Ersatz TLS discussion
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Archaeology, History, Science and Cosmology
A mass grave could of course be a 'plague pit' and does not necessarily mean those people died from warfare?
Could be. There have been three such pits found on the continent, in Belgium and Germany where the bones showed signs of violence. I’d have to look up the names. AliceRoberts suggests that one tribe might raid another when crops failed, or Hunter gatherers might have raided the farmers, or it might have been for land or power as still prevails today.
Wasn't there a discovery in the Cheddar Gorge where the skeletons had evidence of cannibalism? I suppose of you were hungry enough...!!
Yes, I have heard of some evidence, not sure if in Cheddar.‘Wasn’t that the one where they determined that this early man had dark skin?
CCCubbon wrote: "Yes, I have heard of some evidence, not sure if in Cheddar.‘Wasn’t that the one where they determined that this early man had dark skin?"
I think it was.
I read a little more last night and the find of brothers' bones in Trumpington Meadows in Cambridgeshire recently was subjected to DNA analysis. it was deduced that they had brown eyes, brown hair and darkish brown skin as well.There were up to 100,000 people living in the UK during the Neolithic and only few bones have been found. There is a little evidence of bone cremation buy there again we are talking about five thousand years past. Some of the DNA analysis is showing some family similarities from bones in long barrows. Roberts suggests that it is possible that these are the remains of the 'elite', the rulers maybe, the haves and have nots just like today.
There was some further evidence of incest, maybe to keep hold of power?
There again in other barrows the bones were not related.
There is a field at the end of my garden and when the summer weather is very dry the crop marks of eight or nine round barrows can be made out, one placed as I look out over the hedge. Only maize to be seen now of course. These barrows extended in a line running the length of the field and over the road and into the next.
The experts say that they date from the Bronze Age. Think that I have said before that the land around is archaeologically rich as it has never been built on and was an area of drier land on the edge of The Wash which then was far larger, swampy marsh,
Can anyone tell me the burial method of ancient Native Americans or Aborigines?
Long barrowsA little more about these mounds. They have long been thought of as burial mounds but some more recent excavations have shown that this is not always true and that they have a different symbolism.
Surprisingly, remains of a large wooden building has been found deep inside the mound. This building was trapezoid in shape, the huge post holes as large as tree trunks. The width of the building about 8 or 9 metres and having a length of more than 30 metres. It seems that the house/hall was constructed and then burnt, any odd bits remaining were shovelled inside and then a wooden palisade constructed around and all covered with earth. Later still stones were added on top. No human remains. Many years later some had passages and cairns dug into them for burials but this was not their original function.
It has been suggested that these burnt buildings could have been used by the earlier Hunter-gatherers as a kind of meeting place. It could have been that with the coming of the farmers in the Neolithic that these burnt hall constructions marked a more settled existence.
The influx of the farmers took place very slowly. DNA analysis has shown that the farmers originated from the eastern Mediterranean, places like Greece and Cyprus and intermixing with the Hunter- gatherers more marked on the eastern side of Britain but I emphasize that it happened over many generations.
Mod
They have long been thought of as burial mounds but some more recent excavations have shown that this is not always true ..."
That's interesting - I hadn't heard that before.
I was reading around whilst drinking my coffee and chanced upon two reports in Archaeology news both in Morocco. In different places the first report found some evidence of the first clothing at up to 120,000 years ago and another report was about finding some ancient shell beads going back at least 140,000 years.
I only mention this because I am puzzled ny the thought of beads before clothing. Suppose it could have happened that way , I just expected the clothing to come first.
Mod
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2...
The photos will be available online.
I enjoyed the film The Dig about the excavation.
Fascinating. I enjoyed the film, too.u.Yesterday I mentioned the ancient beads and later went on line to look at some images.
Whilst browsing I noticed a shot of som Tibetan turquoise and realised that the old necklace that is mixed up with my bead collection was made of these stones. I always wondered what they were.
Today I dug it out and cleaned it a little. It is threaded on a silvery wire and I believe must date from 1920/30s. It belonged to an old maiden aunt who was a young miss then. Her boyfriend was a sailor but she never married. I think he died.
Too small for me to wear now and am at a loss to know what to do with it . If these stones have value it seems a shame to bundle them in a drawer.
I will post a picture next
Tibetan turquoise necklace (I think!)https://postimg.cc/qzF6vr9C
The golden parts are brighter than in the photo.
Mod
Scary! 'Hell-heron' is rather splendid.
Gpfr wrote: "An article about 2 women who took photographs at Sutton Hoo..."
Aha! I just came here to post that same article. Those photos do look exciting. I've read The Dig, but haven't seen the film yet.
Aha! I just came here to post that same article. Those photos do look exciting. I've read The Dig, but haven't seen the film yet.
CCCubbon wrote: "Tibetan turquoise necklace (I think!)https://postimg.cc/qzF6vr9C
The golden parts are brighter than in the photo."
CCC, the roundish beads are definitely not antique Tibetan turquoise. The two very small ones, where the clasp would usually be, probably are (photo is a bit too small to say for sure).
I happen to know a bit about old beads. Funnily enough my interest started with antique/ancient (I think antique is correct, but ancient is also often used) Tibetan turquoise and (carnelian) pemma-raka beads.
I found them in a wholesaler's shop in the Red Fort in Delhi, accompanying a friend who made quite a lot of money selling self-made necklaces and Indian silver/gemstone jewelry on weekend antique markets.
I got bored while he made his choices and asked the owner if he had anything old. He pulled out some grimy plastic bags, stuff he had inherited from his father, all but forgotten.
My friend wasn't interested, so I spent about 200 GBP of my own money. I thought they were beautiful.
When we came home I started to research what I had bought on a whim. And got sucked into the world of old/ancient beads...
The History of Beads: From 100,000 B.C. to the Present, Revised and Expanded Edition is a fascinating book.
If you want to know about your necklace you could send a photo to
http://beadcollector.net/openforum/
The collective knowledge there is amazing.
The most fascinating beads (to me) are the Roman mosaic glass face beads.
https://www.google.com/search?client=...
Ready for some historic fiction? I recommend -
.You can read about the author here - https://www.oregonencyclopedia.org/ar...
I have found a book on CD of The Clan of the Cave Bear which I will put on hold as soon as I free up a space on my hold list. I've taken to listening to books on CD in the car - as I have given up on the news.
Georg wrote: "CCCubbon wrote: "Tibetan turquoise necklace (I think!)https://postimg.cc/qzF6vr9C
The golden parts are brighter than in the photo."
CCC, the roundish beads are definitely not antique Tibetan tu..."
Thanks for the info. I think like you that a couple of them are turquoise, there is a heart shaped one in the middle. They might make some earrings for my daughter or a bracelet.
Most of the necklaces are interesting from the historical point of view, what was being worn in the 20/30s. I think some of them were given away with certain foodstuffs but I have forgotten which now. I will look at the links tomorrow. Thanks.
This afternoon I have been reading about the Amesbury Archer grave and the goods found within. He lived in the Bronze Age over four thousand years ago.I learned something today about pyrites. I have always thought of this as rock which some in the past have mistaken for gold, fools gold it is called. I have a small piece in a collection of odds and ends. What I didn’t know was that pyrites formed part of a fire making kit. The piece in the Archer’s grave had been well used. It had many grooves along the sides where it had been struck with a flint to make a spark.
Evidently if you strike a piece of pyrites with a sharp piece of flint, or iron or another piece of pyrites, tiny bits of pyrites fly off and instantly react with oxygen to make a spark. If these are directed at something flammable tinder an ember can be created which may be fanned into a fire.
Now I am going to find that pyrites and there is lots of flint around here and try this out. I always thought fire was made by rubbing two sticks together and this method seems more practical.
Copper AgeI have been reading about the Copper Age, that’s the transition period that lasted over a thousand years, the overlap from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age. It started about 3500 BCE and ended around 2300 .
Copper is quite a soft metal and I cannot see it having much use at first for tools or weapons. Once it mixed with some tin of course, most likely by accident, it became much stronger and more useful but metalwork was rare. Several swords, usually broken have been found hereabouts, probably surviving because they were votive objects thrown into streams either for wishes granted or wished for.
The sword blade was typically leaf shaped.
There seems to have been a change in the population during this time, marked by the presence of the pottery known as Beaker in burials. These people seem to have emigrated to Britain from the continent bringing their pots and metal with them. No one can be totally sure for only a limited number of Bronze Age burials are known and have been DNA tested. Once this new technology was known in the country it would have spread to other areas.
Beaker pots are typically bell shaped and decorated by pressing cord into the clay.
The DNA evidence has shown that the immigrants had lighter skin than the original inhabitants who we know had dark skin. There are very few females in these burials and maybe women’s bodies were not buried or disposed of in another way which is unknown.
https://postimg.cc/SnZbgkd7
Mod
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2...
No I had not seen it but have already started exploring, thanks.
I started again. It’s not the easiest site to navigate but found my place eventually.Now I was very interested to see a Bronze Age round barrow, a large one marked in the middle of mt back garden!
I knew there were barrows in a line along the field at the bottom of the garden for I had seen crop marks on Google Earth photos when it was very dry but this map puts this large one right in the garden.
Have to investigate some more. The Iron Age fort is clearly marked. So far I have only looked at the map. If you would like to see it I could send you the location on email.
Mod
Now I was very interested to see a Bronze Age round barrow, a large one marked in the middle of mt back garden!..."
Oh yes!
Barrow shapes are rather interesting in that Neolithic ones are long, Bronze Age are round and Iron Age rectangular.
CCCubbon wrote: "Barrow shapes are rather interesting in that Neolithic ones are long, Bronze Age are round and Iron Age rectangular."Early Cubists?
@CC
Am madly impressed that you wrote to Alice Roberts. And, btw, I've now bought the book.
Am madly impressed that you wrote to Alice Roberts. And, btw, I've now bought the book.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2...Had to smile at this today.
Scientist analysed excrement from a salt mine in Austria to find these ancient workers 2700 years ago were eating blue cheese, fruit, cereals and meat and drinking beer.
Anne wrote: "@CCAm madly impressed that you wrote to Alice Roberts. And, btw, I've now bought the book."
I thought that you might like to see what Alice Roberts replied. The garden reference is because I mentioned the Bronze Age barrow that is recorded to be in my back garden. I had also agreed about family trees and said that it was like picking only the brown ones out of a crate of Smarties.
‘I’m so glad you’ve enjoyed reading Ancestors, especially with your personal connection to the place of the new chariot burial discovery. And how wonderful to have potential archaeology and the trace of those long lost predecessors in your garden.
I have just finished filming a new series of Digging for Britain, with some wonderful new discoveries, and a new book too - a follow-on to Ancestors, including some Anglo Saxon burials from Lincolnshire. I think the book will be out next May.
I love the smarties analogy for genealogical exuberance!
With best wishes - and thanks for getting in touch,’
I suspect that one of the Anglo Saxon graves that is mentioned is the one found in this parish. It is called the Smith’s grave. If my memory doesn’t let me down today it dates from c600AD. He was buried with his tools and samples and lies in Lincoln Museum now where all can be seen. I shall have to consult my book to write more about him.
Mod
As they were about to leave, Erika and her guide
'stumbled upon Professor Sarianidi in person.
"Good afternoon," he bellowed. "Are you archaeologists?"
Murat and I shook our heads.
"That's a shame, there's still plenty of work to be done here!" '
Most interesting. I have started to read about Gonur depe and looked at some of the images. They were far more advanced than people here. I wondered given that they made mosaics and patterns if the had some written language. They must have had a deal of mathematical understanding to construct the village and those drainage pipes.
Anne wrote: "@CCAm madly impressed that you wrote to Alice Roberts. And, btw, I've now bought the book."
I emailed her once and got a lovely reply too
Gpfr wrote: "An interesting passage in Erika Fatland's Sovietistan is about her visit to Gonur Depe, a Bronze Age town in Turkmenistan. It was discovered by a Greek Soviet archaeologist, Viktor Sarianidi, in th..."Sounds like a fascinating visit.
CCCubbon wrote: "https://www.theguardian.com/science/2...Had to smile at this today.
Scientist analysed excrement from a salt mine in Austria to find these ancient workers 2700 years ago were eating blue cheese, fruit, cereals and meat and drinking beer."
I'll tell you what - the article made me laugh when it mentioned that these ancients in the salt mine 'went to the bathroom'.
I would have liked to write to the journalist to ask if this 'early bathroom' had been excavated, as it sounded like a most exciting discovery!
scarletnoir wrote: "CCCubbon wrote: "https://www.theguardian.com/science/2...Had to smile at this today.
Scientist analyse..."
When Allied troops landed at Anzio, during World War II, they discovered a small, still functioning, Roman latrine. General Mark Clark reserved its use for high-ranking officers. The troops called it "Clark's Shi**er,"
CCCubbon wrote: "I was reading around whilst drinking my coffee and chanced upon two reports in Archaeology news both in Morocco. In different places the first report found some evidence of the first clothing at u..."
Bit late to respond, but possibly the beads lasted because of their composition while earlier clothes decomposed?
I started reading Ancestors yesterday, having had it lurking on my digital tbr pile for a little while. THink I'm going to like it. A fortnight ago I went to Devizes for a holiday. I visited Avebury and the stone circles, which were amazing. I know we have read and heard all about why these ancient sites were built but, standing surrounded by massive stones, huge ditches and mounds and knowing what hard lives those people must have lead, I still couldn't help thinking "why." I must be a Philistine!
I love Amesbury and went around feeling the stones and MrC and I ( we were younger) went down into the ditches. When I was much much younger when visiting Stonehenge you could wander around the stones there, before it was protected.Think you are right about the beads, people must have used furs and skins to keep warm in colder weather.
Robert wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "CCCubbon wrote: "https://www.theguardian.com/science/2...Had to smile at this toda..."
I wonder if the officers appreciated the facilities!
Been following along with this interesting thread. Thank you all, especially CC for this. Aberdeen University Archaeology lot are heavily into Pictish site excavation at the moment and their latest dig(s) is/are going to be featured in the next Digging for Britain. At the excavation at Burghead, I went to their Open Day. I particularly liked a tiny carved bone pin they had just been chuffed to find. I was fascinated by the item, and the thought of who had worn it, and how. Such a small item but obviously carefully made, and no doubt much appreciated.
An interesting point that has come up in several places round the Scottish coast, is the the fact that, contrary to expectations, the ordinary people do not appear to have eaten much in the way of seafood though monks did. Now was this because monks owned boats or the abbey was rich enough to pay for fish? Or that there were relatively few boats so not enough to go round the population? Or that not enough skeletons, and therefore testing of bones, have been found to prove the question one way or another?
I do know that in medieval times fishermen locally here were obliged to land their catch in town and pay their taxes, so perhaps, though living by the sea, the ordinary people did not have access to much seafood as you would expect. Hmm.
I looked at some of the reports and images online and wished that I could have accompanied you on the visit.Surprised about the fish or absence of it in the diet. The little analysis that I did on Anglo Saxon diet from the Saxon Wells dig here showed consumption of cereals, foraged plants and some meat.
Would the climate have been suitable for cereal crops there?
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&...Haven't listened yet, but parked this link to come back to and for others who may be interested.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58946633This star map is said to date back 3600 years that would be around 1600 BC . It was found in Germany
I would love to see it
Mod
Thanks, looks good.
Mod
Sounds like a really interesting exhibition. Maybe I'll manage a trip to London.
Gpfr wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Haven't listened yet, but parked this link to come back to..."Thanks, looks good."
She talks about the first couple of burials on YouTube
Ersatz TLS
Books mentioned in this topic
Engineering Mathematics (other topics)Engineering Mathematics (other topics)
The Clan of the Cave Bear, the Valley of Horses, the Mammoth Hunters, the Plains of Passage (other topics)
The History of Beads: From 100,000 B.C. to the Present, Revised and Expanded Edition (other topics)
The Dig (other topics)
Further reading of Alice Roberts’ Ancestors last night put forward the idea that tribes in the neolithic period were far more aggressive and warlike than has been generally supposed. Up until now it has been thought that those first farmers were relatively passive, tending their crops but their is increasing evidence that this was not true with the discovery of mass graves.
She did raise one point that I found thought provoking. Often stone arrow heads are found lying in these ancient graves and presumed to be goods to be taken to the afterlife but it could be that an arrow was fired and caused fatal injury without hitting any bone. After time only loose bones would be left and the arrow head fall to one side. I cannot see a picture of a skeleton any more without remembering that the ribs would simply become a heap of bones, not joined together as usually shown.
It does seem that there were several ways that the dead were treated. The bodies could be left on an open platform for carrion to devour until only the bones were left. Some left bodies to rot in passages in cairns before storing the bones in side rooms, others left the body out for animals to eat. The bones were then usually pushed into a heap to make space for the next lot. Practical!
You may have read that there has just been a remarkably intact Bronze Age coffin found on a golf course in Lincolnshire. In side was a wonderfully preserved stone axe with its wooden haft.
Most Bronze Age axes appear to have the blade only on one side but this one is two sided and decorated consequently thought to be ceremonial with a stone head.
https://postimg.cc/R64wyr9h
As we have posters from many different countries I would love to here about the ancient history in other lands.