SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Come talk about all the things!

A few questions to get this started:

1. What did you think of how the issues were handled?
2. What did you think of the world?
3. What worked or didn't for you?
4. Overall thoughts?

Non-spoiler thread here: First impressions

Did anyone else get Into the Drowning Deep feels? Not because the books are similar at all, but because of sea monsters and sign language? I haven't thought of that book in ages, but it immediately popped into my head when listening to this.

That's my full comment :D

No but now I’m sure I will!

Anna wrote: "Did anyone else get Into the Drowning Deep feels? Not because the books are similar at all, but because of sea monsters and sign language? I haven't thought of that book in ages, bu..."

Yes! I actually found this book via Into the Drowning Deep.

Btw, do we know if Drowning Deep is ever getting a sequel?

Did anyone else experience this one more as a sci-fi novel than a fantasy one? I kept thinking of the gods as having a rational rather than a magical or supernatural origin.

I finished last night and I could admire the writing and the way it's been put together, but also found the abusive relationship at its center and the horror at the end to be almost unreadable. If Quest had been the protagonist, on the other hand... That I would have loved.

Anna wrote: "Did anyone else get Into the Drowning Deep feels? Not because the books are similar at all, but because of sea monsters and sign language? I haven't thought of that book in ages, bu..."

I hope that's the only similarity ... ^^'. That book was so bad.

I did not get any Drowning Deep vibes lol but also I try not to compare anything I enjoy to things I do not.

Travis, aw, sorry to have put you through that! I did try to warn folks! Was it just too much or did you not think it was handled honestly/respectfully? I did think the gods felt a lot more rational, but that was part of good world building to me, that things so integrated into the fabric of their home had so many layers of myth and reality.

I wouldn't compare the two books at all, I was just reminded of it because of the two things I mentioned.

Alabaster wrote: "do we know if Drowning Deep is ever getting a sequel?"

I don't know, but if someone else does, please let's talk about it in the Drowning Deep threads: First impressions & Final thoughts

Allison wrote: "Travis, aw, sorry to have put you through that! I did try to warn folks!."

You're not to blame! :)

I think it was handled well and realistically -- maybe too much so! Like I just kept hoping that Jelt would be able to break free even as -- from the moment the abuse dynamic abuse was introduced -- I knew that we were in for a cycle of repetitions.

Have not read Into the Drowning Deep but really enjoyed this one!

I was endlessly frustrated by what a jerk Jelt was, but the world-building totally made up for it for me.

Definitely felt a bit more sci-fi than fantasy to me, too - it was a fantasy world but everything was kind of more science-based than magical, which I rather enjoyed.

My full review is here: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Finished.

The worldbuilding was a lot better than lots of so-called adult Fantasy I've read in the last months. The idea of the loss of gods and therefore religion, the fate of the priests because of that and the idea of the deep sea under the sea was wonderful! This is what I long for in a well considered SFF book.

Learning that the book is marketed for young readers the plot, world and writing puts it above other books I've read for this target audience.

On the other hand because of that I was bothered by the handling of the abusive relationship. It was realistic, no question, and in a book meant for adult readers I would have been okay with it, cause I assume we all know how unhealthy Hark's constant excuses for his 'friend' are. Yet in the light of this being meant for young people who only start to realise the traps of social interactions and need a strong lead and guidance for setting their own personal borders I found the handling sub optimal.

Gabi wrote: "Learning that the book is marketed for young readers"

I don't know if it is marketed that way? Lots of people just think it's MG/YA, because that's what her previous books have been.

It is marketed YA, says so on the jacket.
My libraries have shelved it both YA and Juv.
In my not so humble opinion, it reads as one of the better Juv. I've read (and I've read, gosh, at least a thousand by now). Age 11-13 core demographic.

But yes I do think it's very well done. It's a lot more interesting than any number of so-called adult books I've read, and I don't mean just chick-lit or mm pb thrillers.

I thought the toxic friendship was handled carefully and is something that is important to share with youth. So many kids who are working out their own identity go through a period of doing things that are dangerous just to fit in, or just to show loyalty, or just because another kid is charismatic. This shows them what a bad friendship looks like and how to get out of it....

I am not going to be giving it the full five stars, though. At the beginning there is just So. Much. Telling. We're told over and over again about Hark's conflicted motivations and loyalties, for example.

For those who think Hark shouldn't be the narrator, who else should? He's the only witness in common to these events, after all. And he's the one who becomes the story-keeper for the Myriad, as is foreshadowed several times during the book and confirmed at the end of the long Epilogue.

Cheryl wrote: "It is marketed YA, says so on the jacket."

OK, good to know. I've only seen people talking about it as her first adult novel, or "more adult" than before, so I had no idea what the publisher was putting it out as.

I saw Allison referring to it as marketed for younger readers.

yeah, it's published through Tors teen imprint and was on the ballot for last year's younger fiction award. but for me this book is a great example of why I don't understand age classifications. I'd give Cerulean Sea to most kids before I gave them this. I think this one, though important, needs an adult to help explain things, when I consider most of the people under 16 I know.

Otoh, do we need to assign an age level to it? We don't assign age level to A Christmas Carol or The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, do we? Not saying this is as good as those, but saying there are clearly precedents, other books that transcend....

Cheryl, I agree! I don't think age "genres" add much and only confuse things--like all those movies from the 50s and 60s I DEFINITELY shouldn't have watched when I did but were rated PG because MPAA wasn't a thing when they came out.

Moving past that, I think this is a very well written (I actually prefer this to Dickens--thank goodness we aren't in the trend of paying by the word anymore!) and that the themes were so so well done. The line between abuse and support, the conflation of one good deed for a million IOUs... it hit me right in the gut!

Jelts treatment of Hark is a very hard thing to listen too. Makes me physically tense

(Never mind Dickens in general. His short stories, Christmas Carol and The Magic Fishbone, at least, are not wordy but fun.)

Rachel, yes. That's the main theme, isn't it?

In my opinion, Hark has a point when he tells himself that Jelt is right to challenge him. Hark is capable of more than he knows that he is, as Jelt says repeatedly.

Now of course Jelt takes it much much too far. Jelt is a bad guy, Hark is a good guy, I won't argue that point. But Hark, like us readers, *grows* by being challenged. Whether one is a teen, like Hark, or a retiree, like me, growth is important.

And so is loyalty. It's not just the two of them, but the whole community of orphans that have the code of loyalty. And Rigg's crew is like a close family, too.

So the point of consideration, imo, for the reader, is just how far should one go for a friend, or a brother. How far could one go?

Honestly, I'd like to think that I could have been brave enough for all the schemes up to the point where Quest tried to burn the Heart in the fireplace. That really would have been a better place to stop things, imo.

(Btw, The House in the Cerulean Sea is another story that transcends age levels imo. For ages 9-99 I'd say. ;)

The Undersea didn't quite work for me; I liked the idea, but the mechanics felt flawed (for example: How are the interface waves created? Why are the characters' movements so unconstrained? How does the undersea get oxygenated?). It also bothered me that it took 300 pages for Hark to realize that Jelt had been killing people. What I liked best was the commoditization of the gods.

Yeah, the physics make this a fantasy, not SF, eh?

Cheryl wrote: "Yeah, the physics make this a fantasy, not SF, eh?"

It'd be interesting to see if this were a problem for anyone else. I found myself wanting to know why the gods lost their cognitive skills as they gained in size (this seemed like devolution to me). I didn't have a problem with the magical properties of the undersea, but I would like to see that the writer had thought through the implications, and I didn't get that, here.

I wouldn't say it was an actual problem for me, but, yeah, I had to willfully suspend disbelief. and I do prefer SF.

I'm not sure of the world-building of the politics either. I don't like intrigue or politics so it was fine for me, but the treatment of the Leaguers (?) and Continenters etc. seemed awfully simplistic. (But then, this is a kids' book. ;)

I'd also like to talk about the choice of Hark as the protagonist. Some have noted that he's peripheral & passive. Beth, in her review and comments, https://www.goodreads.com/review/show..., wonders if the story might have been better if one of the heroes, Selphin or maybe Quest, were the protagonist.

Honestly, I don't see Hark as peripheral, because he is the center of everything that happens, he's the one who is with everyone else at critical times. And also I do see him as heroic. Otoh, I can't quite disagree with Beth's points. What do you think?

Also, I think it's Hark's story. And not just because he becomes a story-keeper, but because he is the most interesting character, the one who undergoes the most growth.

It's Hark's story because the story isn't about the gods, those are just the trappings, the story is about Hark learning to break away from an abusive relationship. The Jelt/Hark relationship where Hark grows and learns from the friendship to the point where he finally learns that he needs to break away is the heart of the novel. It wouldn't make sense if it were told from another POV, because the heart of the novel would be missing.

We do get a little of Selphin's POV (at least I seem to recall) which could have been expanded on. And we get a lot of Jelt's POV through the dialog. I wonder why she didn't do the book FP.

Finally past the half way mark and I'm now actually wanting to get back to it and thinking about it . I don't think I'd call it traditional YA - too much nuance and philosophical themes. But it IS a traditional coming if age story which all YA nests in. just my take. I appreciate a coming if age story that is not just another generic YA tale. I did have to skip some of the abuse from Jelt - too hard to listen to. And the parts from Selfin were a perfectly timed break from Hark being pushed around. Interested to see where t goes.

Just finished, this one just didn't really work for me, I didn't buy into the worldbuilding, it felt too artificial and maybe better as a metaphor than a real place and there was no character I cared about enough to be hooked.

I like that idea, actually, of metaphor. Makes it more *L*iterary, y'know?

Christopher wrote: "Just finished, this one just didn't really work for me, I didn't buy into the worldbuilding, it felt too artificial and maybe better as a metaphor than a real place and there was no character I car..."

You did better than me, I couldn't finish and gave up at 55% , after I noticed I'm just skimming through the chapters without really investing.

I finished it yesterday.

Like Gabi, I loved the world-building, especially religion being transformed into a merchandise, the loss of purpose of the priests, and the whole sea/undersea concept. I wasn't bothered by the lack of physics/mechanics like other readers may have been.

However some aspects felt a bit unexplored to me. Selphin seemed a more interesting character to follow compared to Hark. I found her more wilful and sharper than Hark and I did wish to see more of her POV (without making her the central character). It takes a long while before the Sanctuary characters take an active role in the story, and even then I felt it was limited.

I liked how the toxicity in Jelt/Hark relationship was progressively built up, so you could get an understanding of the complex and conflicted feelings involved. However for some reason, I was often wondering "Why is Hark still letting this go on?" especially when he builds another life for him at Sanctuary.

Christopher wrote: "there was no character I cared about enough to be hooked

pun intended? :D

I think the relationship between Jelt and Hark is really hard but what I loved about it is that it's...extremely accurate. Abuse cycles are so clear to everyone outside and so confusing for the person being abused. Perhaps it's because I was reading this last year in the middle of a pack of books about "friendships" and family that were abusive but not called out that this one really spoke to me then, but as hard as it was to read, I think it's important to capture that the "ride or die" aspect of so many fantasy friendships are actually pretty one sided and unhealthy. I don't see that explored much, certainly not the psychological side of it (rather than physical violence) and almost never done with this level of honesty. I applaud hard things done well, and almost certainly gave the book points for that.

I really loved this book. I thought it was deeply moving and Hark's relationship with Jelt, though difficult to read, felt very accurate to me. It made even more sense for Hark since he considered Jelt his family and didn't have any other constant presence in his life. It also reminded me a lot of the friendships I had growing up (or even into college) or that I saw happening with other friends. I also loved Selphin as a character and enjoyed reading her POV. I'm not sure why it's being referred to as a kids' book? I didn't have that feeling from it at all.

One thing I really liked about this was how the author wrote about the sea-kissed. As someone who is very familiar with the deaf community, I can say that the representation was RIGHT on point here, and I was beyond thrilled to see that! Just wanted to throw that out :)

Marisa wrote: "One thing I really liked about this was how the author wrote about the sea-kissed. As someone who is very familiar with the deaf community, I can say that the representation was RIGHT on point here..."

I also liked that aspect very much. I don't recall reading fantasy novels with deaf characters before (but I welcome suggestions if others have!). I think the community of sea-kissed, and especially reading through their POV through Selphin, gave a good additional dimension to the story. I am glad to hear that it was an accurate representation as well!

Finished yesterday. I gave this one 4 stars for the world-building and because this is the first fantasy story I recall reading with a nursing home as a significant setting and important deaf characters.

The Hark/Jelt relationship was hard to read, but rang true and was pretty much to be expected in the context of the Myriad. There was a lot of similarity between gods and their worshipers. The people who worshiped the giant predatory fish all seemed to be grifters preying on each other, while the sun worshiper (Kly) was more benevolent, generous, etc.

My favorite scene was when Hark was worried about changing, and Quest says, "Perhaps you need to work out which parts of yourself are essential to your nature." Seems like good advice for readers of all ages.

"Christopher wrote: "there was no character I cared about enough to be hooked

pun intended? :D"

Glad you sea where I was going with that one.

Just now half-way through and not sure if I will enjoy the second half. In this case I seem to identify with Hark to some degree. Jelt constantly has the next scheme to "get rich" and pulls Hark in using his long-time friendship and loyalty and guilt techniques. Then Hark seems to always get the raw end of the deal. I need to know just how long Hark will remain loyal and compare to my real life experiences. Maybe a three star rating at this point. Hope it draws me in further.

So I finished this yesterday and have so far recommended it to three other people.

What worked and what didn't work for me.... I really loved how Hark grew as a person throughout the book. He went from the 'follower' who lies and steals in the beginning of the book to a 'leader' who protects other people and is willing to sacrifice his very life so the people of Myriad wouldn't suffer the return of the gods at the end.

What didn't work for me is the relationship with Jelt. I mean, come on, he is SUCH a monster even before turning into one for real! But, how many of you feel that he really DID die when he drowned in the bathysphere at the beginning. That when Hark connected him to the Lady's Heart he was just a fishy version of The Walking Dead? It seems like any good he may have had a vestige of didn't come back when he was 'saved.'

The world building was amazing!! I would love to read more about Hark and Selphin.

Thank you for suggesting this book, it hadn't come across my radar.

Roberta wrote: "But, how many of you feel that he really DID die when he drowned in the bathysphere at the beginning"

In my opinion, he definitely died and the god heart resuscitated him. In the rest of the novel, he appeared to be the chosen vessel for the god, and I thought it was explained by his death and "rebirth"

I really ended up enjoying the book. When I first started it, I wasn't sure if I was going to like it. This was my first introduction to this author.
I as well appreciated how she incorporated the sea-kissed community. At the end of the book, it mentions that she consulted with the deaf community to guide her writing and portrayal of them.

I agree with Allison's comments about the accurate portrayal of abusive relationships in this book. I work in school mental health, and youth are exposed to abusive relationships quite often, not just from family, but from their peers.

My favorite character in the book was Selphin. I liked her a lot more than I liked Hark.

AMG wrote: "I have read other's comments, and I actually disagree with people who are saying this is too mature for middle grade/YA.

I think that stories are the right way to introduce children to mature themes..."

Hear, hear!

I agree with you, AMG and Cheryl. I think this would be a very good book for adolescents and Teens to read, especially if they can talk about it with a trusted adult. But even if not, the way things resolve for Hark make it an excellent guide, of sorts, to learn what constitutes an abusive friendship and what you can do to extricate yourself from it and grow into your own. Hardinge also showed what healthy friendships could look like in the form of Selphin and Quest. I loved how Quest was often referred to as Hark's friend, even though there were probably 50-60 or more years age difference.

I loved how there was a lot of nuance in most of the characters. You could never be sure what sort of person a character would turn out to be and even then, it could shift.

I finished the book yesterday and just had a chance to read through the bulk of the comments here. I have to say I'm really impressed by this book and will definitely look into her other novels. If they are even more like MG I will encourage my son to read one.

I read that Hardinge also got a challenge from a reader to include a deaf character. I think it was exceptionally well done. She clearly did her research, if she doesn't have any personal experience in that regard.

Rachel wrote: "Jelts treatment of Hark is a very hard thing to listen too. Makes me physically tense"

I agree 1000% percent. It made me tense and very angry.

Diving right into the first question: to me the issues - especially of abusive friendships and unhealthy power dynamics (looking at you Dr. Vyne) - were well handled. I really liked that we got to see Hark‘s back and forth. He‘d have doubts about Jelt and then their shared history would make him disregard them - until he eventually couldn‘t anymore. That felt quite true to life to me.

I also really liked the way he found real, healthy friendships and how it took him a while to realise the difference. (The fact that he realized just before risking his life at the climax of the book was maybe a bit construed, but it didn‘t really pull me out of the story.)

I also thought the book did well where representations of disability were concerned. The Sea-Kissed and the way sign-language and lip reading were worked into the world and society was quite well done. But then at the same time, Hardinge didn‘t go the easy way of saying „Hearing loss is accepted, there‘s no more ableism in this society“ via the relationship between Rigg and Selphin. Rigg‘s insistence on „fixing“ Selphin, despite Selphin being very clear on the fact that she doesn‘t need fixing. Of course, Selphin‘s trauma is somewhat different from a physical disability, but Rigg‘s desire to „fix“ her still comes from a very ableist place. I was glad they reconciled in the end.

2. What did you think of the world?
I really liked the worldbuilding. I would probably read another book set in this world.

I also thought the revelation about the gods was well done. I had guessed fairly early on that Quest had something to do with the cataclysm, so that reveal wasn’t really a shocker, but it was believable that it would have been a shock for Hark.

3. What worked or didn't for you?
There wasn’t really anything that didn’t work for me. But it also wasn’t a “Oh, I absolutely love this” book for me.

4. Overall thoughts?
Definitely a book I enjoyed (the audio narration was quite well done) and I have a few friends I’m gonna recommend it to.

Around 70% through, things are heating up!

"The Jelt-Thing" reminds me of Stephen King: a horrific element where someone you know becomes warped / deformed / possessed but is still in a somewhat recognizable form, making the situation worse.

Dr. Vyne has been good, rational, a source of knowledge and helping Hark... If she doesn't know about the "bad energy" of the god-pieces, will she figure out how to harness or cancel it? Hopefully she doesn't know, because if she does then she might turn out amoral or even evil... She is working with that League now and I don't know or can't remember what they are up to really.

It is so believable that once a healing power was available the word spread and now there are even proto-worshippers staying out on the island.

I like the bits about Hark's work at the Sanctuary changing him, that he and Quest put their cards on the table and will work together now. The smuggler's daughter is still missing -- cool scenes with her NOT wanting to be "healed" with her mother insisting and dragging her, and Hark then realizing his scars were gone, feeling violated -- but I bet she is out there up to something. I like her. (I would like Hark more if he were not so dishonest.)

I feel like I know where things are headed now so if I am surprised yet that will be a nice bonus for me.