Victorians! discussion

Welcome to week 1 of our discussion of Charles Dickens’ The Old Curiosity Shop. The Old Curiosity Shop was Dickens’ fourth published novel, serialized between April 1840 and February 1841, and one of the most popular of his books during his life time.

Dickens introduces us to our story and characters using the device of an unnamed narrator who makes an appearance and meets our characters but then leaves us from the fourth chapter onwards to carry on following the story on our own. What did we think of this format?

At the centre of our story is little Nell Trent, a fourteen-year-old girl who lives with her grandfather. Our unnamed narrator comes across little Nell when she has lost her way returning home from an errand for her grandfather, one that has sent her out alone in the dark. Her grandfather claims to love her deeply and his greatest concern is to leave her with an inheritance. Yet he sends her on errands alone in the dark, and is content to leave her alone at night while he is away engaged in some secret dealings. To the eyes of everyone outside, Nell’s Grandfather who runs a shop selling old and curious things, is wealthy, yet we soon find that this isn’t the case.

Soon we also meet Nell’s older brother Fred Trent who is also concerned with money—money which he believes his grandfather ought to give him but is making over to Nell instead (both his and her potions that is). He visits his grandfather’s shop with his friend Dick Swiveller, who is as hard up for money as Fred himself seems to be, and attempts to accuse his grandfather of having Nell there only to work for him. But his claims of affection too seem false for we soon learn that all he is interested in is the money alone, and he is scheming to have Nell marry Dick when she comes of age, and thereby get his hands on the money.

Onto this scene which we are seeing through our narrator’s eyes, arrives a grotesque looking man, a ‘dwarf’ who is not only somewhat repulsive in appearance but who we soon learn is also rather sadistic and of course malicious. Daniel Quilp is a money lender, landlord, and also engaged in some dubious dealings from the looks of it and has also some secret dealings with Nell’s grandfather. We soon learn that all of Nell’s grandfather’s property is in his control. At Tower House, the Quilps’ home, we witness Quilp’s sadism as he ‘punishes’ poor Mrs Quilp for treating her ‘friends’ to a sumptuous tea and more so perhaps for their ‘advice’ on how husbands must be dealt with. He also uses Mrs Quilp to worm his way into Nell’s grandfather’s secrets. But what is most chilling in Quilp’s plans and plottings is his designs as to poor little Nell.

Nell herself is the perfect angel, a fairy like child, beautiful, unsuspecting (believed to be modelled on Dickens’ little sister-in-law) but not oblivious to the goings on around her. She loves her grandfather and wishes most of all for things to be as they were when her grandfather was happy and smiled, and she read to him. She is also the only character (other than Kit perhaps) who is not concerned with money and is happy to live in poverty so long as her grandfather is with her, but her grandfather does not seem to understand this. By attributing his actions to his concern for Nell’s well-being, he seems simply to be making excuses for his gambling, in which not only has he never won anything, but has lost whatever he had and plunged them both into debt to the odious Quilp.

Nell’s only friend, other than Mrs Quilp who likes her but is compelled to betray her, is Kit Nubbles, the young boy who works at the shop. He looks out for her (is willing to pick a fight for her), and is perhaps the only one who brings a smile to her face.

Meanwhile Dick Swiveller who is also nearly always in debt is happy to fall in with Fred Trent’s nefarious schemes and marry Nell. But first he must rid himself of his current love interest Miss Sophy Wackles, who also seems to be using Dick to her own ends—simply causing another admirer, Mr Clegg who seems to have the better offer to become jealous and indeed propose.

So there we have our opening chapters where the themes which stand out are money and family relationships. Most of our characters, be it Nell’s grandfather, Dick Swiveller, Fred Trent, or Quilp are almost wholly absorbed in trying to make money—Nell’s grandfather through the gaming table, Dick and Fred through dubious marriage schemes, and Quilp through his many ‘businesses’.

Grandfather, Fred and Nell are family yet the relationship between Fred and grandfather is strained because of money, and indeed Grandfather and Nell’s relationship is governed by that as well, though in the latter case, grandfather claims to be doing it all for her.

Of relationships, there is also that between Quilp and his wife, where it is his dominance and sadism that stand out. Mrs Quilp seems to have married him by choice and claims he has charms, but sadly we are yet to see any. Charms or not, he does have power and menace for even Mrs Jiniwin, his mother-in-law, otherwise seemingly assertive cowers before him. The scariest thought is the designs he has regarding Nell—he is sure his present wife won’t survive beyond 4 or 5 years—and it isn’t that he needs do anything to murder her for his treatment of her may likely have the same effect; and he has Nell’s grandfather in his power.

Fred and Nell’s relationship and indeed Dick and Sophy’s seem also characterized by scheming and manipulation rather than any true feeling. So it is perhaps only in Nell and Kit that we see any semblance of true feeling (perhaps also Mrs Quilp towards Nell, but she can hardly act on it).

What did you think of our characters and this week’s developments?
 

I felt the darkness for Nell in these opening chapters. The darkness of the Victorian streets followed by the lurid scheming of Quilp and finally the revelation of her grandfather’s gambling addiction- a darkness already seeping into Nell’s whole existence.

The only slight light of amusement came from Dick Swiveller and his ‘amorous’ adventures. Sophie’s party, including the stand off between Dick and the market gardener, gave me moments of merriment amidst the troubling trials of poor Nell.

Towards the end of these opening chapters it seemed that Fred was justifying his grandfather’s distrust of him in the way he was trying to sell off Nell to his friend. There seems to be no shortage of malevolence and insincerity both inside and outside the Trent family.

Quilp is truly horrific, not too far short of an egocentric maniac, using fear as his weapon of control. Mrs. Quilp’s friends and relations might well support her but they all know they are powerless to do anything about her situation. Quilp has spent his life exploiting the weaknesses of others and he seems to have both Nell and her grandfather firmly in his grip.

Trev wrote: "I felt the darkness for Nell in these opening chapters. The darkness of the Victorian streets followed by the lurid scheming of Quilp and finally the revelation of her grandfather’s gambling addict..."

As did I Trev; and also some admiration for she is able to keep her spirits up much of the time despite all that is going on around her. She may not know the full extent of it, but she knows there is trouble around. One feels glad that Kit at least is around who genuinely cares and can cheer her up.

Trev wrote: "The only slight light of amusement came from Dick Swiveller and his ‘amorous’ adventures. Sophie’s party, including the stand off between Dick and the market gardener, gave me moments of merriment amidst the troubling trials of poor Nell...."

Sophy's party was good fun; and I also loved the description of the school and what each sister taught.

I also enjoyed Swiveller's elaborate plans to dodge creditors.

Trev wrote: "Quilp is truly horrific, not too far short of an egocentric maniac, using fear as his weapon of control. ..."

I agree and his treatment (torture rather) of poor Mrs Quilp was really sadistic. One of Dickens's scariest villains, for me.

Quilp was terrifying to read! I felt myself making faces and gasping every scene with his wife. Swiveller's street closing plans brought some much needed levity.

Some questions have stuck in my mind:
- Is the current Mrs. Quilp the first Mrs. Quilp? If not, how many have there been before her?
- Will the narrator ever return? He said he won't, but he may change his mind :)
- There's been no mention of Fred and Nell's father or grandmother, I wonder what happened to them? Are they still alive?

I'm very excited for next week's developments!

My library copy (the Everyman's Library edition) has the original Cattermole and Phiz illustrations - they are transporting !

Dickens' stories, while often containing brutish people, are full of tenderness: "I love these little people, and it is not a slight thing when they, who are so fresh from God, love us."

Dickens sets up an incongruity between Nell's beauty, kindness and grace, and the squalor and grotesqueness of her immediate surroundings, human and inanimate.

So far, one of the most memorable scenes that Dickens drew for me was that of Quilp scattering the ladies tea party, settling into his cigars and rum, in complete disdain for his poor wife quaking behind him, ruminating pleasantly on his evil schemes as the dark overtakes the room, and sitting there contentedly fully awake all night, only moving to light a new cigar or chuckle to himself. Marvelous !

Dickens' glee in describing the evil actions of his ogres never ceases to amuse me: "There were, indeed, four sides to the counting-house, but he avoided that one where the window was, deeming it probable that Quilp would be looking out of it. This was prudent, for in point of fact the dwarf, knowing his disposition, was lying in wait at a little distance from the sash armed with a large piece of wood, which, being rough and jagged and studded in many parts with broken nails, might possibly have hurt him." !!!

My copy too has the original illustrations (Wordsworth Classics). I really love them.
It also has an introduction with big spoilers :( When will I learn not to read introductions before the end of the book? :D

Sarah wrote: "Quilp was terrifying to read! I felt myself making faces and gasping every scene with his wife. Swiveller's street closing plans brought some much needed levity.

Some questions have stuck in my mi..."

I agree Sarah; he certainly isn't a person I'd ever want to be anywhere around.

Re Mrs Qulip, I don't think there were any before Betsy because he specifically asks Nell whether she'd like to be the second Mrs Quilp?

The narrator, well, we will have to see if he returns to the seen though he seems to have indicated he's leaving us to it. I did wish he'd stay on for at least he seemed to genuinely care for poor Nell.

Nell's mother we know died early; her grandfather mentions this in chapter 3. But so far as Nell and Fred's father is concerned, I don't remember coming across any mention so far.

Happy to hear that you're enjoying the book.

Daniela wrote: "My copy too has the original illustrations (Wordsworth Classics). I really love them.
It also has an introduction with big spoilers :( When will I learn not to read introductions before the end of..."

I have the Wordworth edition too; in case anyone's missing the illustrations in their copies, both I and Trev have shared links where you can see them in the Reading Schedule and Resources post: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Never mind Daniella, I used to do the same thing for a long time; the Wordsworth eds I think recommend reading the intros after the book, but I always feel they should convert these segments into Afterwords rather than intros.

Brian wrote: "Dickens sets up an incongruity between Nell's beauty, kindness and grace, and the squalor and grotesqueness of her immediate surroundings, human and inanimate."

I agree Brian; and the contrast stands out much more in Nell's case as against may be characters in his other books where there are some a least who one might be sympathetic towards. But poor Nell is surrounded by either people who don't seem capable of giving her the care she needs (grandfather)--in fact quite the opposite, or those who are plotting against her in some way or other.

Brian wrote: "So far, one of the most memorable scenes that Dickens drew for me was that of Quilp scattering the ladies tea party, settling into his cigars and rum, in complete disdain for his poor wife quaking behind him..."

That scene was indeed very well done; I think perhaps with Dickens, his villains and even secondary characters come across much better than say his 'heroines' since they tend to be a little more idealised than real (not completely in every case but bending towards).

Sarah wrote: "Quilp was terrifying to read! I felt myself making faces and gasping every scene with his wife. Swiveller's street closing plans brought some much needed levity.

Some questions have stuck in my mi..."


I too wondered about the point of the narrator, especially after he left us after just a few chapters. Does Dickens’ employ this technique in any other of his novels? There are other novels with multiple ‘narrators’ such as ‘The Moonstone’ and ‘Wuthering Heights’ and ‘Tenant of Wildfell Hall’ has a large section which is taken from a diary. I can’t think of another where the narrator abruptly leaves us and never returns. His sympathetic concern for Nell and the situation with her grandfather ought to make him compelled to come back to see how she is getting on some time in the future.

Quilp has already become for me the worst Dickens villain I have encountered so far. My other candidates would be Bill Sykes and possibly Uriah Heep but Quilp definitely has the potential to outdo both of them when it comes to evil actions. I have been trying to guess Quilp’s age and also Mrs Quilp. Both are younger than Nell’s grandfather but Quilp must be decades older than Nell.

Trev wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Quilp was terrifying to read! I felt myself making faces and gasping every scene with his wife. Swiveller's street closing plans brought some much needed levity.

Some questions have ..."

I don't recall this device from other Dickens books though it has been a while since I read most. Since this was a serial, perhaps Dickens started with the idea of having the narrator as a character but changed his mind along the way? That was the only explanation that came to mind.

Re Quilp, he's definitely up there among the worst Dickens' villains (or should that be the 'best'?); I also have in my list Bradley Headstone who gave me the creeps as also the sinister Madame Defarge.

Quilp (from the 'smoking humour' illustration at least) seems much older than his wife but one can't really tell.

Lady Clementina wrote: "Trev wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Quilp was terrifying to read! I felt myself making faces and gasping every scene with his wife. Swiveller's street closing plans brought some much needed levity.

Some qu..."




Looking at this illustration, Quilp looks about forty. If Mrs. Quilp is the woman sitting second from the right around the table, she only looks in her twenties. Quilp’s chilling remark to Nell about Mrs. Quilp not being around in four or five years takes on a murderous tone when you see how young she might be.

Trev wrote: "Lady Clementina wrote: "Trev wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Quilp was terrifying to read! I felt myself making faces and gasping every scene with his wife. Swiveller's street closing plans brought some much..."

That's the impression roughly I formed from the other illustration as well; regarding the comment on her not being around--I found myself wondering whether he meant to actually murder her or whether he realises that the way he treats her will wear her out soon?

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I think it's the latter. He said something along the lines of him not having to do anything for her to not be around. It adds another layer of terror to think about how awful he must be to have that effect in just 5 or 6 years

I felt terrible for little Nell. Everyone is planning to use her for their purposes. However, what surprised me the most was the fact that even her brother is planning to give her to his friend to have an inheritance that doesn’t exist in the first place. Her grandfather is also delusional thinking he has to save money for little Nell whereas the only thing she needs is her grandfather to be okay and happy.

Quilp was one of worst villains I’ve ever read. I felt really bad for poor Mrs.Quilp when her husband didn’t let her sleep and managed to scare her with compliments.

I also would love to learn more about Nell’s father and what happened to him.

Sarah wrote: "I think it's the latter. He said something along the lines of him not having to do anything for her to not be around. It adds another layer of terror to think about how awful he must be to have tha..."

One can already start to see it in the smoking scene.

Beril wrote: "I felt terrible for little Nell. Everyone is planning to use her for their purposes. However, what surprised me the most was the fact that even her brother is planning to give her to his friend to ..."

I agree Beril, poor Nell, she really has no one to really look out for her and a such a young age. In some ways, her grandfather is the worst since he pretends to care for her (perhaps does at some level), yet seems to subject her to so much.

I agree on Quilp as well; certainly one of the worst villains there are out there--even among Dickens' villains.

Dickens often writes with the implication that there is wisdom in innocence. The wisest characters are often the purest, though I would argue that so far Mrs. Quilp seems to be an exception (pure maybe, but not so wise - is that an unfair assumption on my part?). Many of the characters in this story, as Lady Clementia wrote, are preoccupied with money and/or power. Even grandfather, who seems selfless and kind, one could argue is completely dead to Nell's values, hopes, and dreams. She wants a family, not money. Such a sad story and frustrating to see her wishes go unmet by someone who falsely thinks they know best. I have a feeling grandpa has some lessons to learn in this story!

I have read some of this book before but didn't finish it for some reason. I'm guessing the narrator returns towards the end to sum up, but I'm not sure.

Quilp....what to say? So far he seems pure evil. I'm intrigued by his ability to be terrifying without actually uttering threats or using violence (in most cases). It's the suggestion of what he might be capable of, rather than any actual brutality, that makes him so intimidating. He strikes me as psychopathic.

Mandy wrote: "Dickens often writes with the implication that there is wisdom in innocence. The wisest characters are often the purest, though I would argue that so far Mrs. Quilp seems to be an exception (pure m..."
I think Mrs. Quilp's decision to marry Quilp is a bit of a mystery. She is said to have a 'strange infatuation' with Quilp before marrying him and she seems to really believe that if/when she dies, Quilp will have no problem finding another beautiful wife. And what was it that convinced Mrs Jiniwin to pressure her daughter to marry Quilp. His money or position? He's an interesting villain!

I am not sure how much role Mrs Jiniwin had in the decision. Betsy Quilp's infatuation was strange indeed; the fear he manages to create may have led her to agree more readily perhaps unless his darker side emerged after the wedding which I find a bit hard to accept.