Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion

I would say, make the book as good as it can be, but at the same time, you need to be realistic and have an end date. A book cannot be seen to the world unless it is finished and put out there.

T,

From the interview, I love that last piece of advice, "Listen to your editor, but trust yourself."

Regarding the headline, though...

I think that most SPA's problem is that they have a level of pride in their work that isn't warranted.

I thought about my story for a decade before ever starting to write it. It's my story, the one I'm dying to tell. I love everything about it. It's more interesting to me than anything ever written by anyone.

I thought my first draft was fantastic. Sought feedback. Quickly learned that it was anything but fantastic.

Really, really thought the fourth draft was the awesome. It wasn't.

The hardest question for a debut SPA is, "Is your writing good enough?"

Seems like most of the SPAs I'm encountering, though, have never even considered the question, much less went out of their way to get it answered.

Brian wrote: "T,

From the interview, I love that last piece of advice, "Listen to your editor, but trust yourself."

Regarding the headline, though...

I think that most SPA's problem is that they have a level ..."

I am wondering who exactly a SPA is supposed to ask to tell him/her the truth about the question "Is your writing good enough?" I wish that more people were willing to give this advice without expecting payment upfront. I don't want to pay for reviews or opinions, but that seems to be the common practice. I have been told that I have talent, but my book is not flying off of the shelves. I still love to write and practice the craft as much as I can. I suppose every person can be a writer, but not every person can be successful.

JANNA wrote: "Brian wrote: "T,

From the interview, I love that last piece of advice, "Listen to your editor, but trust yourself."

Regarding the headline, though...

I think that most SPA's problem is that they..."

Janna,

That is a huge issue.

My first thought is feedback/critique groups. There are many free ones online. Most of the feedback I received at Scribophile was pretty good.

I also started a group here on Goodreads. If you post, I'll comment: https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...

Of course, the real issue is, "Who's opinion can you trust?"

I'm just a guy with lots of strong opinions. I give plenty of free advice to people, and they may be getting exactly what they pay for.

In the end, I think you should get feedback from as many sources as possible. Actively seek out really critical reviewers. Find the harshest critiquers at at a site and ask them to take a look at your work.

Then, consider each of the comments. Throw away what you don't think is accurate. Use the valid comments to get better.

It's a start at least.

Success in any field requires dedication to the principle of continuous improvement. Perfection may be unattainable, but constantly striving for perfection will always produce better than average results.

Heeding sound advice and accepting constructive criticism from those who had actually achieved a high level of success in any endeavor to which I have aspired have always been key components in accomplishing both my personal and professional goals. Some of my best ideas have come from others.

Jim wrote: "Success in any field requires dedication to the principle of continuous improvement. Perfection may be unattainable, but constantly striving for perfection will always produce better than average r..."

I couldn't have said it better myself. I actually have this thing that sort of ties into this. Sometimes I'll type something out whether it's a comment for social media or a line for a poem and if I question what I wrote even for a moment then I don't go through with posting it or keeping it. I think the same absolutely goes for marketing a book. Chances are if you truly didn't believe in your book you wouldn't have gone so far as to have it published. The best best is before hand to make sure you believe in your work, your product and then adventure out into the marketing world. If you don't believe in your book then its going to be really hard to get someone else to.

i really believe in my works (hence me plugging away madly) but apparently im surrounded by haters and naysayers who for some reason get a kick out of seeing me fail. i grapple with this a lot and since ive cut off contact with a lot of people and decided to diminish company operations my mental breakdowns have lessened. its best to be around people who are supportive and of you dont have that then rely on yourself. sometimes me myself and i are the only ones driving such ambitious dreams.

I think the thing about needing to be 100% proud ignores the fact that some of the best writers are the most self-critical. I've read many successful authors writing about cringing when they think back to their (brilliant) finished books. I don't believe there's really much correlation between how good the book is and how proud of it the author is.

Speaking personally, I am proud of my book - it got me an agent, I'd be silly not to recognise it was an achievement - but I am also not silly enough to think it is 100% perfect, and hence I am not 100% proud!

A couple of thoughts:
The perfect really is the enemy of the good.
The best story in the world is only as good as its readability.
A lot of really badly written novels become bestsellers and major motion pictures. If people enjoy the experience of reading it, you could publish the telephone directory and have a hit.

The equation is actually very simple. Good writing takes passion for the genre. It's the catalyst that transforms an ordinary story into a masterpiece. Passion must flow through the pen.

Joel wrote: "A couple of thoughts:
The perfect really is the enemy of the good.
The best story in the world is only as good as its readability.
A lot of really badly written novels become bestsellers and major ..."

Joel,

An astute observation! Thank you for sharing it. For a truly funny guy who often chooses the more light-hearted than serious obvservation, your serious side is quite impressive.

If the consumer has low expectations, they will settle for exactly what they expect.

If someone wishes to lay claim to the title professional writer, they must be professional, which entails a never-ending learning, continuous improvement, and pride-in-craftmanship process.

I have a perfectionist streak that will not let me finish a story until I find something else to distract me. This usually means I will not feel satisfied or proud until I have spent some time away and come back and read it later. I think for some people there should be a category "good enough" that will let them walk away.

If you're going to publish something, you need to be proud of the finish product. Does that mean it's perfect? Not always. But it should be solid and something you can hold up and say, 'yep. I wrote that.'

I'd say the first step is finding a beta reader/critique partner that will be 100% honest with you. That means, if you send them something that sucks, they aren't afraid to tell you that it's crap and that you need to go back to the drawing board.

There was some good advice given above. Use a professional editor and listen to them. But at the same time, you need to have good instincts as a writer. Be aware of your voice and what you want to project. You need to find an editor that you and your style work well with so that you can build trust. That will also help you produce a better product.

There's perfect, and then there's polished. Anything you deem ready to put out to the public should be polished. Most readers would not recognize perfect even if such a thing actually existed. I often liken novels to opera. There are arias, but there's a whole lot of talking to music that ain't.

I agree with so much of what is said here. First, you have to believe in your book before you can expect someone else to. If you don't love the results, how can you expect readers to?

There's no such thing as a perfect novel. You're imperfect, so how can you write perfectly? I read some good advice when I started out that has helped me over the years:

After you write, revise, revise, revise, and revise again--then go away. Leave your book and don't touch it for a good month or so. Clean the house, reconnect with your family, if they're still talking to you, go outside and play, etc., etc. Then come back to your work and reread it. If you can go through it without making major changes, or better yet, not touch it at all, then it's ready. (This is also helpful in finding those misspelled words that were missed before) But if you find you have to make more changes, then revise, revise, and continue to repeat these steps until you're satisfied.

I live by this and it works.

Groovy wrote: "I agree with so much of what is said here. First, you have to believe in your book before you can expect someone else to. If you don't love the results, how can you expect readers to?

There's no s..."

The first part of what you said is what I also said last night and it could not be more spot on. "If you don't love the results, how can you expect readers to?" It's so true. However there are some out there who you have to think don't believe in their work and don't give it a thorough look over and they just get it published and then go out and shamelessly promote themselves and then wonder why no one takes them seriously.

Justin wrote: "Groovy wrote: "I agree with so much of what is said here. First, you have to believe in your book before you can expect someone else to. If you don't love the results, how can you expect readers to..."

AMEN, Justin, AMEN!!!

I agree with many points made in this thread. Everyone has good and valid comments.

I also agree you have to have pride in your work. If you don't have pride in your story or work of art, who will?

At the same time there has to be a point when you say you have done the best you can and let the work go out into the world. You can revise your work until the day you die, but it will never be "perfect." You have to know when you have done all you can.

In the words of Stephen King's The Dead Zone “We all do what we can, and it has to be good enough, and if it isn't good enough, it has to do.”

T, yes, you're right - 100% makes more sense as a statement of integrity than that you think your book is flawless.

If you don't believe in your work, how can you expect anyone else to?

I sort of envisioned this off thought but it makes for a good example. Imagine you''re at a bookstore doing a book signing and as you begin signing a person asks what makes your book different from another of that genre and your response is, "Well I only believe in this book 50%, the rest I'm really not sure".

Its an odd thought I know but its an easy example to show that you wouldn't say such a thing which means you really have to believe in your book cause if it's less then 100 percent it should be back to examination and writing.

My view is this, and it may not be popular: it doesn't really matter if we're proud of our work or not. It only matters if it's good enough. Everyone is proud of themselves when they've spent years trying to improve/develop a skill and a novel is born as a result. But if it isn't very good, then no amount of pride will make it so. We have to be realistic.

For a living, I teach piano. An adult who had never done music in any form, recently rang me to fix up some lessons. She said over the phone, You'll have to tell me if I have any talent. I could have told her there and then that she hadn't, and that if she had, it was really too late for it to amount to much, but she'd have considered my judgement unfair. If someone has musical ability, they don't need to be told. They'll have been hearing downbeats in music all their lives and will have an instinctive and innate perception of music and will most likely be rhythmic and good at moving to music.

My point is, no amount of pride or effort can give people a talent they don't have. If you have real ability, you can develop your writing no end, and should. I've read the work of many SPAs who don't have a clue how to use punctuation much less have a flair for language or an instinct for plot. It's important to be honest, folks. If negative reviews/reports come back about your work, then it isn't good enough. True, the people criticising may well not be able to write a novel as you have, but that isn't the point. The only thing to be concerned about is whether or not your work stands up to the other books in the genre. You'll be up against professionals and you'll have to hold your own or you can expect to be crushed by honest opinion. Confidence doesn't bring sales. Over-blown, unwarranted confidence can be detrimental to progress. A little humility is in order, I feel. In my experience, talent coupled with meticulous preparation and extremely hard work equals sales. How we feel about our work after we've done all we can, is irrelevant.

Tori wrote: "My view is this, and it may not be popular: it doesn't really matter if we're proud of our work or not. It only matters if it's good enough. Everyone is proud of themselves when they've spent years..."

Your musical analogy is a very good one, and you are right that pride won't sell a poor book.

I can only judge from reviews what others think of my work and a very small percentage of readers post reviews.

All I will say is I couldn't have published a book I didn't feel was the best I was capable of writing. If that is pride, I plead guilty.

Pride in one's craft has suffered greatly since the advent of mass production and automation. Fortunately, writing a novel evolves from one's mind, so by its very nature, it will always remain an individual's craft. Pride in workmanship is essential to producing quality work.

by that yardstick then i must suck major given the ratio of poor reviews to good ones. either im foolhardy or crazy (prideful aint it). -_- but im not writing for them. theyre fickle and drive me absolutely mad. so i write what i like to see in print. its not vain and i think i have talent, but its the only thing keeping me going. i dont have any other better explainations

K.P. wrote: "by that yardstick then i must suck major given the ratio of poor reviews to good ones. either im foolhardy or crazy (prideful aint it). -_- but im not writing for them. theyre fickle and drive me a..."

K.P,

The lack of technical writing knowledge and skills, as demonstrated in your post (message 27), may be a better explanation.

There are books, available in public libraries, and free or low-cost seminars, that may be accessed on-line, that would provide you with the knowledge of grammar, punctuation, spelling, and sentence structure that may remedy the situation. All you have to provide is time, effort, and a willingness to learn.

pfft i have degrees in english and composition and am a skilled technical writer - hell, i edit manuscripts for a living. i wouldnt have been hired if i couldnt. because i dont write perfectly on a broken smartphone and use a lot of slang in conversation means im some kind of dullard huh? i dont need your advice but thanks tho. i will keep that in mind

Jim wrote: "K.P. wrote: "by that yardstick then i must suck major given the ratio of poor reviews to good ones. either im foolhardy or crazy (prideful aint it). -_- but im not writing for them. theyre fickle a..."

Does nobody actually preview a post for errors? I tend to type quickly and don't always hold the caps lock down for sufficient time: hence i, not I, but I find and correct them, or I do my best to do so.

I would have thought it was second-nature to anybody writing with the intention to publish work, and simple courtesy in any other circumstances.

Typing on a telefono can be a pain. Es cierto que si.

Sorry, no Spanish language support on this device.

I believe KP's point is that how one uses language in one situation does not necessarily reflect how one will use language in another. Trying to use a fon screen / keyboard is not the same as using a computer.

One example of venue suitability: when in a firefight, the language used will not be suitable for a dinner involving black tie and tails.

Conversely, dress and language appropriate for a high society dinner party won't fly when dealing with a moron hopped up on meth.

lolz thanks RFG at least you put the point more eloquently than i ever could suffice at the moment (tom collins + all nighter - coffee = cranky). but as you notice folks can be judgmental at times (arent we all?) and im not gon get upset and blow my lid because of some *insert colorful adjectives and nouns* wanted to show off, feel superior or whatever brewing through their heads atm. but then again writers clubs have their share of elitist crabs. and im just the angry angsty jaded hypersensitive drunk in the corner. thar ya go

As a reader, I buy the books that I think have the best possibility of providing me with entertainment.

I believe that most readers have a similar attitude - that they buy the books that appear to provide the best chance of meeting whatever need they're trying to fill (again, entertainment for me).

Therefore, I believe that the better your ability to fulfill the needs of your audience, the more likely you are to sell books. In that way, self publishing is something of a meritocracy.

I think that Jim, in his own way, is just trying to help others have a better chance of succeeding. I think that ascribing negative motives to him (showing off, feeling superior) is not helpful and probably not accurate.

Thanks.

Brian

I'll note those last two posts, especially the second. Not all my characters are well-educated.

Lighten up K.P -)

Tell me what K represents and you can be an angsty, jaded, hypersensitive, drunk in my next book, if a draughty doorway will do instead of a cosy corner?

Brian, your post popped up while I was typing mine. I have a very respectable character called Brian: I wasn't suggesting you might like to be a drunk!

I think K.P. likes to set the trap, and I stumbled into it once. Anyone posting anything on a website for readers and writers needs to keep in mind that the grammar and spelling you use here become part of your resume. People are more likely to become interested in your work if they know you can spell words correctly every time.

Sarah,

I have a decent enough education, but I've also been around the block more times than the average hungry mongrel, for brevity's sake let's just say I've had to function in a variety of venues.

I've met homeless people with PhD's, millionaires who barely graduated high school, and on it goes.

I do believe KP dislikes being underestimated (being very intelligent), though there have been times where being underestimated increases one's odds of survival.

Ken wrote: "I think K.P. likes to set the trap, and I stumbled into it once. Anyone posting anything on a website for readers and writers needs to keep in mind that the grammar and spelling you use here becom..."

Spot on, Ken.

R.F.G. wrote: "Sarah,

I have a decent enough education, but I've also been around the block more times than the average hungry mongrel, for brevity's sake let's just say I've had to function in a variety of venu..."

You make me very sure of one thing: I would enjoy any book you care to write. You can make me see things in very few words, and you can make me laugh.

The second isn't easy at midnight when I know perfectly well I have a chapter to edit.

Goodnight all, Sarah

ech, if that means one has to (at least) put on airs and pretend at perfection (the whole watch what you write as it's considered a 'resume' of sorts to your writing) aint that a bit pretentious? (are you serious??) i write vastly different from how speak. (i can jive with the best) but if that means i have to put on my professional hat in every arena i step out in that's effin exhausting. if i can't be myself in any format and that's looked down on for some reason then wtf. yes i am taking this quite personally. rant on...
what i dont understand is this whole plastic act that writers "must" exude, in some vain attempt to show how "professional" they are than the whack plebeians who barely can construct something coherent in l33t. must i be made of plasticine and mold myself to whatever venue im in, in an effort to fit in with the club? yes i see your attempt at help as super critical for unfounded reasons (other than my postings) then accusing i set traps as a means to somehow shame you. my major beef is not with you (not directly anyway) its just the system as a whole. you have probably been writing for years, a lot longer than i have been alive, but dont get up there with assumptions. i have a general dislike for most groups because it eventually degenerates into elitism and how many degrees one can pull to jockey into some hallowed upper echelons one can never enter because we're not recognised by some major corp (like the big 5 along with all their subsets) and are still considered a dreaming hack doing this on the side. rant off...

tl/dr - writing how one speaks in certain situations doesn't always equal level of education nor skill and shouldn't be considered the complete summary of that person's ability.

K.P. wrote: "ech, if that means one has to (at least) put on airs and pretend at perfection (the whole watch what you write as it's considered a 'resume' of sorts to your writing) aint that a bit pretentious? ..."

I think you're over-thinking the whole damn thing. And you're pretty judgemental yourself. We're just trying to be friendly and offer advice. Isn't that what we all come here for? If your phone is causing you trouble, why don't you just say so without all the temperamental stuff? We all get judged, and sometimes in ways we don't like. But I don't think anybody here means any harm.

K.P. wrote: "ech, if that means one has to (at least) put on airs and pretend at perfection (the whole watch what you write as it's considered a 'resume' of sorts to your writing) aint that a bit pretentious? ..."

In the current book market - there are too many books and thousands are added every week. I think what is happening here is NOT an insult to you, or even an elitist attitude. In the current market, anything an author can do to get someone to check out their books is worth the effort.

This site has 30M members and the majority are readers. Many of them know that a good number of the positive reviews are crap - they been bought or written by friends, sock puppets, or rated in author circles. So they ignore reviews. They read threads and join in discussions and all the while look for that next read.

If you impress a reader with your attitude and use good English they might just check out your author page and your books. It may not sound like much to you. But with so many books out there - it's a great way for these readers to find new books. It's based on their impression of the author.

I read and reviewed (4 stars) one of your books because of interactions I had with you right here on this site. I've done this with other authors as well. It can be a reader's first impression of you. They are your market - that impression counts.

I believe that is what these fine people are trying to tell you. They care.

I believe that anyone who puts a book on Amazon or elsewhere is proud of their book. It may be that the author is proud of getting their book listed and is hopeful of selling a few copies. For other people, topping the best seller list may be their goal. It may be that other authors fall somewhere in between. Whatever the goal of the author no one should belittle their achievements just because it does not fit with what your idea of 'success' should be.

I agree. The people on this, and other forums I'm a member of, are the most helpful, caring people who love to give advice only because they want to help, not be critical. Sometimes it may come across that way.

I may be the only one, but arguing and misunderstandings on a thread are a first for me, because for the whole, most people on these forums are fun and kind and helpful. And like Christine said, readers get a sense of who you are and your writing style by reading these posts; It could interest them in looking up your work, or put them off.

I just hope we're all okay now. And all misunderstandings are forgiven:)

meh not sober enough to come up with anything remotely witty. anyway, yeah market is over saturated - its one thing writing something to stand out and another thing to stand out and not many people get. i do overthink but nothing to get yalls undies twisted.
but seriously tho. jiving just to get noticed is such a put off. i detest it, having to play the role and someone might be like woah check this out. i just find it plain insulting but apparently most people work like this and im just not getting it. this new landscape is bewildering, all this online whatnots and author platform stuff and having to be just on all the time like some big performance. i dont see how yall do it. i honestly dont...

hurr stupid phone deleted my post. recap - i was taught to write in a different tone than how i speak, especially when it comes to anything literary. sorry my casual conversational tone here apparently comes off negative and confrontational and meh. just writing in the other tone is mentally exhausting (a lot of people dont understand me when i speak anyways). but i'll just resume lurking like before and all be well right?

I wouldn't put out my book until it is as good as I can get it. Having said that, I have downloaded a lot of books that are way below professional par that seem to do very well.

Catherine wrote: "I wouldn't put out my book until it is as good as I can get it. Having said that, I have downloaded a lot of books that are way below professional par that seem to do very well."

I get that. The last couple of Indie books I read were less than satisfying. One offered a utopian society to contrast with what we have now, but no word on how this society became or remained utopian, and the other read like a technical manual on how to build a space habitat. Flat characters and very little drama.

Being an Indie writer myself, I find it a little discouraging, and it makes me want to go back and read the classics again.

Sarah wrote: You make me very sure of one thing: I would enjoy any book you care to write. You can make me see things in very few words, and you can make me laugh.

The second isn't easy at midnight when I know perfectly well I have a chapter to edit.

Goodnight all, Sarah "

If you'd like to read one of my books, message me with an email and preferred e-book format, and I'll send one not released yet due to lack of time to finish editing (15 month old demon is keeping me hopping). I prefer to avoid actually making sales at this point, messes with the taxes if I actually have any significant income.

On the 'readers see how you type messages here on GR and it reflects on your work' idea, it's a yes and no situation.

As an artist (wood / edged weapons), I take some pride in trying to craft the best I can with the materials and tools available. If I ever am able to set up a forge, anvil, and swing a hammer to metal, I'll take more pride.

In similar fashion I try to take pride in my writing, given the context it was written under. I have over a dozen novels I need to go back to, cut the last chapter, and start work on again. The reason why, because when I was writing about those worlds incessant interruptions had me realizing it was time to stop before things got too wrong due to not hearing the characters telling their stories.

As a reader when it's possible, I like to get a handle on the people who wrote what I'm reading.

If a writer has led a charmed life, do I really believe she/he can adequately have a feel for what it's like to do without or to be unable to provide for his/her child? No, and that lack of knowing can lend itself to an underlying sense of 'not quite right' in the story.

As a reader I value the reality of writers as people, because being able to relate to their good and not-so-good moments (in a sense) makes them, and by extension their writing, a bit more believable; it's easier to suspend disbelief while I'm visiting the world written about.

As a reader and writer I take pride in certain things and am grateful for others. I'm grateful for my heritage and genetics, since I didn't cause either to be I have no right to be proud of either. I'm proud of things I have accomplished despite or in spite of adversity, as those are things I have done.

The long and short of it is, readers may want different genres, but they also want writers to be real people. It's our faults, our failings, our differences, and all the rest that proves we're not chat-bots hooked up to write prepackaged stories and interact with the unwary.

Perhaps what writers should have more pride in than their writing is when readers see them as someone they (the reader) wouldn't mind knowing in the real world.

K.P. wrote: "...just writing in the other tone is mentally exhausting...i'll just resume lurking like before and all be well right?..."

K.P. please don't underestimate yourself or the contributions you can make to any discussion. Your style is your own and no one is asking you to be someone different or agree with things you don't believe. Your honesty, and how you approach each topic are what's important. Honest opinions are what other commenters look for. Don't start holding back on us now.

Getting back on topic - your writing is unique, just like you, and you should be very proud of your books.