Reading List Completists discussion

Discuss the June 2021 Completist Selection - A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man - here

The middle of this book is one big sermon on hellfire and damnation - not too bad to listen to Colin Farrell narrate. But, I could see this being a bit tedious if I was reading a physical/ebook version.

Okay, that's good to know. I have it on my phone now (Colin Farrell version) so I'll check it out. I have another book club book I need to read first (Celeste Ng's Everything I Never Told You) so we'll get to this one eventually. I'm just glad I have it on audio, lol!

I'm started on this and about 1/3 of the way in. I have this on Kindle and Audio but I'm loving Gerry O'Brien's narration so much that I can't bear to leave it. I almost got the Colin Farrell one because I love him, but the reviews of O'Brien's were better. So far, I find him perfect.

I'm in the hellfire and damnation part and it's not bothering me at all so far.

I'm past the fire and brimstone part. It was a bit much but I understand Joyce having it in there since it played a big part in shaping him. I read Walking with Ghosts, Gabriel Byrne's memoir and this reminds me of that.

I'm surprised that some think this is pretentious or too modernist. I feel like this reads like a great memoir. I'm surprised at how similar Byrne's and Joyce's stories are with their Irish Catholic upbringing. Both were recruited to be Priests and both turned out to be artists.

Byrne's memoir had much more about how his family shaped him while this has more philosophical and theological discussions as the basis for what shapes Joyce. I love those types of discussions and don't have to agree with an argument to appreciate it.

I'm sure that Joyce has some tricks that go over my head, but I don't care. I'm enjoying this immensely without thinking about that. This is no Ulysses (which is a good thing).

Sue wrote: "I'm past the fire and brimstone part. It was a bit much but I understand Joyce having it in there since it played a big part in shaping him. I read Walking with Ghosts, Gabriel Byrn..."

Great summary, Sue! You make me want to check out Byrne's memoir!

I enjoyed this much more this time around. Teenage me was too jaded, I guess!

Click for my review:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Byrne's memoir on audio read by him is so good, Matthew.

The timing of when you read a book can make all the difference in the world. I'm glad you got more out of it this time.

I was able to get a copy of the Jim Norton recording, which has great reviews, so I'm going to give that a try. If I don't like it, I'll listen to the Colin Farrell version. I have them both on my phone, so I'll read that as soon as I'm done with Patricia Highsmith's The Price of Salt.

Man, I'm listening to that sermon (Jim Norton really does do a fine job) and talk about firestone and brimstone. No wonder Stephen is shaking in his boots!

Hi everyone! Coming a little late to the party here. I’ve just finished ch. 1, which bursts with vivid moments from young Dedalus (aka Joyce)’s school years. The dialogues are all incredibly lifelike and colourful: the heated discussion around the Christmas dinner, the flogging the Jesuits inflict the boys at Clongowes College, some for “smuggling” (?), others (Dedalus) just for breaking their glasses… Great stuff!

Despite some slightly quaint vocabulary, I’m surprised at how readable this is, as compared to my vague memory of some parts of Ulysses. Also, the weight of Catholicism in Dedalus’s upbringing is quite striking.

One last thing for now: I wouldn’t be surprised if David Foster Wallace had taken a lot of his inspiration for the description of the Tennis Academy in Infinite Jest from Joyce’s first novel. Same thing (in another genre) regarding Rothfuss’ The Name of the Wind.

Leonard wrote: "Hi everyone! Coming a little late to the party here. I’ve just finished ch. 1, which bursts with vivid moments from young Dedalus (aka Joyce)’s school years. The dialogues are all incredibly lifeli..."

Great comments, Leonard. I agree that the dialogues are lifelike and colorful. It was the same for me in Dubliners.

The scenes during the punishment for broken glasses and after were so vivid. It took so much courage to complain. I was afraid for him. I wonder if that whole incident actually happened to Joyce?

Sue wrote: "The scenes during the punishment for broken glasses and after were so vivid. It took so much courage to complain. I was afraid for him. I wonder if that whole incident actually happened to Joyce?"

I've wondered the same thing several times so far, and I suspect it wouldn't be far from the truth. Very clearly, many of these incidents helped shaped who Joyce was.

I agree Eileen, it's certainly fits with him since he had eye troubles his whole life.

We should read some biographical work on Joyce and see to what extent Stephen’s experiences matches the author’s. At any rate, I wouldn’t be surprised if it did: Joyce wore glasses, was educated by the Jesuits, and, at the time, physical punishment was commonplace…

Also, I find it interesting to compare Joyce and Proust re childhood memories: Proust never mentions school (it’s as if he had been on an unending holiday!) and writes at length about his mother and his puppy loves. By contrast, Joyce talks mostly about school, his drinking father, and very little about women.

In fact, ch. 2 is all about how Stephen is miserable almost all the time, despite being intellectually gifted: bullied by the other lads (“—Admit, Admit!”), annoyed with his father, and ends up consoling himself with a prostitute. Again, not sure here to what extent all this is autobiographical, if Joyce is dramatising things to make his narrative spicier, or if he was in a “poor little me” sort of mood… In any case, the whole thing feels a bit disjointed but still very compelling. On to ch. 3 now.

I finished this last week and enjoyed it much more this time around than I did when I was a teenager:

Click for my review:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

One of the most interesting parts of the discussion that my review has triggered is discussion about this being a "Bildungsroman" and other things related to that.

Here are some quotes from Wikipedia - and they could be a bit spoilerish based on definitions, so proceed cautiously!:

"A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man is the first novel of Irish writer James Joyce. A Künstlerroman written in a modernist style"

"A Künstlerroman (German pronunciation: [ˈkʏnstlɐ.ʁoˌmaːn]; plural -ane), meaning "artist's novel" in English, is a narrative about an artist's growth to maturity. It could be classified as a sub-category of Bildungsroman. According to Encyclopaedia Britannica, a Künstlerroman differs from a Bildungsroman upon its ending. Whereas a Künstlerroman concludes with a rejection of the everyday life, the hero of a Bildungsroman fantasizes of becoming an important artist figure, however, settles for being a common citizen by the end of the novel."

"In literary criticism, a Bildungsroman (German pronunciation: [ˈbɪldʊŋs.ʁoˌmaːn], plural Bildungsromane, German pronunciation: [ˈbɪldʊŋs.ʁoˌmaːnə]) is a literary genre that focuses on the psychological and moral growth of the protagonist from youth to adulthood (coming of age), in which character change is important. The term comes from the German words Bildung ("cultivation") and Roman ("novel")."

I agree with your take that Portrait is a Künstlerroman. In fact, that is why I find it comparable to Proust’s novel, which is also a Künstlerroman—granted, the content and proportions are very different.

The sermons in ch. 3 are masterful. They hark back to many religious texts, from Genesis to the Apocalypse, from Augustine to Thomas Aquinas, and from Dante to Milton—quite staggering! To me, the most exciting aspect of this is how Joyce uses irony: the reader could take all that description of physical and mental torture in hell, as well as Stephen’s terror, at face value, of course. But the whole thing, the terror during the sermon and the sense of relief after the confession, is so over the top that it can definitely also be read like a parody (I believe that is the main intention here).

Incidentally, I personally went to a similar Jesuit college and indeed, these priests were incredibly good at scaring boys shitless with that sort of imagery. In hindsight, I admit it was a bit of a mindfuck, and Joyce captures that perfectly!

Finished through Chapter 4 last night. Chapter 3 was a killer for me. I only had to endure 7 years of parochial school (which I loved, but our elderly Monsignor was of the speed-sermon approach and therefore beloved), but after 4 more decades of sitting in pews, that level of guilt and misery seems inhumane to me.

Suspect this is why I put this book down incomplete at this point a couple years back.

Just finished ch. 4. Huge change of vibe from the previous one, especially with the wonderful episode of elation by the seaside, which really sounds like a glimpse of heaven! The figure of the girl is quite fascinating too.

Okay, I just finished and overall, I'm glad I did read it. I felt like Chapter 3 totally captured what it must have been like to be a boy attending a parochial school and always worrying about getting caught doing something wrong. So glad I never went to Catholic school, lol! As I was listening to some of the sermons, I felt like I was listening to Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God. He was pretty masterful capturing not just the energy and essence of those sermons, but what it must have felt like to sit and endure those sermons and always be thinking about getting caught (whether or not you were guilty of something, because as a child you're always feeling guilty about something). I agree with Leonard about chapter 4 is like a 180 degree change from chapter 3. Chapter 5 and 6 were not as captivating for me compared to Chapters 3 and 4.

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

I didn't

I am the dissenting voice on this one. This was an utter slog for me. I was interested in the Irish politics, when I could follow them. I was interested in the depictions of his home life and school experiences, but the theorizing, sermons and pontificating lost me.

I tried listening on audio, but my versions used such strong accents that I couldn’t follow without wanting to curl up and snooze.

Oddly, around the same day I started reading this was the 144th anniversary of mass executions of suspected “Molly McGuire” union-mongers in Maunk Chunk and Pottsville, PA. This led me to some genealogical searching to see if any of my ancestors were local there at that time/involved.

Liane wrote: "I am the dissenting voice on this one. This was an utter slog for me. I was interested in the Irish politics, when I could follow them. I was interested in the depictions of his home life and schoo..."

Sorry it did not work for you, Liane - sounds like my first experience with it from high school.

FWIW, here goes my review: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

See you guys around!