Dickensians! discussion

LITTLE DORRIT: Third thread



This is the third thread for Little Dorrit, in which we have daily discussions of Chapters 23 - 36: the later threads in the first book.

This is a list of all the chapters in this thread, beginning with Chapter 23, which is the first chapter in Charles Dickens's original monthly installment 7. Clicking on each chapter will automatically link you to the summary for that chapter:

LITTLE DORRIT
First Book: Poverty

VII – June 1856 (chapters 23–25)
Chapter 23 (Message 3)
Chapter 24 (Message 21)
Chapter 25 (Message 39)

VIII – July 1856 (chapters 26–29)
Chapter 26 (Message 56)
Chapter 27 (Message 60)
Chapter 28 (Message 76)
Chapter 29 (Message 97)

IX – August 1856 (chapters 30–32)
Chapter 30 (Message 110)
Chapter 31 (Message 130)
Chapter 32 (Message 149)

X – September 1856 (chapters 33–36)
Chapter 33 (Message 175)
Chapter 34 (Message 190)
Chapter 35 (Message 198)
Chapter 36 (Message 217)

Chapter 23:

We now return to some of our other characters.

One morning Mr. Meagles calls on Arthur, to let him know that Daniel Doyce would like Mr. Clennam to look over all his business affairs. He wants Arthur to know everything, so that he can consider whether he wants to enter into a partnership with him, and decide the price. Arthur says that this is very honourable of him, and they make their way to Bleeding Heart Yard.

Daniel Doyce has gone out of town for a week, so that Arthur may have a free hand. After three or four days of meticulous examination of the books and so on, Arthur decides it is a sound proposition, and can moreover think of a few improvements to its smooth running. He also values the partnership slightly more highly than the offer that Daniel Doyce had expected, so all three are very pleased with the outcome.

The purchase is completed within a month, leaving Arthur’s private means at just a few hundred pounds. He very much enjoys the business however, finding it a welcome change:

“The workshop was arrived at by a step-ladder from the outer yard below … The little counting-house reserved for his own occupation, was a room of wood and glass at the end of a long low workshop, filled with benches, and vices, and tools, and straps, and wheels; which, when they were in gear with the steam-engine, went tearing round as though they had a suicidal mission to grind the business to dust and tear the factory to pieces.”

One day when Clennam is hard at work in the office of “DOYCE AND CLENNAM”, he is startled to see Flora and Mr. F.’s Aunt making their way up the stepladder to his office “with considerable difficulty”:



Visitors at the Works - Phiz

At first, Flora seems rather put out that Arthur Clennam has never come to visit her again, and that it was only through Pancks that she had learned about his new business life and his partner in Bleeding Heart Yard. Flora is her old, impossibly flirtatious self, revealing that Arthur has inadvertently hurt her feelings, despite all her confusing chatter:

“I might have been dead and buried twenty distinct times over and no doubt whatever should have been before you had genuinely remembered Me or anything like it in spite of which one last remark I wish to make, one last explanation I wish to offer—”

Arthur is frankly alarmed to think that she might once more raise the issue of why she married Mr. Finching, and indeed she is so discursive, and her chatter so ceaseless, giving him her old looks, and talking about the past, that her volubility seems unstoppable. However, she eventually comes round to the point:

“Pancks told us of your having embarked in this business and with difficulty persuaded us that it was really you I said to Mr F.’s Aunt then we would come and ask you if it would be agreeable to all parties that she should be engaged at our house when required for I know she often goes to your mama’s and I know that your mama has a very touchy temper Arthur—Doyce and Clennam—or I never might have married Mr F. and might have been at this hour but I am running into nonsense.”

When Arthur finally understands that Flora is suggesting employing Little Dorrit to do needlework in her house, he suddenly becomes interested and says how kind this is of her:

“I have an interest in the little creature, and a respect for her that I cannot express to you. Her life has been one of such trial and devotion, and such quiet goodness, as you can scarcely imagine. I can hardly think of her, far less speak of her, without feeling moved”

and he gladly agrees.

Hearing her father approaching, Flora once more begins the ridiculous charade of pretending she and Arthur have a secret relationship, and then “the Patriarch with his benevolent smile” joins them, saying that he wishes Arthur well in his new venture. Mr. Pancks has also arrived, and retires to a corner.

In the course of their conversation, (or Flora’s meanderings) Mr. F.’s Aunt has made various rather hostile interjections directed at Arthur, including a remark about there being milestones on the Dover road. The conversation becomes even more peculiar, as Pancks begins to act as a kind of legal cautionary voice for Mr. Casby. He explains to Mr. Clennam that Mr. Casby never “recommended” Little Dorrit to Mrs. Clennam—he could not do that, not having any knowledge of the quality of her services—but simply mentioned her name. Mr. F.’s Aunt now increases the absurdity of the situation, by saying “with the deadliest animosity” directed at him:

“You can’t make a head and brains out of a brass knob with nothing in it. You couldn’t do it when your Uncle George was living; much less when he’s dead.”

Pancks replies imperturbably, and Flora comments that Mr F.’s Aunt is very lively to-day, and she thinks they had better go. But Mr F.’s Aunt has no intention of doing anything of the kind, and is even more rude to Arthur. Pancks saves the day by leaving the room, and then making a great show of arriving again, being delighted to see her, and gallantly escorting Mr F.’s Aunt out for a little walk. The other visitors follow them out.

Left on his own again, Arthur falls into musing on his old suspicions about his mother and Little Dorrit, but is very much surprised by the return of Mr. Pancks. Even more strangely, in a roundabout, cautious, legal way, Arthur deduces that Pancks wants him to tell him all he knows about Little Dorrit.

At first, Clennam is rather taken aback by Pancks’s curiosity, and suspects his motives. Nevertheless, Pancks promises Clennam that he is not making the enquiry on behalf of Mr. Casby, whom he oddly refers to as his “proprietor”, and that his motive is good. Arthur then tells him as much as he knows about the Dorrit family, and Pancks seems “particularly to be quite charmed by the account of William Dorrit’s long imprisonment”.

Since, as Arthur says, Mr. Pancks is a “man of business” Arthur proposes a bargain:

“I have reasons beyond a personal regard for speaking as little as I can of the Dorrit family, particularly at my mother’s house … and for knowing as much as I can … I wish to make a fair bargain with you, that you shall enlighten me concerning the Dorrit family when you have it in your power, as I have enlightened you.”

He admits that he is not as business-like as Pancks, adding ruefully:

"I have seen so much business done on sharp principles that, to tell you the truth, Mr Pancks, I am tired of them."

Pancks laughs and says he will stick to this bargain. He spends a while thinking it all over, before saying it is alright, and then in business-like fashion his mind turns again to his rent-collecting duties in Bleeding Heart Yard.

Mr. Pancks now asks Arthur about “the lame foreigner with the stick [who] has been in the hospital”, who also wants a room in Bleeding Heart Yard. Pancks wants to know if he is “good for it”. Arthur answers honestly that he will "answer for him", thereby letting Pancks know that the stranger has little money, after observing that Pancks will take his reference.

Mr. Pancks then presses his interest in the lame foreigner, saying that he believes he has recently been in the hospital, and Arthur agrees, assuring Pancks that it was because of an accident (ie. he hadn't brought over the plague). Mr. Pancks gently probes again, making sure in his business-like fashion that Clennam would indeed be able to pay the rent after the hospital bill:

"'It’s pauperising a man, sir, I have been shown, to let him into a hospital?’ said Pancks."

The narrator implies by Arthur's response, that this questioning of a gentleman's financial resources may have cast a slight dampener on the new friendship:

"‘I have been shown so too,’ said Clennam, coldly."

The chapter ends with Pancks conducting his business, collecting rents for Mr. Casby, not accepting any excuses, and:

“haranguing the inhabitants on their backslidings in respect of payment … Perspiring and puffing and darting about in eccentric directions, and becoming hotter and dingier every moment, he lashed the tide of the yard into a most agitated and turbid state.”

The residents of Bleeding Heart Yard all think that Mr. Casby himself would never have been so hard on them:

“it was universally agreed that Mr Pancks was a hard man to have to do with.”

And yet we observe at the close, that that “benevolent” gentleman says to his representative:

“A very bad day’s work, Pancks, very bad day’s work … you ought to have got much more money, much more money.”

I rather enjoyed seeing the true side of Mr. Casby. I thought before he was just an imbecile but now...

Yet another hypocrite ... We should count them up!

Dicken’s characters are delightfully drawn. So far, this is more a book about people as whatever plot is still very subtle. We don’t know where it is going.

I am thinking I need to pay more attention to Mr. F's Aunt. These exclamations of hers seem to make no sense, and I originally thought they were just to show she was peculiar, but now I am thinking there is something under the surface and a reason she directs them at Arthur.

Another character I am on the fence about is Planks. He is doing Casby's biddings with regard to the tenants, so he cannot be held to blame entirely for that, and his intentions do seem honest toward Dorrit, judging from his discussion with Arthur. I had a bit of altered feelings toward him in this chapter.

Flora would definitely get on my nerves, if I were Arthur. She is so silly and inane with her constant references to their earlier attachment. I'm betting he is blessing the day that alliance was broken up.

Bionic Jean wrote: "Chapter 23:

We now return to some of our other characters.

One morning Mr. Meagles calls on Arthur, to let him know that Daniel Doyce would like Mr. Clennam to look over all his business affairs...."

Jean, doesn’t Mr. Clennam agree to pay the lame foreigner’s rent? (it’s Jean-Baptiste of course).

Sara - I like the way we see another side of Mr. Pancks too, in this chapter.

Mona - Well Arthur is a gentleman, and even though he and Pancks are sharing some confidences, he would not disclose that sort of information.

The exact quotation, when Pancks is fishing for information, is:

‘It’s pauperising a man, sir, I have been shown, to let him into a hospital?’ said Pancks. And again blew off that remarkable sound.

‘I have been shown so too,’ said Clennam, coldly.

Is this the part you mean? Or are you going back to another chapter?

What chapter did the fellow get hit by the Mail “Truck” - and Clennam stayed by his side? I looked back but cannot find it.

It's right at the end of chapter 13. And yes, Arthur was very solicitous then and promised:

"Clennam remained until everything possible to be done had been skilfully and promptly done—the poor belated wanderer in a strange land movingly besought that favour of him—and lingered by the bed to which he was in due time removed, until he had fallen into a doze. Even then he wrote a few words for him on his card, with a promise to return to-morrow, and left it to be given to him when he should awake."

But I'm not sure this is what Mona means.

Jean here’s the quote where Arthur agrees to pay Jean-Baptiste’s rent in Chapter 23:


“By-the-bye, though. A lame foreigner with a stick.’
‘Ay, ay. You do take a reference sometimes, I see?’ said Clennam.
‘When he can pay, sir,’ replied Pancks. ‘Take all you can get, and keep back all you can’t be forced to give up. That’s business. The lame foreigner with the stick wants a top room down the Yard. Is he good for it?’
‘I am,’ said Clennam, ‘and I will answer for him.”

I read it the same way, Mona, that Arthur would guarantee the rent if John Baptist was unable to pay.

That's how I read it also.

Sara wrote: "I am thinking I need to pay more attention to Mr. F's Aunt. These exclamations of hers seem to make no sense, and I originally thought they were just to show she was peculiar, but now I am thinking..."
I agree about Flora. One of the reasons why Arthur wants to decide not to fall in love with "Pet", I think, is that even though she does not resemble Flora now physically, I think he senses a similarity between Pet's spoiled infatuations and what Flora's were.

Mona wrote: "Jean here’s the quote where Arthur agrees to pay Jean-Baptiste’s rent in Chapter 23:.."

Thank you :) I was hampered finding this last night and couldn't access it properly. And I didn't want to divulge anything which wasn't either from that chapter, or earlier ones.

I've amplified that section in my summary quite a lot, if you would like to read it, Mona, Martha, Sara and Katy. The stranger is not named, so I have recorded this faithfully, and hope there is only minimal interpretation in my paraphrasing, just enough to make it clear. There are so many heavy implications and understandings here!

Sorry if the later stage of this long chapter seemed cursory. I'd prepared it ready, posted early morning, and was travelling across the country all day to my caravan. Came online last thing when I arrived, but the connection was lousy, scrolling my Gutenberg online copy impossible, and trying to loading pages it just kept freezing. I'm much happier with the summary now though, so am glad you mentioned this, Mona :)

I trust it's all OK now, and will post the next chapter later today.

Thank you, Jean! I was trying to remember HOW I figured who the fellow was in the hospital- and remembered he was a Frenchman. That was the clue for me.

Mona - "I was trying to remember HOW I figured who the fellow was in the hospital- and remembered he was a Frenchman. That was the clue for me"

Charles Dickens is so clever, using general terms such as "the stranger" or "the Patriarch" or "the Father of the Marshalsea" - or a short phrase about someone's moustache(!) that it is easy to slip into naming them! In the comments it's fine, but as someone (Jenny I think?) made me aware, a summary shouldn't divulge it! That's all I meant. I love it when we all pick up the hints at the same time :)

Kathleen wrote: "Dicken’s characters are delightfully drawn. So far, this is more a book about people as whatever plot is still very subtle. We don’t know where it is going."

I know you've read all Charles Dickens's novels over the years, but am not not sure how much you remember of each one. So I'll try to explain my take on this, if I may.

The one we've read as a group, David Copperfield had a relatively straightforward story arc, but I tend to think Charles Dickens's novels, (especially the middle and later ones), have several story lines which are equally important. In this way he's different from many 19th century novelists - and very different from what we expect in a novel nowadays. Charles Dickens can't help being discursive, and readers do find themselves wondering half way through The Old Curiosity Shop, or Dombey and Son, or Martin Chuzzlewit, what the actual story is! The point is that a novel (or serial story, which is probably how we should think of it) by Charles Dickens consists of several interwoven stories.

I believe dramatisations of Charles Dickens's novels have tended to fuel this preconception of a "main story". Yes, they're great and I love them! But if you watch one of, say, Bleak House, you will find that the adaptor has edited it so as to emphasis one story, and made the rest into subplots. That's not the experience you have if you read it though - unless you quickly read through bits that you consider minor - because you expect it to conform to your idea of a main story.

It's a bit hard to explain, but I think this may be why you feel you are enjoying the characters, and perhaps not realising that you are also reading lots of plots? Subtle, yes, and also complex :) It will all make sense in the end.

Mark - "One of the reasons why Arthur wants to decide not to fall in love with "Pet", I think, is that even though she does not resemble Flora now physically, I think he senses a similarity between Pet's spoiled infatuations and what Flora's were."

Yes, Arthur has "grown up", and is more emotionally mature but Flora, sadly, never has. She is astute in many ways, but romantically she is still a young girl. This could be appealing ... but the way Charles Dickens describes it, it is merely a little sad - but hilarious!

Nice observation :)

Chapter 24:

Mr. Plornish pops into our text again, by way of calling to see Little Dorrit secretly outside her father’s chambers. Mr. Plornish goes through a charade of coughing, so that Amy will leave the room. What he has to say is not for the delicate ears of Mr. Dorrit, as it relates to Amy’s work as a seamstress.

Mr. Plornish tells her that two ladies have been making enquiries about her, and have left him a card with their address. It is clear to us who these two are, by his description that one of them is “an old wixen ... the the winegariest party [who] snapped a person’s head off”. In addition, Mr. Plornish identifies the other one, saying that Mr. Casby’s daughter:

“would be glad for to engage her. She was a old and a dear friend, she said particular, of Mr Clennam, and hoped for to prove herself a useful friend to his friend.”

Early the next morning, Little Dorrit sets off for Mr. Casby’s house. She goes by the Iron Bridge, even though it costs her a penny, as she likes the solitude there. She is expected, and admitted to the house, and invited to wait. Eventually Flora comes in, quite flustered and in a bother about keeping Amy waiting. She encourages Amy to sit by the fire and take breakfast, but Amy is reluctant and timid, whereupon Flora encourages her:

“You are coming here on the footing of a friend and companion you know … besides which Arthur Clennam spoke in such terms—you are tired my dear.”

This last remark is because Amy has unaccountably turned quite pale. But on Amy insisting that she is quite well, Flora continues her loquacious meanderings.

She tells the story of her romantic life, first drawing attention to Mr F.’s portrait which hangs behind the door. She stresses that this marriage was not a passionate one—indeed—Mr F. proposed seven times before she would accept, and was aware of her situation, that:

“Romance was fled with the early days of Arthur Clennam, our parents tore us asunder … and stern reality usurped the throne.”

Flora gets into her emotional stride telling her account, and Amy feels a little bemused at her “galloping pace”. Flora chatters on, referring to Mrs. Clennam as:

“highly sensible and firm but dreadfully severe—ought to be the mother of the man in the iron mask”



Flora and Little Dorrit - James Mahoney

Amy is uncomfortable having no sewing to do, so asks for some work. Flora gives her a basket of handkerchiefs to hem, and proceeds with the highly coloured account of her early relationship with Arthur Clennam:

“‘Ask me not,’ said Flora, ‘if I love him still or if he still loves me or what the end is to be or when, we are surrounded by watchful eyes and it may be that we are destined to pine asunder it may be never more to be reunited not a word not a breath not a look to betray us all must be secret as the tomb.’”

Amy has her head bowed industriously over her work, but is clearly listening:

“‘for Arthur’s sake I will always be a friend to you my dear girl and in Arthur’s name you may always rely upon me.’
The nimble fingers laid aside the work, and the little figure rose and kissed her hand.”

Flora is concerned that Little Dorrit is unwell, but she assures her new employer that she is merely overcome by gratitude at their kindness. Sensing that Flora is naturally kind-hearted, Little Dorrit confides in her as to where she lives, and why, and gives a eulogy about her father.

At dinnertime, Little Dorrit is introduced to Mr. Pancks and Mr. Casby, and is very bashful in their presence. She is also a little unnerved by the close attention with which Mr. Pancks observes her. Flora finally leaves Amy to her work, having:

“‘gone to lie down’ in the next room, concurrently with which retirement a smell of something to drink had broken out in the house.”

Flora has been putting a mysterious dark brown liquid into her tea, “following the advice of [her] physician”. Pancks appears, and tells Amy he is a fortune-teller, and can read her palm. In this way, Pancks is able to “read” aloud some information on Amy and her family, which makes her wonder, but he also gains her interest and confidence:

“although his were sharp eyes, he was a brighter and gentler-looking man than she had supposed at dinner”

Pancks now assures Amy that he means no harm, and that she “shall live to see”. But what she shall see, he does not explain, merely asking her never to take any notice of him, or even acknowledge him, if she should see him around. She must just think to herself:

“Ah! Pancks the gipsy at his fortune-telling—he’ll tell the rest of my fortune one day—I shall live to know it.”

And see him she does. Wherever Amy goes, following the various obligations in her life, there is Pancks. Even Mr. Plornish notices, and is puzzled by the mystery of the hard-nosed Pancks cultivating friendships with the Collegians, Mr. Dorrit, and even Tip.

Amy wonders too, but keeps this secret. If anything, she becomes even more retiring, keeping to her room—which is only a garret after all—but which she keeps clean and tidy. She often gazes at the shadows of the spikes upon the wall:

“New zig-zags sprung into the cruel pattern sometimes, when she saw it through a burst of tears … seeing everything with that ineffaceable brand.”

One day Maggy appears, telling her that Mr. Clennam is with Amy’s father, and has asked to see her. Amy pleads a headache, and only manages to persuade Maggy to take back the message by promising to tell her a story. This story is a kind of fairy-tale:



The Story of the Princess - Phiz

Amy begins:

“There was once upon a time a fine King, and he had everything he could wish for, and a great deal more. He had gold and silver, diamonds and rubies, riches of every kind. He had palaces, and he had—’
‘Hospitals,’ interposed Maggy, still nursing her knees. ‘Let him have hospitals, because they’re so comfortable. Hospitals with lots of Chicking.’
‘Yes, he had plenty of them, and he had plenty of everything.’“

And as we listen, we understand that this story is metaphorical, and really about Amy herself. It tells about a poor little tiny woman, who spends her time spinning at her wheel. The king’s daughter comes to look at her, and discovers that the tiny woman keeps the shadow of a dear person that has died, in a very secret place. And after the tiny woman has died, the wheel has stopped, and the princess find that the shadow has disappeared.

First I want to comment on your thoughts regarding plot, Jean. I also think this is a misunderstanding people have when reading Dickens. He portrays life, so each character gets his own plot (his own life) that unfolds separately from the others; but at the same time, each of us is connected and the plots all merge into one stream at the end. It is one of the things I love about reading Dickens, trying to decipher how the threads interconnect. I know of no other author who can weave so many separate strands and never leave a single one dangling. I especially think that would have been difficult when he was writing this in a serial, rather than doing an entire book and then being able to go back and edit out the inconsistencies.

Now for today's chapter. One of my favorites so far, because it reveals (I think) some of what Amy is feeling toward Arthur. The fairytale at the end is perfect allegory. I would only disagree with the reading of one line, Jean. "discovers that the tiny woman keeps the shadow of a dear person that has died,". I did not take the story to mean the person was dead, but only removed from the reach of the tiny woman...gone to his other friends (I read this as Flora) where he is expected. The tiny woman's feelings for this person hurt no one because she has the memento of him without his knowledge and he does not so much as realize it has been taken.

Oh my goodness! This is Dickens at his best.

Sara wrote: "He portrays life, so each character gets his own plot (his own life)..."

Yes, very nicely said, Sara :) Though some of the "connections" are very loose. It's like Venn diagrams, rather than flowcharts. Or maybe spokes on a wheel?

The ending ... I didn't think Flora, but someone even closer - herself. I'll read it again, to see.

I do like this chapter with one of Charles Dickens's favourite fancies: fairytales. "Pancks the gypsy, fortune telling", and Little Dorrit's story :)

"Oh my goodness! This is Dickens at his best." Isn't it, Sara :)

Oh, and Pancks! I am changing my whole assessment of him around. I love the way he has sort of transformed in my mind from an ogre to a dragon slayer. He might be key to finding the key to the puzzle. I like that Amy hardly knows what to make of him either.

Bionic Jean wrote: "Mona - "I was trying to remember HOW I figured who the fellow was in the hospital- and remembered he was a Frenchman. That was the clue for me"

Charles Dickens is so clever, using ..."

Backtracking to Chapter 23 here...

Haha...actually Martha said he was French, not me.

Although the “lame foreigner” has a French first name Jean-Baptiste (maybe translated) he was actually Italian if you recall. I think his last name is Cavallieri. And it is tough to keep track of so many characters.

I felt for Amy as Flora rattled on about Arthur, she is very attached to him but feels she is not worthy. Amy’s position as caretaker for a very self-involved group of people who, although they may once have been of a better class, are now little better than beggars with unreal expectations and airs. Amy works hard to keep them all afloat and yet suffers from their dishonorable actions & outlooks, especially in contrast to the quiet generosity & compassion of Arthur.

Mona - OK it was Martha - that makes more sense.

I thought you were still talking about the earlier part, and apologising for mentioning his name. I was trying to reassure you that in the comments we can both theorise and deduce, but the summary should not divulge a name unless the author does. In today's chapter for instance, one character is not named, and the other is referred to as "Mr. Casby's daughter".

"I think his last name is Cavallieri"

No, it's Cavalletto. Sometimes he is called "Jean-Baptiste" sometimes "Jean-Baptist" without the "e", and sometimes "Mr. Baptist". Yes he is Italian, whereas his fellow prisoner claims to be "a citizen of the world".

Kim wrote: "I felt for Amy as Flora rattled on about Arthur, she is very attached to him but feels she is not worthy ..."

Yes, as both you and Sara have pointed out, we are learning far more about Amy's feelings now. I think this is a very sensitive and affecting novel :)

I agree with Jean and Sara. We are learning far more about Amy's feelings and they are for Arthur. I agree with Sara's reading of the fairytale - that the shadow is Arthur who does in a way shadow her life. He is on her mind now especially after Flora's story and believes someone like Flora is worthy of him, but not she. Her story is the equivalent of her saying, "I have a secret which I will take to my grave."

.
.
I wonder if Mr F's Aunt is confusing Arthur with his father. But I still do not know where the anger comes from.

Pancks is taking way too much interest in Amy and her family. He knows something that we do not.

I wonder if Flora is worried that Arthur might be interested in Amy (rightly so). Perhaps she hired Amy with the express purpose of keeping an eye on her and letting her know that she, Flora, has a prior claim. When she is talking to Amy, she certainly makes it sound like there is no doubt that Arthur is still in love with her (Flora), but they have to keep their love hidden.

Bionic Jean wrote: "No, it's Cavalletto. Sometimes he is called "Jean-Baptiste" sometimes "Jean-Baptist" without the "e", and sometimes "Mr. Baptist". Yes he is Italian,”

Right, Jean, I was just going to correct his last name. In Chapter 1, he’s called “John Baptist Cavalletto”.

Chapter 24 was a lovely chapter. Good comments from everyone about this chapter. The fairytale is most interesting, as is Pancks’ pretending to be a fortuneteller in order to learn more about Little Dorrit. Little Dorrit seems very sad or maybe secretly ill. She is secretive and reserved, so we don’t really know. I liked Sara’s interpretation of the fairy tale, but I’m not sure if it’s correct or not. We will find out as the story progresses, I guess.

Sara wrote: "First I want to comment on your thoughts regarding plot, Jean. I also think this is a misunderstanding people have when reading Dickens. He portrays life, so each character gets his own plot (his o..."

Yes, I agree with this. People complain about coincidences in Dickens but that is actually the point. We are all interrelated and Dickens just makes this a little more obvious. It's also a great feat to weave together these plots. I believe he kept charts/timelines on his later books to keep track of the different threads of the story.

Debra - "I wonder if Mr F's Aunt is confusing Arthur with his father. But I still do not know where the anger comes from.

Pancks is taking way too much interest in Amy and her family. He knows something that we do no.."

These are both great points! Of course Pancks has been requested specifically by Arthur to do this investigating ... Time will tell, and todays chapter is even more intriguing :)

Katy - "I wonder if Flora is worried that Arthur might be interested in Amy (rightly so). Perhaps she hired Amy with the express purpose of keeping an eye on her and letting her know that she, Flora, has a prior claim."

This is a really good theory :) I haven't noticed anything manipulative about Flora, however. Another person might well do this, but somehow the open-hearted Flora Charles Dickens has described, seems incapable of such deviousness. To me she's a welcome fresh contrast to the Mrs. Merdles of the novel!

Fairy stories are open to interpretation and ambiguity. I've always believed the shadow to fairly obviously be Arthur though; as Anne and Sara have both said this represents the shadowy figure of the unattainable Arthur, in Amy's mind. She is the industrious little woman, and the great princess is Flora.

It is so poignant that the only person Amy feels she can tell her inner feelings to is Maggy - and even then in disguise. Maggy, of course, is unable to understand any abstract concept, so Amy's great secret remains safe.

Such a clever way to divulge it to us :)

Chapter 25:

We learn that Pancks lives in one room above a debt collector. His name is Mr. Rugg and the house is in Pentonville. Mr. and Miss Anastatia Rugg (his daughter) allow Pancks to share any of their meals he wishes, on Sundays, in the back-parlour. Miss Rugg is a lady who has a little property, owing to the fact that she once successfully sued a baker for a breach of promise of marriage.This has won her some respect in the neighbourhood.

Mr. Pancks does not transact his rent-collecting for Mr. Casby from his home address. However, the narrator tells us that recently “now that he had become a fortune-teller” when he is not employed as “his proprietor’s grubber”, out collecting rents, he has been shut in with Mr. Rugg in his little front-parlour office. We are about to find out why.

John Chivery, the love-lorn swain of Amy, has been mooching about ever since she gently warned him off. Pancks, who has cultivated a friendship with Mr. Chivery the turnkey, now approaches Young John, and sends him on certain errands from time to time. Sometimes these errands last for two or three days; nevertheless Mrs. Chivery is quite pleased about it, as Young John seems a little less disconsolate as a consequence. Also, Mr. Pancks has:

“confidentially agreed to pay her, for the occupation of her son’s time, at the handsome rate of seven and sixpence per day.” If John is not concerned about money, he argues, that doesn’t mean she shouldn’t have it. Whether Mr. Chivery is aware of this is not known, as he:

“kept his mouth as [shut as] he kept the Marshalsea door”.

One Sunday Pancks takes the unusual step of inviting Young John to dinner at Pentonville. A lavish feast is set out, and all the family are aware of the reason for John’s despondency, responding with great sympathy to his introduction as “the young man who loved Miss Dorrit”.

The meal goes well, despite John’s not taking much food, which is found very understandable. It does not matter, as Mr. Pancks and Miss Anastasia Rugg’s appetites more than make up for it:

“Miss Rugg, perhaps making up some of her arrears, likewise took very kindly to the mutton, and it rapidly diminished to the bone. A bread-and-butter pudding entirely disappeared, and a considerable amount of cheese and radishes vanished by the same means. Then came the dessert.”

Before the rum and water, Mr. Pancks takes out his notebook, and copies some entries on to separate pieces of paper. He then reads out what is on each of them, and assigns each to an individual person, as if he is dealing a pack of cards. There is:

“a churchyard in Bedfordshire … an Enquiry in York … a Church in London … a Family Bible (both of which he reserves for himself)… a Clerk at Durham … an old seafaring gentleman at Dunstable … a Stone … and a Still-born Baby.”

It is all very mysterious. Mr. Pancks also allocates each person travelling expenses, at which Young John dolefully says he wishes he could pay these out of his own pocket, as a service to Amy Dorrit. Miss Rugg seems to be the exception in the party, having found John secretly amusing during the meal, and now finding the depths of Young John’s emotions so very funny that:

“she was obliged to effect a precipitate retirement from the company, and to sit upon the stairs until she had had her laugh out.”

And later, when the conspirators are toasting to their plans, Miss Rugg glances at John and becomes:

“so overcome by the contemptible comicality of his disinterestedness as to splutter some ambrosial drops of rum and water around, and withdraw in confusion.”

Pancks, however, seems more sympathetic to Young John’s feelings. His mysterious, unaccountably busy and strange life, also leads to his showing interest in the lame foreigner with the stick, who lives in Bleeding Heart Yard. We know him to be John Baptist Cavalletto, but in the Yard they call him “Mr. Baptist”. It is a hard life for him, as he is penniless with only the clothes he wears, and still getting back the use of his legs. He also has to contend with the general suspicion and prejudice about being a “foreigner”. Yet he remains:

“a chirping, easy, hopeful little fellow … put[ting] as bright a face upon it as if he were in the most flourishing circumstances when he first hobbled up and down the Yard, humbly propitiating the general good-will with his white teeth.”.

Gradually the occupants of Bleeding Heart Yard began to accept this foreigner. They have been carefully trained by the Barnacles and Stiltstalkings:

“that it was a sort of Divine visitation upon a foreigner that he was not an Englishman”, and that all kinds of calamities happened to his country because it did things that England did not, and did not do things that England did.”

Consequently the status quo is that foreigners are not to be trusted, and to be under protection by these two great families is paramount to being under the protection of Providence.

“However, the Bleeding Hearts were kind hearts; and when they saw the little fellow cheerily limping about with a good-humoured face, doing no harm, drawing no knives, committing no outrageous immoralities, living chiefly on farinaceous and milk diet, and playing with Mrs. Plornish’s children of an evening, they began to think that although he could never hope to be an Englishman, still it would be hard to visit that affliction on his head.”

They all begin to treat Mr. Baptist as if he is a small child, kindly teaching him the English names of various objects. Mrs. Plornish appoints herself as a kind of translator, speaking to him loudly in a sort of pidgin English, and gesturing.


Conspirators and Others - James Mahoney

When the days comes for Mr. Pancks to collect the rent, she acts as interpreter, as usual. When he is handed some coins in a scrap of paper, and gestures to say how much there is, Pancks quickly picks up that Mr. Baptist is quick and clever. He has earned money skilfully carving wooden flowers, and Mrs. Plornish tells Pancks that Mr. Clennam also gives him work to do, on occasion.

“Altro”, Mr Baptist says, agreeably, and this becomes a regular greeting between the two, whenever they meet, which brightens Mr. Pancks’s day.

Bionic Jean wrote: "Mona - OK it was Martha - that makes more sense.

I thought you were still talking about the earlier part, and apologising for mentioning his name. I was trying to reassure you that in the comment..."

Italian! That’s right, I was thinking French. Oh my goodness, I’m having a Dickens of a time with this read. I have several questions regarding Chapter 25. I will collect them and ask a little later.

So much mystery woven into this chapter. I am sure the serial readers of the day were on pins and needles to get the next installment and make sense of what is going on in Mr. Rugg's establishment. I have a warm feeling about Pancks, probably because Arthur appears to trust him, and I think whatever he is doing is going to be to Amy's benefit.

Anastasia Rugg is an interesting character. She has earned the respect of the people and the money to buy a bit of property from a breach of promise suit. Not a woman to fool about with--LOL.

Sara, so no one walks all over Miss. Rugg. :))

😃

Characters like Miss Rugg really break up the story with a bit of humour :) Perhaps our subconscious minds are busy working on the mysteries!

Yes, Sara I agree, a month would be a long time to wait after Pancks had announced all those intriguing clues!

Bionic Jean wrote: "....These are both great points! Of course Pancks has been requested specifically by Arthur to do this investigating ... Time will tell, and todays chapter is even more intriguing :)"

Oh gosh, I completely forgot that Arthur asked Pancks to investigate. That makes a difference.

Pancks is an interesting character. I really like him after reading this chapter and hope to see a lot more of him. And a lot more of Jean Baptist.

This is an intriguing chapter leaving me wondering what Pancks is having Young John Chivery investigate. John considers a service to Amy Dorrit. It seems like the investigation will be pulling John more into Amy Dorrit's world when she is trying to push him away.

I'm a tad confused about the money values- I know a pound is about equal to an american doller, but as for pence, shillings guineas ect I am clueless. If someone could tell me how they relate to a pound, that would be greatly appreciated!

Jenny wrote: "I'm a tad confused about the money values- I know a pound is about equal to an american doller, but as for pence, shillings guineas ect I am clueless. If someone could tell me how they relate to a ..."

I agree! I am confused also- thank you for the question!

In Charles Dickens's time it was different from now.

One pound sterling = 20 shillings
One shilling = 12 pence

A guinea was one pound one shilling

Thanks Jean! That clears things up for me!