Victorians! discussion

Chapters 29-30
Clara returns to the Hall and is as desperate to retrieve her letter as Willoughby is to attain it. Clara fears that Crossjay will lose Willoughby’s patronage if he is seen to be involved in her escape. (CJ has made up a lie about Clara going to visit the cottage of sick tenant children.) Mrs. Mountstuart provides a distraction with plans for her dinner party. Laetitia Dale recounts the events of the dinner party to Vernon who has chosen not to attend. The missing doctor appears and recounts his observation of a woman & man (Clara & DeCraye) at the train station. Vernon speculates on whether Clara might do well to confess herself to Mrs. Mountstuart, who might have influence with Willoughby.

Chapters 31-32
Willoughby seeks out Laetitia and applies his powers of persuasion. Laetitia becomes convinced that Clara need only ask for her freedom to be given it. Crossjay is to be thrown out of the Hall because he lied to cover Clara. Clara speaks to Willoughby and lets Laetitia know that she was mistaken.

Chapters 33-35
Everyone at the Hall breaks into groups for conversation. Mrs. Montstuart arrives and brings her advice and keen powers of observation... On Laetitia: "It seems to me she is coming three parts out of her shell, and wearing it as a hood for convenience."

Flitch returns Clara’s purse, which was left in his carriage. Willoughby tries his influence with Mrs. Montstuart. (Mrs. MS is delightfully quotable.) Finally, Clara and Mrs. Montstuart converse, and over the course of that conversation Clara convinces the older woman that she truly wishes to break her engagement.

Discussion Questions

1. Do you have any new insights into the characters and their motivations?
2. Do you believe that Mrs. Montstuart will actually help Clara In her pursuit of a release from her engagement? What brings you to this conclusion?
3. In what ways might the support of Mrs. Montstuart make a difference in Clara’s ability to achieve her objective?
4. How might the dissolution of the engagement affect the other characters?

I am really enjoying this book, but my word it is really making me concentrate. Even the dialogue is hard to follow in this section, as they all spar with witty comments, Willoughby and Laetitia have their heart to heart, and Mrs Mountstuart tries to find out what Clara is about.

It appears that Mrs Mountstuart thought that Clara was playing games to try to bring Willoughby to heel. When she hears the truth, she’s a bit put out at first that Lady Busshe had guessed correctly, but I think she will now be inclined to help Clara. However, she may have assumed that it is De Craye that Clara loves, rather than Vernon, so there are more misunderstandings to come.

Mrs Mountstuart is a character that appears often in Victorian literature, the mature woman with social status who can be a protector to a younger protégée. She will be taken more seriously and not so easily dismissed as Clara, and her experience of the ways of society will help her find a way through. Clara has taken Vernon’s advice in talking to Mrs M, so I’m sure it will prove to be a wise step,

Renee wrote: "1. Do you have any new insights into the characters and their motivations?"

I think Laetitia may be getting a clearer picture of Willoughby and it is possible that her blind devotion may be weakening, A lessening of her respect does not seem to lessen the degree of her love for him, as of yet. We haven't gotten a picture inside her head to get her true thoughts.

Also, inspired by last week's discussion, I now see how Clara's father is not only another Egoist, but actually risen to my least liked character. While I sometimes think Willoughby is salvageable, Dr. Middleton's comments in this section cement his most awful status. The egoism expressed to a young woman by her suitor is more forgivable than the same level of egoism expressed to her by her father.

Renee wrote: "2. Do you believe that Mrs. Mountstuart will actually help Clara In her pursuit of a release from her engagement? What brings you to this conclusion?
3. In what ways might the support of Mrs. Mountstuart make a difference in Clara’s ability to achieve her objective?.."

I'm not sure about Mrs. Mountuart's personality yet but Pamela seems to have her type figured out so I'll just second her answer.

Renee wrote: " 4. How might the dissolution of the engagement affect the other characters?."

My dream scenario is that it gives Laetitia a chance to strike Willoughby out. She could be the third person to jilt him after an engagement and, in American baseball terms, it would be three strikes and he is out. Seriously, if Laetitia does love him and thinks he actually can love her, then I wish them well.
In Clara's case, maybe she can wait until she's more like Laetitia's age and then marry Crossjay. A 5 or 6 years younger husband is the right move.

Pamela wrote: "Mrs Mountstuart is a character that appears often in Victorian literature, the mature woman with social status who can be a protector to a younger protégée. She will be taken more seriously and not so easily dismissed as Clara, and her experience of the ways of society will help her find a way through. Clara has taken Vernon’s advice in talking to Mrs M, so I’m sure it will prove to be a wise step"

Good point. Mature women of standing had a certain kind of power. I’d like to think that in this Art imitates Life. Mrs. MS might make all the difference to Clara. Certainly, Willoughby seems to value her opinion as the litmus test for society’s opinion. We will have to wait and see.

Brian wrote: "Also, inspired by last week's discussion, I now see how Clara's father is not only another Egoist, but actually risen to my least liked character. While I sometimes think Willoughby is salvageable, Dr. Middleton's comments in this section cement his most awful status. The egoism expressed to a young woman by her suitor is more forgivable than the same level of egoism expressed to her by her father."

I am completely with you on this. It must break Clara’s heart to be so undervalued in comparison to his convenience. :(

Brian wrote: "In Clara's case, maybe she can wait until she's more like Laetitia's age and then marry Crossjay. A 5 or 6 years younger husband is the right move."

I LOVE this potential twist!

"In Clara's case, maybe she can wait until she's more like Laetitia's age and then marry Crossjay. A 5 or 6 years younger husband is the right move."!"

There is a basis in Meredith's own life for his considering this as a possible outcome. I just read the Goodreads blurb on Meredith and it says that Meredith married "Mary Ellen Nicolls, a widowed daughter of Thomas Love Peacock, in 1849. He was twenty-one years old; she was thirty." (Wikipedia says 21 and 28).
However, then again, Meredith may not like to remind himself of his first marriage as it ended badly, with Mary Ellen having an affair and child with Henry Wallis, the painter of "the Death of Chatterton" that Meredith posed for. She died 3 years later. Renee posted links on the painting in the background thread.

Oh, my gosh! This section really got me riled up! On the one hand, my modern brain gets exasperated with Clara because she doesn't just pick up and leave. On the other, I understand that my modern brain can't really comprehend how constrained the lives of women were in that day. Yes, she could leave--she could go and stay with her friend, but what then? If her father got angry enough to refuse to take her back in, where would she go then? She couldn't make her home permanently with her friend. She has no place to go, no access to funds, no way to support herself.

Dr. Middleton has proven to be the selfish traitor that I expected he would be (and a raging misogynist to boot!). I cringed when he compared trying to find reason in a woman's speech to a cat trying to add a new letter to the alphabet (or something to that effect)! :) He shows absolutely no interest in his daughter's happiness when he states "I do abhor a breach of faith. She will not be guilty of that; I demand a cheerful fulfillment of a pledge." His only regret is that now he has to be bothered to lecture her on her duty. His remark that "but that I cannot credit a child of mine with mania, I should be in trepidation of her wits" reveals that in his mind, she is not an individual--she is merely an extension of himself, a reflection of his teachings and his public persona. She is an object that represents him and can therefore not be allowed to express thoughts or actions that do not reflect his own beliefs. Truly egotistical!!

And Willoughby! Previously, I found his behavior reprehensible, but I didn't suspect him of malice. He was definitely being guided by his own desires, but I could still believe that he sincerely believed (although he was beginning to have some niggling doubts) that Clara was just being a typical "silly woman" and that she would come to her senses. After all, how could she not want HIM?

This section, though, reveals that his thoughts are turning in a darker direction. He hopes that Clara finds herself unable to confide in Mrs. Mountstuart because that would cause that redoubtable lady to despise Clara and believe Willoughby to "be the model gentleman of Christendom." Mrs. Mountstuart would then believe that the bride was the problem and was unworthy of her good fortune, "a picture he had small pride in by comparison with his early vision of a fortune-favored, triumphing squire, whose career is like the sun's, intelligibly lordly to all comprehensions . . . however, it was the choice left to him." He is beginning to let go of his vision of the beautiful, charming Clara as the perfect woman for the perfect man, helping project the image he has (as he perceives himself to be) to the world. Since that is not going to happen, he prefers to present himself as the gallant, honorable gentleman who has been deceived into offering his highly desirable hand to a woman who has proven to be unworthy of the position, but he is too noble to withdraw from a bad bargain. Better that, though, than Lady Busshe "and her owl's hoot of 'Willow Pattern', and her hag's shriek of 'twice jilted.'"

He will force an extremely unwilling bride to the alter, all the while making sure that her name is mud in the county and he is perceived as a hero. He will lock himself and Clara into a lifelong union of misery to avoid being embarrassed by the failure of another engagement. The realization that his perfect life has been reduced to this and that he is now required to spend his time building this new structure, which seems very similar to "a body of insects perpetually erecting and repairing a structure of extraordinary pettiness" results in his "passion for the woman causing it" to "become surcharged with bitterness."

I'm really getting anxious to see how this plays out. Even Willoughby can no longer pretend that this is going to be a happy union. Both are entering it feeling victimized by the other. So are they going to end up going through with it? And if not, what will help free Clara from his clutches? She has already tried to enlist the help of multiple people and tried to physically flee--what will work? Don't tell me if you know--I don't want spoilers! I'm just speculating. :)

Renee wrote: "Brian wrote: "In Clara's case, maybe she can wait until she's more like Laetitia's age and then marry Crossjay. A 5 or 6 years younger husband is the right move."

I LOVE this potential twist!"

I think I would like that to, he's the only person she seems entirely happy with. But my preferred thing is that she just gets far away from this house, and finds a nice similarly minded friend to go climb mountains with.

A side note, with both Vernon and Laetitia mentioning writing as a profession, I expected the kind of meta examination of the craft to appear somewhere, but everyone's thoughts seems to swirl around the centre of the Clara/Willoughby match without much deviation.

That would have been cool. I’m a bit surprised that Meredith was able to resist that temptation. But he has an agenda with this novel so perhaps he felt compelled to be true to it.