Victorians! discussion

Chapter 16

After a few unhappy days, Rachel receives her first letter from Luke. It is not exactly a love letter as would please Rachel, but a one more akin to his thoughtless and insensitive personality. Mrs. Ray is much displeased with his tone and manner. But to Rachel, this answers her doubts and she is much contented in the thought that Luke loves her and intends to marry her. Rachel wants to answer this letter but Mrs. Ray doubts its propriety and wants to consult Mr. Comfort!

Mrs. Prime makes another visit to the cottage and Mrs. Ray learns that though Dorothea had accepted Mr. Prong’s proposal, nothing is settled between them. Dorothea is very keen on tying up her money and Mrs. Ray agrees with her. Mrs. Ray doesn’t like the Dorothea-Prong alliance but is too afraid to offend her by saying so.

Chapters 17 and 18

Meanwhile, Tappits carry out a successful campaign in slandering Luke now that he is absent to defend him. Rachel is also dragged into this mud. It was demeaning for Tappits to act in this manner, especially towards Rachel. But Rachel at least has a champion in Mrs. Butler Cornbury which is a relief.

Baselhurst now is in the time for elections to select a new mayor. Mr. Butler Cornbury is running for the office as the Conservative candidate while one Mr. Hart competes with him as the Liberal candidate. Mr. Hart is Jewish and some concerns are made and arguments are raised as to the propriety of electing a Jew to the office.

Tappits’s lies and misrepresentations have now made the whole Baselhurst thinking of Luke Rowan as a scoundrel. Although nobody really likes Mr. Tappit, he is their village man and all their loyalty was with him. Besides, the idea of another brewery is unthinkable.

Chapters 19 and 20

The rumours regarding Luke have reached the ears of Mr. Comfort’s too, and he is made uneasy on Rachel’s behalf. Mr. Comfort visits Bragg’s End Cottage to advise Mrs. Ray on how to deal with Luke’s letter to Rachel. Being clouded in his judgment because of all those ill opinions he hears about Luke, Mr. Comfort advises that Rachel should break the engagement and cease communication with Luke until more about him is known and things relating to brewery business are more settled. Poor Rachel is so broken-hearted. Although she feels rebellious, she cannot go against her dear mother’s wish. She cannot love Luke without her mother’s sanction. So with a heavy heart, she writes to Luke communicating to him the wishes of her mother and Mr. Comfort and the course of action that she is compelled to take.

This was a very sad development. My heart went to Rachel. It is rather unfair that everyone is meddling in Rachel affairs because she is a good obedient girl and that no one dare say anything about Dorothea’s engagement to Mr. Prong even though they don’t approve of it.

I love that Mr. Comfort visits Mrs. Ray especially to warn them about Luke, but the first few minutes is in stead about how wrong Mr. Prong is for Mrs. Prime. Perhaps this suitor has an even worse character and this a more serious problem than the one they are supposed to discuss.

What is your impression of Luke so far - his late letter, lack of romantic words, abrupt departure and short courting with Rachel, etc.

We don’t really know for sure whether he is a questionable person or whether these are all misunderstandings and unfortunate turns of events, do we?

I liked how Trollope highlights many injustices in this section:

-The slamming of Luke and Rachel with no compunction and those who believe it without question. (I was a bit surprised at Mr. Comfort who also goes against Luke merely by listening to gossip. Obviously, vicars are human as we all are.)
-The Tappit’s being probably insecure, immature and not the nicest people have instigated the smear campaign against Luke.
-The anti-Semitic behavior we see.

I am grateful for both Mrs. Butler Cornbury and Mrs. Sturt. We have champions for Rachel and Luke!!!
We shall see how the election goes…having a Mayors Wife on the side of Rachel would not be all bad and would probably further Luke’s case if needed.

I absolutely agree about the comparison between Rachel and Mrs. Prime. Why is it assumed that Mrs. Prime knows her own mind and Rachel doesn’t? And Mr. Comfort did not conceal his dislike for Mr. Prong, yet that statement just seemed to blow out the window.

I am glad that even though Rachel’s return letter was just friendly more than as something to a lover, she was honest and expressed her thoughts to Luke. Knowing Luke, he will not stand by to this and will get to the bottom of it.

I don’t know that I question Luke’s letter as much as everyone else does. Luke is treating Rachel as a friend and trusted confidant. He’s not being a dandy so much as just himself. Trollope tells us that Rachel has no idea what to expect in a love letter, but how can assume that Luke does? Some people are not that good at writing letters or putting into expression certain sentiments, but he is being honets. I thought Luke said more in confiding in Rachel than his lack of sentiments did. In this age, women are not looked upon as an equal, yet Luke is treating her as such. He also respects her and her opinion.

The events, especially in this section are really quite frustrating. And the reader is not as hopeful as one was. But given the personalities of many of the parties, it is not surprising. Now the anxiety grows for the next sections…

Brenda wrote: "I liked how Trollope highlights many injustices in this section:

-The slamming of Luke and Rachel with no compunction and those who believe it without question. (I was a bit surprised at Mr. Comf..."

I liked what you've said about Luke's letter, Brenda. From the beginning Luke wanted Rachel to be his friend so it wouldn't be unusual for Luke to write such a letter to Rachel. Although the letter may lack loving sentiments, it confides in her everything that matters to Luke, everything that is important.

I completely forgot Mrs. Sturt. Thanks for reminding me of her. Yes, she too is a champion of Rachel and Luke.

I'm not so confident as you are, however, about how Luke would react to Rachel's letter. Luke is an impulsive and headstrong fellow. He might take it negatively thinking that Rachel has no confidence in him and is ready to give him up submitting to the will of the others. I fear for Rachel. There will be a lot of unhappiness ahead of her.

Charlotte wrote: "I love that Mr. Comfort visits Mrs. Ray especially to warn them about Luke, but the first few minutes is in stead about how wrong Mr. Prong is for Mrs. Prime. Perhaps this suitor has an even worse ..."

As I understand Mr. Comfort's objection to Mr. Prong is based on their different perspectives on religious issues. I couldn't gather any other.

Brenda wrote: "II don’t know that I question Luke’s letter as much as everyone else does. Luke is treating Rachel as a friend and trusted confidant. He’s not being a dandy so much as just himself. Trollope tells us that Rachel has no idea what to expect in a love letter, but how can assume that Luke does? Some people are not that good at writing letters or putting into expression certain sentiments, but he is being honets. I thought Luke said more in confiding in Rachel than his lack of sentiments did. In this age, women are not looked upon as an equal, yet Luke is treating her as such. He also respects her and her opinion.."

I agree with you-I thought his letter was charming and suggests he likes as well as loves Rachel and sees her is some ways as his partner as well as his love-jokingly saying he will send her out to check on malt and hops prices around Devonshire.

I also think that Rachel is lucky to have both Mrs Cornbury and Mrs Sturt on her side-between them I have every confidence that they will sort out the truth of Luke's character.

Rachel's letter was masterful-she makes very clear without saying so that she loves Luke (going to sit on the stile and reminding him of their conversation there) and that her family and friends are telling her to put a hold or a stop on the engagement for now.

On a side note, is this novel also a veiled complaint against bad beer in rural England? Trollope does stress how bad Tappit's beer is on numerous occasions, I can't help but think that he is making a bit of a point here!

Piyangie wrote: He might take it negatively thinking that Rachel has no confidence in him and is ready to give him up submitting to the will of the others. I fear for Rachel. There will be a lot of unhappiness ahead of her.

Thanks for bursting my bubble. LOL Just joking! That is true... I was thinking with my rose colored glasses. And didn't Trollope already tell us Rachel's happiest day was behind her? I just can't believe its true though... I'm going to hold out! :)))

Brenda wrote: " Piyangie wrote: He might take it negatively thinking that Rachel has no confidence in him and is ready to give him up submitting to the will of the others. I fear for Rachel. There will be a lot o..."

Ha ha. :) But honestly, I want Luke to contradict me. :) :)

In echoing some of Brenda’s comments, these five chapters seemed to me to have a theme of how prejudices can distort the truth and lead to unfair opinions becoming seen as facts. A whispered comment in the pub that Luke’s wine bill had not been ticked off as paid led to the whole town denouncing him as a scoundrel in financial difficulties who leaves debts behind. Even the most reasonable people in the community are swayed into this way of thinking because Mr. Tappit is seen a s a ‘good’ man and one of them, unlike the outsider Luke.
Luke Rowan is on a hiding to nothing in Baslehurst. Even with the support of Mrs. Carbury and Mrs. Sturt, Luke and Rachel have no future there, so even if he does return he will have to take her away and build their future elsewhere. I can’t see how he can turn opinion against the Tappits, particularly with his attitude. Luke says in his letter he will have to ruin Mr. Tappit. I can’t see that as a way of gaining favour in Baslehurst. The disgraceful anti-semitic comments exhibited by Mrs. Carbury and others only emphasised the deep prejudices that prevail in the town. However, I think Luke might try to take them on, with disastrous consequences.
Luke’s ‘love’ letter reflects the man himself and his ego. Perhaps the most telling words in the letter were ‘I told you, you remember, that you should be my friend, and now I mean to have my own way.’ Most of the letter is about him and instructions for Rachel. I can’t find anything in the letter that asks about Rachel herself, how she is, what she has been doing etc. He wants her as his friend and wife but will he really be influenced by her in any way?
Has Trollope got Mr. Comfort’s name wrong? He has certainly done the opposite of comforting Rachel and Mrs. Ray is right to be annoyed with him for providing her with conflicting advice.
Rachel has always tried to do the right thing whilst respecting the advice of those closest to her. Her anger at the latest turn of events is justified and, in writing the reply to Luke’s letter, she seems to have arrived at a tipping point where she might do something drastic. Whilst she is right to stick by Luke, I was a little concerned that she considered running off to London. Her sense of propriety and loyalty to her mother prevailed but is that now wearing thin? Rachel undoubtedly loves Luke with all her heart, but he has become her whole world as if nothing else matters. She even thinks her mother has ‘deserted’ her.

Trev wrote: "In echoing some of Brenda’s comments, these five chapters seemed to me to have a theme of how prejudices can distort the truth and lead to unfair opinions becoming seen as facts. A whispered commen..."

I like your observation on Mr. Comfort, Trev. Mr. Comfort is no comfort to Mrs. Ray or Rachel at present. Was the choice of his name is an attempt at satire?

I also agree with you that Luke won't have an easy time if he returns to Baselhurst. But I doubt if any hostility will bother him so much as to stop him from coming back. As you've correctly said, he is a man with an ego. He is also a man who values justice and he will see that justice is done by him and Rachel. And I believe he has a good legal claim and that Mr. Tapitt's obstinacy may prove disadvantageous for him.

Trev wrote: "In echoing ..."

Thanks for reminding me of Luke’s words in his letter. Yes, they were egocentric. I felt a bit scared that he was being possesive and he was trying to manipulate Rachel.

I think Mr. Comfort is right in giving that advice. He bases it on the things he knows, even if it is gossip, I think he is being cautious. Even we readers, it seems, are not at all sure yet if Luke is reliable or not, even if we know that he did not leave debts behind him and we know what really happened with Mr. Tappit. It is better for Rachel to wait and see, I hope Luke will be back soon to clarify everything. I am curious to see how Luke will react to her letter.

I agree with Trev about the theme of prejudices in these chapters, as well as the numerous double standards for behavior. I also feel Luke's letter was drafted in a state of paranoia, giving it a harsher, vindictive tone. It also alludes to his current living situation (i.e., Inns, box cars). In any case, he should have considered his audience.

"II don’t know that I question Luke’s letter as much as everyone else does. Luke is treating Rachel as a friend and trusted confidant. He’s not being a dandy so much as just himself. ..."

Your take on the hops thing is interesting because initially, I thought Luke came across somewhat domineering. However, in retrospect, I agree with you and see Luke's transparency about his business affairs as a positive thing and a rare attribute for a suitor of that time. On the opposite spectrum, Mr. Tappit can not imagine a world where a woman can openly discuss politics, much less business.

I didn´t like Luke´s letter at all - no talk of love, and I wonder what he´s really doing. On the other hand it´s unfair to say he has debts and only fights with Tapitt.
Poor Rachel is dragged into this all, and even Comfort turns to another opinion, after having heard about the slander.
I was horrified by the anti-semistism, but there was at least the doctor who defended Hart.
I liked that Mrs. Cornbury was on Rachel´s side, and tried to find out the truth about Luke. Mrs. Sturt is also a nice character.