrong with "persephone".

And While I'm thinking on this. Following the trend that Jim has set up so far with these objects as embodyments of the actions taken with them I don't think the grail would give immortality either. The grail was the object that jesus used to seal the covenant between himself and mankind. So, I think that if Nickadeemis ever shows up with that cup again it will probably be used to seal or break some sort of contract/covenant. We've seen lots of those in this series that he could use to start an apocalypse.


A couple of notes on the previous comments:

1. We know that the shroud the church mice stole didn't work, no matter how much faith it was charged with. Because if it had Ms. Demeter would have her daughter back and her soul space wouldn't be a constant replay of that moment.

2. based on hints thrown out at the end of small favor we can assume Marcone got the coid then. That's the coin that disappeared on his chopper between the island that mainland.

About WC kicking Harry out, this what Dallium wrote about it on reddit (not my thoughts, in other words). I think there are some great points, though, so I thought to share it here:

Expelling Harry is a brilliant political move on Langtry's part, and serves multiple ends.

1. The Council is no longer accountable for Harry's actions, which they couldn't much influence in the first place. As I've mentioned elsewhere, even in Storm Front Harry was playing fast and loose with his Council obligations and duties. His whole encounter with Bianca is pretty politically inept, in that he assumes the threat of the Council will protect him from Bianca without considering how his actions might affect the relationship between the Reds and the Council. He can't drag the Council into any more wars if he's not a member.

2. The Council, as a political entity, doesn't have an obligation to protect Harry anymore. Harry's a scary dude. He's got really scary enemies. Anything that manages to take Harry out in a way that would require a response from the Council isn't going to go down easily or without one hell of an honor guard. Harry's probably in the top percentile of non-Senior Council Wizards, even before he has to lean on his mantle, allies and artifacts. There are probably only a fingerful of non-Council, purely mortal practitioners in the same league as Dresden. With Harry out, the Council is free to respond to any threat that takes him out in their own time and without a loss of prestige, and probably outside the strictures of the Accords.

3. Harry is free to fulfill his other obligations to WC allies. The supernatural community as a whole is pretty down with the whole mantels, obligations and hirelings thing, but vanilla mortals probably won't be, at least at first. In a post-BG world, disavowing Harry means that nobody will blame the WC for anything Harry does when acting as the Winter Knight directly or as a subcontractor ala Skin Game. It especially means that the WC doesn't have to take cognizance of Harry's ongoing and deepening relationship with the White Court. Finally, it means nobody can use the Council against Harry anymore, which has traditionally been worse for the Council that it has for Harry.

4. The ultimatum tells Harry that there's an upper limit on the shenanigans the Council is willing to overlook. Langtry's willy enough to know that he can't just order Ebenezer to go whack Harry on a technicality; he's not going to put Ebenezer's loyalties to the test unless Harry gives him a damn good reason. We don't know for sure whether or not Langtry knows Harry is Ebenezer's grandson, but I'm assuming he does know until proven otherwise. Langtry is letting Harry know that his actions going forward will have a profound effect on the WC in general and his grandfather specifically, and that he's willing to risk the equivalent of something between a constitutional crisis and a civil war to drive the point home.

5. It mollifies a big chunk of the Council who are justifiably terrified of Harry by showing that the Senior Council is Doing Something about the Dresden issue. We know Langtry knows about the Black Council in a general sense from his conversation with Harry in Changes. The rank-and-file Wizards probably all suspect something, and Harry is pretty sus to them. Booting him reassures the genuinely fearful and might (in Langtry's view) lull the BC into a false sense of security. Either way, the Merlin is seen as decisive and proactive.

6. Harry's status quo needed shaking up. Again, we don't know how much Langtry knows about Harry, but if safer to assume he knows everything than to assume he knows nothing. He was under regular surveillance at least until the Sword of Damocles was rescinded, so its a pretty safe bet Langtry knows Harry prefers familiar routine to proactive change. Expelling Harry forces him to grow into someone who doesn't need the Council's aegis. Langtry's motivation for this could be purely cynical, in building a better weapon, but Listens-to-Wind and the Gatekeeper are solidly in the pro-Dresden camp with Ebenezer being at worst ambivalent. The SC has a vested interest in Harry's growth.

7. It sets Harry up for an even bigger Big Damn Heroes moment when he's brought back in from the cold. During the War, Harry muses about Darth Vander syndrome and how it already applied to him as early as Dead Beat. Making Harry even scarier in the short term will heighten the morale boost if and when it the time comes to bring him back in.

8. Merlin can be fairly sure Harry will keep being Harry, and won't knock the chip off the Council's shoulder out of pique. Again, it's probably pretty safe to assume the Merlin is one of the sharper knives in the drawer. He knows Harry doesn't have a specific beef with the Council as a whole, and that Harry at least tries to minimize collateral damage. Harry isn't the kind of person to tear down the whole Council for his ego. I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that the Merlin has worked out Harry's mid-BG revelations vis a vi the path to monsterhood a long time ago, considering his relative lack of compunction about executing warlocks. Even in Langtry has secretly been Dresden's biggest fan behind the scenes, Harry wasn't ready to hear about the crushing weight of responsibility at the beginning of Proven Guilty, and certainly not ready to hear it from one Arthur Langtry. He knows that Harry were going to go supervillain, he probably would have already done so, and Merlin can take a long view.

9. The Wardens will be motivated to improve themselves and grow more powerful. Harry was a crutch to the Wardens. He was the cavalry, the stupidly powerful, darkly dangerous ally who would ride in and save the day. He was what the monsters feared. Now he IS a monster. Everyone who looked up to Harry, who admired him and aspired to his strength, will fully appreciate their own need for growth, because they might be called on to take the fight to him. He's become a known, concrete threat they must strive to match, and they'd better match him before he decides to come for the Council. He'll serve as a cautionary tale, an example of how easy it is to fall to corruption. If Langtry plays his cards right, Ana and Los will turn the Wardens into an extremely potent weapon. Even better, the destabilizing influence he had on the younger cohorts in the Council has been neatly reversed. Everyone will be wondering where it all went wrong for Harry and might reflexively reject his old philosophy.

Tuuli wrote: "About WC kicking Harry out, this what Dallium wrote about it on reddit (not my thoughts, in other words). I think there are some great points, though, so I thought to share it here:

Expelling Harr..."
These are all excellent points.

Tuuli wrote: "About WC kicking Harry out, this what Dallium wrote about it on reddit (not my thoughts, in other words). I think there are some great points, though, so I thought to share it here:

Expelling Harr..."

regarding 9 about the other wardens - you forget that Harry was considered dead for a year and then was on the island for another year - the wardens were managing without him for that long at least. There is a reason why Carlos and Anastasia (shame on using half her name) were suspicious of Harry - they haven't seen him for a long time.

About half the other counts you said require the Merlin to be pro-Harry, which he isn't. they sound more like JB's reason than any character.
The one about Harry not doing anything out of pique is especially jarring - you're talking about a guy that enjoys yanking any chains he sees.

The one about the BC kinda makes sense, except Langtry still hasn't acknowledged it exists and not just a lone assassin.

The rest of the counts don't really stand on their own.
Someone wanted Harry isolated. Has to be a wizard because they're the only ones who still have such high opinion on the WC to think kicking Harry out will actually hurt him.

Oh for sure, also think it’s an attempted play against Ebaneezer or other Grey Council types.

When Eb (and Carlos) kept banging on to Harry to to change his ways or he wouldn’t be a part of the council, I kind of thought, so? It’s not like they really ever made him feel like he was a part of it, except for his brief forced stint as a warden. His “family” and the people he counted on were other people and non.

Didn’t get Carlos speech blaming Harry for the deaths and what happened exactly could have Harry have done to prevent it, or how would have confiding in Carlos changed anything? Not saving Thomas would have helped how?. The Fomor and Ethnieu had their little plot going independently, or as part of The outsider master plan. What did I miss?

Km wrote: "Oh for sure, also think it’s an attempted play against Ebaneezer or other Grey Council types.

When Eb (and Carlos) kept banging on to Harry to to change his ways or he wouldn’t be a part of the c..."

Molly's run-in with Carlos on her short story - she really did a number on him...
Let's see - Harry was keeping Thomas away from Carlos, and someone was telling him about the white court anyway. The girl that harry was fostering turned out to be a Monster. Harry was missing for over 2 years and not contacting him, not even a message saying "hi, I'm not dead"...
and then Harry was going behind his back to Lara, defending Thomas and all - and lying to Carlos about it even though he did ask nicely before going stalkery on him...
Add the atmosphere of paranoia after Morgan, and I'm surprised he lasted that long...

Wizards White Council kicking Dresden out isn’t completely unprecedented. Expected maybe. In some quarters. Especially when you consider he actually is guilty of smashing the First Law of Magic.

Bianca’s masquerade was pretty messed up, way back when. Unless we’re still cowering behind the paper thin smokescreen of plausible deniability? The guy burns a bunch of people to death.

He killed Justin DuMorne with black magic too. Yeah, it was self-defence but the backlash still happened. We experience negative effects of that in the narrative first person. And now…

Ramirez: “They found witnesses who saw you directly murder servants of the Fomor by means of pyromancy.”

Paulum Mortis wrote: "Wizards White Council kicking Dresden out isn’t completely unprecedented. Expected maybe. In some quarters. Especially when you consider he actually is guilty of smashing the First Law of Magic.

B..."
I call BS on that 'directly murder servants of the Fomor..". Do you blame a soldier for the deaths he causes in war? What's more, those 'servants' were actively trying to kill him AND members of the White Council. So, self-defense AND defense of another are at play. He WAS assigned to assist in protecting the Sr. Council members as well as liase with Winter.

Not only that but Carlos himself destroyed 'servants of the Fomor' in that self-same battle. 'What's sauce for the goose...' Carlos. Where are the charges against you? Just another attempt to destroy Dresden with transparently unreasonable charges, which will, I hope, bring down the current White Council.
I know they won't charge the Sr. Council members because a) Eb's allowed to kill mortals if he deems it necessary. b) Liberty didn't actually take part in the combat. She was injured early in the fray and remained at the 'castle' co-ordinating communications. c) Listens To Wind doesn't seem to have engaged the mortal troops and d) Cristos, if he even survived, appears to have only assisted McCoy due to his forms of magic not being typically combat types. Although it was neat trick to manipulate his earth magic to simply pull enemies underground to be suffocated by the earth itself.

Caryl wrote: "I call BS on that 'directly murder servants of the Fomor..". Do you blame a soldier for the deaths he causes in war? ..."

My understanding was that the point of the First Law was that specifically killing humans with magic warps your mind. It's not a moral rule, it's a safe-use-of-magic issue. And the reason the Blackstaff is allowed to break the law is that the staff prevents the warping.

Based on what we've seen, I don't think the "turtlenecks" are still human. They seem to lack free will on a fundamental level, like it's been removed rather than just submerged or dominated. They're interpreting and following orders at a higher level of complexity than Renfields can, but they're essentially just as soulless. If that's true, then killing them with magic shouldn't be worse than killing a Renfield.

Paulum Mortis wrote: "3/ Lacuna is a Tooth Faerie."

I worked this out around the middle of October. I'm wondering if I'm the last serious fan of the Dresden books to realize that a little winged fairy who is angered by candy, favors raw vegetables, and calls herself "Cavity" (in latin), is a tooth fairy. I can't remember instances, but didn't she talk in previous books about teeth, too?

I finished reading Battle Ground, and reread the short story Christmas Eve at the end. Some questions and comments:

I would expect that Marcone had not accepted Namshiel's coin until after the short story "Even Hand", set between Turn Coat and Changes. The story had a Marcone first person perspective that didn't include a second voice in his head. I wouldn't expect Butcher to cheat about this. That doesn't mean he hadn't been keeping it somehow, just that he hadn't touched it yet.

Where do the Denarians stand on Outsiders? They're pro-apocalypse, but Nicodemus may not have been faking anger when he heard about Denarian participation in the attack on Arctis Tor. Can a Denarian be subverted by He-Who-Walks-Beside? Can an angel?

Marcone is in the Accords, but the Denarians, including Thorned Namshiel, betrayed the accords, didn't they? Does that count against the Denarians in general, or does Mab blame Nicodemus specifically?

Harry wants preparations akin to Marcone's, not under Marcone's control. What would that look like? He has a magical castle now, so he presumably has options. He was one of the two founders of the Paranet, and he's now free from obligations to the White Council. Could he organize a parallel entity to the White Council -- less top-down, more federated, less exclusive, perhaps? He seems to be a natural at this, given what he's been doing for the Little Folk. No one seems to understand that he didn't bind them to his will, he operated by voluntary deals, an established history of honest dealing, and finding mutual benefits and shared interests. That sort of thing scales up really well.

The thing that really confuses me, though, is this: In "Christmas Eve", when Harry looked at the paper Molly gave him, how did Harry know on sight that "if you left off the decimal points, it was a prime number"?

At least two times in canon Harry calculates prime numbers into the multiple thousands as a coping mechanism for handling either sexual desire, pain or temptation. I'm sure he has mastered the technique by now or memorized a lot of prime numbers. ;-)

Caryl wrote: " I'm sure he has mastered the technique by now or memorized a lot of prime numbers."

Assuming the number he was working on was more than seven digits long, either of those would be impressive from MIster "All I have is a GED, I don't even know how to calculate a GPA".

Doubtful wrote: "Caryl wrote: " I'm sure he has mastered the technique by now or memorized a lot of prime numbers."

Assuming the number he was working on was more than seven digits long, either of those would be i..."
Practice makes better and Harry seems to have had a lot of it. ;-)

Doubtful wrote: "I finished reading Battle Ground, and reread the short story Christmas Eve at the end. Some questions and comments:

I would expect that Marcone had not accepted Namshiel's coin until after the sho..."

haven't you noticed the Unreliable Narrator thing going on by now?
Harry was keeping Gray a secrect for most of SG, and it's not the only time he's activly shielding something from everybody, including the readers.
Marcone could have the coin in EH but either inactive or not relevant to the case. He did spend the whole war without using it until the end, so I don't think he's relying too much on Namshiel - it's a "just in case" thing probably. If I were him I would try not to depend on a demon too much - those are nutorious for being unreliable, and the denarians do drop their coins on their hosts occationally.

Regarding the position of the denarians vs the Outsiders - I don't think they are on the same side - all the accord nations seem to be opposing the Outsiders on the basis of "we are predators and those are competition" - like Thomas said in Backup. It's an interesting question to play who is Infected and who isn't.
Red Court king probably was, and whoever gave the wolf-belts to the feds, and the 2 warlocks from the early books, and at least one denarian (which is why nicodimus was pissed about arctis tor), and Maeve was, and the rough white court guys from the battle of the Deeps...
We probably don't know from the good side who is infected aside from Justine.

Yasmin wrote: "Harry was keeping Gray a secrect for most of SG, and it's not the only time he's activly shielding something from everybody, including the readers."

Skin Game skipped one scene (and you could kind of see something was skipped, but not whether it mattered), and then showed everything. Nothing was hidden, but the meaning of what we saw changed once the missing scene was revealed. Standard narrative trick, but very effectively used.

Different approach when Harry arranged his own assassination. That time there was a clear discontinuity at the skip and Molly acts oddly, which hints that something important happened (without saying what it was). The explanation doesn't come until the next novel, but Butcher makes revealing the missing bit the central plot of the book. He doesn't just casually leave it out.

With "Even Hand", we get enough internal monologue that if Marcone been consulting with Thorned Namshiel (as he certainly ought to have done, under the circumstances), it would be a major writing cheat to leave it out and never even hint that anything was missing. If he'd already picked up the coin, I would expect Jim Butcher to drop hints that something was up with Marcone, even if you couldn't tell what it was.

Also, at some point between "Even Hand" and Battle Ground, Marcone went from very cautious to very careless about using up those rare, irreplacable magic-defense-piercing bullets.

I'd agree with the infected list, except I that can't figure out if the Red Court king was actively infected or just losing control (as apparently sometimes happened with old Red Court vampires), and trying to cover. Also, what about the White Court king? He seems to still have an inexplicably powerful shield, and he was fine with ritually summoning He Who Walks Behind in the Deeps. He could have been infected, or he might have deliberately dealt with Outsiders to get an edge.

And if the Denarians are opposed to the Outsiders, that leaves open the question of what the Denarians' ultimate goal is. They seem to have one, and arranging chaos and apocalyptic events just seems to be a means to an end.

Doubtful wrote: "Yasmin wrote: "Harry was keeping Gray a secrect for most of SG, and it's not the only time he's activly shielding something from everybody, including the readers."

Skin Game skipped one scene (and..."

I don't think Marcone needed to openly consult with Namshiel at EH - he had Gard, the whole setup was pre-set before the story began, no decisions were made aside from accepting Justine and the kid. Also - considering Gard is a potential threat, he wouldn't act weird around her or Hendrix (who seems a nice guy when not confronted by Dresden trying to get a rise out of him).
Another point - Marcone is methodical, he was testing the defence setup, There is no need to consult with someone who was part of the design team until everything is finished.

And, if that doesn't work for you, consider how long it took Harry to actually start talking with Lash, and Marcone is just as stubborn.

Doubtful wrote: “…if the Denarians are opposed to the Outsiders, that leaves open the question of what the Denarians' ultimate goal is. They seem to have one, and arranging chaos and apocalyptic events just seems to be a means to an end.”

This!

I’ve been wondering this for ages. Nicodemus has some kind of goal. He’s ruthless, unwavering, and dedicated to something. We missed the opportunity in SMALL FAVOR to soulgaze him and maybe find out.

Whatever he’s trying to do—maybe Outsiders, maybe not—we’re not going to like it, but I think we will be able to understand, even empathise with him. Whatever it is, is going to be important.

And now Gentlemen Jonny Marcone is pointing himself toward “biggest Denarian badass.” I like it!

Paulum Mortis wrote: "Doubtful wrote: “…if the Denarians are opposed to the Outsiders, that leaves open the question of what the Denarians' ultimate goal is. They seem to have one, and arranging chaos and apocalyptic ev..."

what is the goal of the denarians?
The angels seem to think preserving free choice is the best thing, and the denarians - what - take a look at the chaos resulting from everybody doing what they want and rebelling?
So if they have a goal, it may be to prove free choise is a bad idea and force someone to step in and save the day buy taking away that free choice...
So the chaos they're making is not designed to end the world so much as it's ment to prove a point - which is why they let little fish like Dresden to stop them (seriously - get a tip off azimandias and don't let the good guys know what's up until after it's too late to stop it).
We don't know what the Outsiders want, but I doubt it would end well for whoever Nicodimus is trying to protect (and he is - at the price of his daughter!).

Yasmin wrote: "And, if that doesn't work for you, consider how long it took Harry to actually start talking with Lash, and Marcone is just as stubborn."

But Harry never took up the coin, he merely touched it briefly, then tried to bury it. If Marcone decided to take up the coin, I'd expect him to do it decisively and with the intention of putting it to immediate (secret) use. And the way the imprint of Lashiel worked, Harry could consult her without anyone around him noticing (when they both wanted it that way). I would assume a coin-holder could do as much, so I can't see such a consultation being obvious from the outside. I would also expect him to consult his internal magic expert extensively during a magical conflict if he could do it secretly, so in that case the short story would be kind of a cheat if Namshiel was hidden from the reader.

But this brings up two alternatives: what if accessing the coin when it's in your possession is more obvious than interacting with an imprint? Also, we've seen the way coincidental things seem to happen to bring coins into circulation. What if the coin just sort of ended up touching him "by chance", and he'd had the same ghost-in-his-head situation that Dresdent had had? It took a while before Dresden even realized that was happening, and he was a wizard. What if Marcone had a subconscious Namshiel for a while, and taking up the coin is still a recent thing?