The Best Of... discussion

There's a thread re "Wuthering Heights" that's over 200 posts and active discussing Heathcliff's ethnicity.

WTF?

Bronte gave a vivid description that also left Heathcliff's origins ultimately a mystery. It's a novel rife with the inexplicable, things left unsaid.

But here is a group of readers who seem determined to determine the exact shade of Heathcliff's complexion and the origins of his DNA?

Is it just me, or does it seem a little . . . well, kinda unconsciously (or consciously) racist? That "let's make the villain have dark skin" reaction, a desire to make him different — from the other pale characters?

People need an answer to this stuff for some reason, I liken it to the Is Nick Carraway Gay thread. I never read Wuthering Heights- maybe people are trying to find racism in it? I think many readers want to find a main character either gay or racist or a different race- Geesh isn't t it the human race anyways?
I wonder if students are taught to do this, or they have trouble with time periods in literature. If I read the book I could probably comment better.

It's worth reading, Karen.

Definitely a pre-psychology psychological study!

One answer I got to my question about why does it matter was:

" ...ı think a darker Heathcliff makes a different reading experience. It makes it less easy to casually romanticize him. ..."

Because dark-complexioned *foreigners* are less romantic?

Renee wrote: "It's worth reading, Karen.

Definitely a pre-psychology psychological study!

One answer I got to my question about why does it matter was:

" ...ı think a darker Heathcliff makes a different rea..."

That's bad, and so untrue!!

I think it's untrue for you, and me, and hopefully the majority of readers, but, it's terribly subjective to — and revealing of — personal prejudices, conscious or not.

Heathcliff's a street urchin from Liverpool, which is pretty much what I am. None of yer posh Lennon & McCartneys. But I am a Dickey-Sam - which I guess he was, too, the nob 'ed.

Kinda like Huckabee calling Jay Z Beyonce's pimp. Who hears that dog whistle?

E.D. wrote: "Kinda like Huckabee calling Jay Z Beyonce's pimp. Who hears that dog whistle?"

Oh, no . . . that's too stupid even for Rush!

Don't really blame them for being curios and discussing it, but it's odd that it's gone on for this long...and some parts of the discussion have been a bit awkward.

Karen wrote: "People need an answer to this stuff for some reason, I liken it to the Is Nick Carraway Gay thread. I never read Wuthering Heights- maybe people are trying to find racism in it? I think many reader..."

Yeah, some people do, even if it's a stupid, reductionist label (which bigotry is, no?). In one thread about Pride & Prejudice, there are women who insist that Elizabeth Bennett is simply a smart-ass 'gold-digger.'

I read that thread until I couldn't take anymore. That's another one that makes me realize that reading is not enough to keep some people from being . . . that.

Kallie wrote;
"Yeah, some people do, even if it's a stupid, reductionist label (which bigotry is, no?). In one thread about Pride & Prejudice, there are women who insist that Elizabeth Bennett is simply a smart-ass 'gold-digger.' "

Ugh, I know- talk about mis-interpreting a novel!!

Renee wrote: "I read that thread until I couldn't take anymore. That's another one that makes me realize that reading is not enough to keep some people from being . . . that."

Stupid

Karen wrote: "In one thread about Pride & Prejudice, there are women who insist that Elizabeth Bennett is simply a smart-ass 'gold-digger.'"

An argument that is not altogether at odds with the text. Late on in the story, when Elizabeth and Darcy's relationship has come out, Jane asks her sister at what point she had realised her feelings for him were love... and gets the reply that it was as soon as she saw Pemberley.

Of course, the spunky girl then claims she's joking. But there's many a true word, n'est pas?

Philip wrote: "Karen wrote: "In one thread about Pride & Prejudice, there are women who insist that Elizabeth Bennett is simply a smart-ass 'gold-digger.'"

An argument that is not altogether at odds with the tex..."

Well, Kallie actually wrote that, the problem I have with the statement is that Elizabeth Bennett is "simply" a smart-ass gold digger. I think there was more depth to her character than that.

But to me a gold digger marries for money and has little feeling for the person they marry. I don't think they would refuse the wealthy Mr. Darcy's first proposal and express negative thoughts about his character, as EB did. So it's a term that doesn't fit that story.

Kallie wrote: "But to me a gold digger marries for money and has little feeling for the person they marry. I don't think they would refuse the wealthy Mr. Darcy's first proposal and express negative thoughts abou..."

Yes that's true! It has been years since I've read it, and forgot that She had refused his proposal the first time.

I don't think she is a gold digger, but she's not above a little plotting and neither is she disinterested by riches.

She takes part in the scheme that gets her sister ensconced at Mr Bingley's house, thereby gaining herself a residency there as Jane recovers from her chill.

She refuses Mr Collins's offer, which is only the prospect of swopping places with her mama on her father's death. Collins is neither a smart enough person, nor does he offer her anything other than an escape from poverty. She holds out for something better.

Elizabeth is the first of the sisters to be seduced by Mr Wickham; but hearing his hard-luck story she doesn't let her heart go to her head. Once again, she can do better.

Her refusal of Darcy's first offer is, of course, uncalculated. He more or less says that she is beneath him and that an alliance with her family would be mortifying. How could she accept such an offer? Darcy might as well be asking if he may tie her up and whip her (like the basic premise of the "Fifty shades of Grey" franchise).

But the prospect of riches lingers, so that when her aunt and uncle take her on holiday, she cannot resist the temptation to see Darcy's house for herself. This leads to the chance meeting with him that the story pivots on.

So, having Elizabeth refer to seeing Pemberley (in answer to sister Jane's question about her feelings for Darcy) Jane Austen is directing the reader back to the crux.

Philip wrote: "I don't think she is a gold digger, but she's not above a little plotting and neither is she disinterested by riches.

She takes part in the scheme that gets her sister ensconced at Mr Bingley's ho..."

Yes true, well thought out Philip. Haven't read 50 Shades- for some strange reason being whipped does not appeal to me.

I just looked at the first couple of chapters to see what all the fuss was about. But it was too badly written for me to go on, so I'm still pretty puzzled.

My main problem with that thread, which compared P&P to Wuthering Heights (why???), and another called something like 'how can anyone like this piece of shit,' was the tendency to take the story out of its historic and cultural context and judge the characters based on I don't know what -- certainly not any coherent set of superior contemporary values, or the value of brilliant writing.

Talking of taking Pride & Prejudice out of context, I penned this little piece, which might give you a titter...

http://downwritefiction.blogspot.com....

Karen wrote: "Yes true, well thought out Philip. Haven't read 50 Shades- for some strange reason being whipped does not appeal to me.
..."

I think I would likely rather be whipped than have to read 50 Shades.

Renee wrote: "Karen wrote: "Yes true, well thought out Philip. Haven't read 50 Shades- for some strange reason being whipped does not appeal to me.
..."

I think I would likely rather be whipped than have to re..."

Ha! Renee, you are a card (having called you that, I feel obliged figure out where the expression comes from).

So here is the Urban Dictionary def:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define...

I once walked into a BDSM club/bar in Oslo without knowing it. An unforgettable experience, to say the least.

Philip wrote: "I just looked at the first couple of chapters to see what all the fuss was about. But it was too badly written for me to go on, so I'm still pretty puzzled."

But it's funny! Very poorly written!

Paul Martin wrote: "I once walked into a BDSM club/bar in Oslo without knowing it. An unforgettable experience, to say the least."

Tell us more.

Renee wrote: "I think I would likely rather be whipped than have to read 50 Shades."

But whipping hurts, I only read a few pages of 50 Shades, so bad it was funny.

Paul Martin wrote: "I once walked into a BDSM club/bar in Oslo without knowing it. An unforgettable experience, to say the least."

LOL! Bet it was.

A guy at the gym kept calling me "Lady Heather" (from the CSI tv series). I told him if he didn't stop I'd have to hurt him . . .

Went right over his head.

I didn't notice at first. But after a while, people started dressing up in leather and stuff. We didn't want to rush out, so we just stayed. We realized something was wrong when they brought out a wooden X and tied a man, wearing minimal clothing, to it. After the 10 first lashed we decided that maybe we should move on.

Shame, the beer was cheap, only 10 $.

Maybe if you'd had a few more cheap beers you wouldn't have noticed anymore?

Or cared, anyway? :D

Haha, maybe not, but I've never been much of a binger anyway!

Renee wrote: "Paul Martin wrote: "I once walked into a BDSM club/bar in Oslo without knowing it. An unforgettable experience, to say the least."

LOL! Bet it was.

A guy at the gym kept calling me "Lady Heather"..."

Ohhhhh, he's not a catch.

Paul Martin wrote: "I didn't notice at first. But after a while, people started dressing up in leather and stuff. We didn't want to rush out, so we just stayed. We realized something was wrong when they brought out a ..."

Lol! I'm glad I wasn't there, I drink lots of coffee and I would have been nervous.

Philip wrote: "Talking of taking Pride & Prejudice out of context, I penned this little piece, which might give you a titter...

http://downwritefiction.blogspot.com......."

It did give me a bit of a titter.

But now I'm thinking somebody out there will do a version of "Pride & Prejudice" set in a dungeon, perhaps in Oslo, and make a killing.

Philip wrote: "But now I'm thinking somebody out there will do a version of "Pride & Prejudice" set in a dungeon, perhaps in Oslo, and make a killing."

With sex toys.