Reading the Detectives discussion

Welcome to our second Georgette Heyer mystery: Why Shoot a Butler? first published in 1933.

On a dark night, along a lonely country road, barrister Frank Amberley stops to help a young lady in distress and discovers a sports car with a corpse behind the wheel. The girl protests her innocence and Amberley believes her--at least until he gets drawn into the mystery and the evidence incriminating Shirley Brown begins to add up.

Why Shoot a Butler? is an English country-house murder with a twist. In this beloved classic by Georgette Heyer, the butler is the victim, every clue complicates the puzzle, and the bumbling police are well-meaning but completely baffled. Fortunately, amateur sleuth Amberley is as brilliant as he is arrogant as he ferrets out the desperate killer--even though this time he's not sure he wants to know the truth...

Please feel free to post spoilers in this thread.

One of the very few Heyers I have only read once.

Judy said "I will talk about the plot later over in the spoiler thread, but what does anyone think of Amberley? I think he is supposed to be a bit like Sherlock Holmes with his careless brilliance, but I do find him extremely arrogant, as many of the other characters do too, to be fair! "
I ended up hoping he'd be wrong, just to bring him down a peg! I agree he was supposed to be Holmes-like but for some reason he was much less likable.

Not just me then, Margaret - that would have been an interesting twist if he had been wrong!

I'm not sure what it was about Amberley, as Holmes must be equally arrogant and is certainly just as rude to police officers, yet, as you say, is more likeable. Maybe because Holmes has his friend Watson telling us his story?

Judy wrote: "Not just me then, Margaret - that would have been an interesting twist if he had been wrong!

I'm not sure what it was about Amberley, as Holmes must be equally arrogant and is certainly just as r..."

Yes, I agree - Gubbins, while providing some comic relief, isn’t “in on” Amberley’s theories, so not an effective Watson. And Frank and Shirley as a couple aren’t appealing because they’re both prickly and secretive. Also, this one seems to go on forever - even speeding up the Audible, the “tense, suspenseful” climax goes on for chapters - at that point, I didn’t care! Unlike Carol, I foolishly have read this one a few times - never again!

Susan in NC wrote: "Yes, I agree - Gubbins, while providing some comic relief, isn’t “in on” Amberley’s theories, so not an effective Watson. And Frank and Shirley as a couple aren’t appealing because they’re both prickly and secretive...."

That's very true! I think Frank's secretiveness is a huge problem because it leads to Mark's death - he doesn't bother to let the police know *why* they need to watch him closely and so they don't realise the importance until it is too late. He also allows police to waste their time following and suspecting his "man" (sorry, can't remember what this character's name is).

Judy wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "Yes, I agree - Gubbins, while providing some comic relief, isn’t “in on” Amberley’s theories, so not an effective Watson. And Frank and Shirley as a couple aren’t appealing beca..."

Wow, you’re right, I hadn’t thought about it in relation to Mark’s death, but you’re right! Mark may have been a mess, and certainly wasn’t mourned, but very careless on Frank’s part.

Also, as you say, he finds the inspector an oaf and doesn’t want to deal with him, so intentionally sets him off chasing shadows, wasting police time. I suspect he must have been competent at some aspects of his job, so have him go do that investigation work, rather than serve as a butt of Frank’s snarky humor!

Just struck me, does Mark's death mean Shirley comes in for the whole inheritance, once the will has been stuck back together that is? I think I got slightly lost at this point.

I wondered about that, too, don’t think it was explained...

Judy wrote: "Just struck me, does Mark's death mean Shirley comes in for the whole inheritance, once the will has been stuck back together that is? I think I got slightly lost at this point."

I know I felt at the time that Mark's death was because alive he would be a burden for Frank & Shirley. A general spoiler for GH mysteries (view spoiler)[ with her mysteries GH remains first and foremost a romance writer. It is one of her weaknesses as a mystery writer. (hide spoiler)]

Judy wrote: "Just struck me, does Mark's death mean Shirley comes in for the whole inheritance, once the will has been stuck back together that is? I think I got slightly lost at this point."

It would depend on whether or not Mark had made a will. By the time he died the grandfather's inheritance will (in law) have passed to him, and he will have been free to dispose of it as he wished. It's unlikely he made a will (he's not the type) so Shirley will inherit from him, as next of kin.

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Judy wrote: "Just struck me, does Mark's death mean Shirley comes in for the whole inheritance, once the will has been stuck back together that is? I think I got slightly lost at this point."

I kn..."

Very good point!

Rosina wrote: "Judy wrote: "Just struck me, does Mark's death mean Shirley comes in for the whole inheritance, once the will has been stuck back together that is? I think I got slightly lost at this point."

It w..."

Thank you - felt kind of sorry for poor Mark, he definitely seemed a nonentity.

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "I know I felt at the time that Mark's death was because alive he would be a burden for Frank & Shirley. ..."

Good point, it wouldn't add to their wedded bliss if they were having to cope with him. Mark seems to have wandered in from another book, I thought - his drink problem feels like rather a serious issue for such a very light and romantic detective story.

I don't see Frank and Shirley as a very well-suited couple, I must say, although obviously they are bound to end up together. They don't have the charm that I've come to expect from the few Heyer books I've read so far.

Also, how many Heyer books involve bull terriers? I have come across at least a couple featuring these dogs, and I noticed you mentioned them in your review, Carol!

Judy wrote: "Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "
Good point, it wouldn't add to their wedded bliss if the..."

I know at the time (I read this one over five years ago) that I thought they were both such horrible characters that they deserved each other!

I don't remember GH mysteries the way I remember her romances but Death in the Stocks definitely had bull terriers. GH herself was a dog lover.

Thank you Carol - it must have been Death in the Stocks where I came across the bull terriers previously.

Mathilda in Envious Casca kept bull terriers, but she had left them at home when she went away for Christmas.

Thanks Rosina, I was probably remembering Envious Casca too. I have a feeling that no character who loves bull terriers is likely to be a villain in a Heyer novel!

Judy wrote: "Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "I know I felt at the time that Mark's death was because alive he would be a burden for Frank & Shirley. ..."

Good point, it wouldn't add to their wedded bliss if the..."

Agreed, about Frank and Shirley- I know that fighting like cats and dogs, then falling into each other’s arms is a hackneyed romance trope, but I’ve always been skeptical about the likelihood of longtime domestic bliss for such pairings!

I have to admit, the actions and POV of the bull terrier in this one, especially at the end, made him one of the more likable characters...

P.S., just struck me, I suppose the bull terrier in this novel may be called "Bill" after villainous Bill Sikes in Oliver Twist, owner of Bull's-eye, who is usually assumed to be a bull terrier.

Susan in NC wrote: "I have to admit, the actions and POV of the bull terrier in this one, especially at the end, made him one of the more likable characters..."

And portrayed to much greater depth...

I've just done a quick Google rather than dragging out my GH bios, & this article mentions that the Rougiers (GH's married name) owned a bull terrier.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/entert...

Googling also shows that a bull terrier also appears in an early GH romantic short story https://janeaustensworld.wordpress.co...

Warning; this is a very early GH work & isn't very good.

Rosina wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "I have to admit, the actions and POV of the bull terrier in this one, especially at the end, made him one of the more likable characters..."

And portrayed to much greater depth..."

Lol! ;)

Thank you for explaining the inheritance, Rosina. I don't think it seems very likely that Mark would have made a will!

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "I've just done a quick Google rather than dragging out my GH bios, & this article mentions that the Rougiers (GH's married name) owned a bull terrier.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/entert......"

A-ha, the mystery of the prevalent bull terrier solved! Thank you, Carol.

Thank you, Carol. What a great name GH's bull terrier had - Jonathan Velhurst Viking. Just imagine shouting that when your dog is running around a park.

I was just wondering whether the title of this book was deliberately taking off from the cliche of "The butler did it" - but I'm not sure when that really came in? If anyone knows, please avoid mentioning which novels featured murderous butlers, or use spoiler tags. :)

Still with butlers, the servants are not very individual in this book, I thought, except that everyone is suspicious of Collins! Something of a missed chance for Heyer in a novel where servants take a more central role than usual in mysteries?

Having just finished I can answer the will question:

Quoting "in favour of his grandson Mark, or failing him, of his granddaughter Shirley".

Sandy wrote: "Having just finished I can answer the will question:

Quoting "in favour of his grandson Mark, or failing him, of his granddaughter Shirley"."

Mark was alive at the time of his grandfather's death, so will be presumed to have inherited at that time. Only if he'd died before his grandfather will the 'failing him' come into play.

I thought Heyer missed an opportunity with the aunt. She would have made a great Miss Marple, twittering around in the background, ignoring the murder but having all the answers.

Rosina wrote: "Sandy wrote: "Having just finished I can answer the will question:

Quoting "in favour of his grandson Mark, or failing him, of his granddaughter Shirley"."

Mark was alive at the time of his grand..."

You're right; my mistake.

One of my problems with Frank (and there were many) was that he was rather cruel to the one policeman he tolerated.

Sandy wrote: "One of my problems with Frank (and there were many) was that he was rather cruel to the one policeman he tolerated."

He can't resist the quick superior dig, can he? And it's not the friendly insults of equals, since the Sergeant can't respond in kind. Even his jibes at his 'friend' Corky seem rooted in a sense of his own superiority, not affection.

Sandy wrote: "Rosina wrote: "Sandy wrote: "Having just finished I can answer the will question:

Quoting "in favour of his grandson Mark, or failing him, of his granddaughter Shirley"."

Mark was alive at the ti..."

There was a Poirot mystery where the heir to a fortune had made a jokey will while drunk leaving everything to one of his friends. At the time he didn't have much, but the friend kept it against the time his rich uncle died ...

Sandy wrote: "One of my problems with Frank (and there were many) was that he was rather cruel to the one policeman he tolerated."

could Frank be the least likable "hero" in all of Heyer? He is sure in the running.

He's definitely not very likeable, I agree, Jackie. I kept hoping against hope that Shirley wouldn't fall into his arms at the end - not that I liked her much either!

Judy wrote: "He's definitely not very likeable, I agree, Jackie. I kept hoping against hope that Shirley wouldn't fall into his arms at the end - not that I liked her much either!"

She was Too Stupid To Live - people being murdered all around her, and she still goes, alone, to a lonely house ...

And I found the bolted-on foible that prevented the killer from actually killing her immediately rather incredible. It was clearly there just so we could have the thrillerish chase, just as the boat being out of fuel allowed the final scene to shift from the seaside to the house. And then it happened off stage, to be narrated like the bloody murders in Greek tragedy.

there is a lot to dislike in this book, but I did find the climax thrilling. the long car chase and, at the very end, her face just barely above water!

Jackie wrote: "there is a lot to dislike in this book, but I did find the climax thrilling. the long car chase and, at the very end, her face just barely above water!"

I sympathized with the poor cop who feared for his life during that ride. I had fun reading the book despite its problems and Heyer remains a favorite of mine for the Regency romances. Many of those romantic couple are just as unlikely, but written more convincingly.

I believe there to be just two redeeming features of this book. Well, that is too harsh... My two favorite things then:

1. Lady Matthews. She exhibits kindness to family and friends, and courtesy to all others, in a manner worth modeling. I liked Heyer's ability to provide Aunt Marion with her own terse, calm, and short-sentenced voice.

2. A few funny lines, such as; "Everyone was in the wrong, principally Frank, who persisted in meddling in what did not concern him. This is what came of it. Dogs in bedrooms."

Maybe I can add Sir Humphrey to my shortlist of the book's tolerable amusements.

All in all, Felicity, Aunt Marion and Uncle made for more pleasurable reading than the mystery itself.

BTW, This is my first Goodreads group and I hope I can contribute something of value. Could someone share a quick explanation of what is meant by "Buddy Read"? Thank you.

My take on buddy reads:

They are a bit more informal than our yearly challenge (currently miscellaneous Christies) and our monthly read that is selected by a vote.

They are usually series that we are reading our way through slowly. The buddy reads are (often) suggested by a member and other members will join in if interested. We have several active series at this time. Feel free to suggest your favorite.

There a master list of upcoming reads.

Chris, I agree with you about Lady Mathews, she's a wonderful character.
and since you are new, let me point out that I have enjoyed posting on old threads (maybe not in this group specifically?) and have had people chime in as well so you don't have to stick to the current threads.
Did you know there is a Heyer group?
we recently finished Duplicate Death, which for me is a tie with Why Shoot a Butler for least liked Georgette Heyer.
ETA: I find there are fewer people, generally, in the Buddy reads.

Sandy wrote: "My take on buddy reads:,,,"

Thank you, Sandy, I'll be doing some exploring. It's nice to have the sense that it's all pretty low-key and I'm not going to make any big faux pas.

Jackie wrote: "Chris, I agree with you about Lady Mathews, she's a wonderful character.
and since you are new, let me point out that I have enjoyed posting on old threads (maybe not in this group specifically?) ..."

Jackie, thank you, poking around in some old threads on past reads sounds like a good way to learn and have some fun. I'll look at the Heyer group too but hope I find a Dorothy Sayers group along the way. But, Georgette must be popular for a reason, so I will have to try another, It's good to learn that they can only get better than Why Shoot a Butler.

Hi Chris

I moderate the Georgette Heyer Fans Group & you are more than welcome to join us. Next month we are reading my favourite of GH's Regencies, Cotillion

& I don't agree with Jackie - Duplicate Death is nothing like as bad as Why Shoot a Butler! I quite enjoy that title.

Like Christie, GH had a long & prolific career. & like Christie, GH turned out a fair few duds. I'm GH's biggest fan, but she also wrote some of the worst books I have ever read.

& if you poke through the old threads in this group you will find a lot of Sayers titles have been read right here. :)

Sayers was our yearly challenge in 2016 so there will be comments on all the books in the 'challenge' section.

& I don't agree with Jackie - Duplicate Death is nothing like as bad as Why Shoot a Butler! I quite enjoy that title

I actually liked it a lot more this time around, now that I think about it.

Chris, welcome, glad you have joined.

The full list of books we have coming up is here:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Thank you, Judy.