Classics and the Western Canon discussion

The war begins in earnest when Turnus and his allies find out that Aeneas has traveled to see Evander, leaving the Trojans' fort secure but without a leader. Before he leaves, Aeneas tells his men that if something happened while he was away, "They must not take the field and risk a battle, but stay on bastions and defensive mounds. Though shame and anger counseled them to fight, They shut the gates, as ordered..." By the end of Book Nine, we see how well the Trojans follow this advice.

Turnus is furious at the Trojans and believes that he too has a destiny: " My fate is slashing this vile race away," he says (9.136) "My wife is stolen. Not only the sons of Atreus suffered; not just Mycenae took up righteous arms..."

In a reprise of the Doloneia (Book 10 of the Iliad), Nisus and Euryalus go on a dangerous night raid. Theirs is one of the few exchanges in the Aeneid that forms an actual conversation that extends beyond a speech and a response. We know these two from Book 5, where they were participants in the foot race. After Nisus slips in some sacrificial blood, he intentionally trips the lead runner so that Euryalus can win the race. What do you make of their conversation in Book Nine, and how does it reflect upon what happens to them here?

I am struck by one line in particular that Nisus speaks: "Is it gods that make me want this, or do we make our deadly urges gods?"

The last section focuses on the Latins' attack on the Trojan fort. In the course of the attack, Ascanius/Iulus has his first kill in combat. Apollo approves:

Bless your first brave act: that's the way to heaven.
Godborn, you'll father gods. Troy cannot hold you.
All destined wars will one day cease, in justice,
Under Assaracus' posterity.

Is this praise paradoxical?

Book 9 begins with Juno sending Iris, the rainbow goddess, to Turnus to tell him that the Trojan fort is vulnerable. After his attack, the tide turns against Turnus, and he barely escapes (with some help from Jupiter and Iris, again.) The Aeneid begins with a question about Juno's unconquerable anger, and Book 9 begins with Aeneas ordering his men to maintain a defensive posture and curb their shame and anger if they are attacked. Does Book 9 tell us anything about discipline?

Thomas wrote: "I am struck by one line in particular that Nisus speaks: "Is it gods that make me want this, or do we make our deadly urges gods?"..."

This reminds me of something Joan Didion says in her essay, "On Morality" (1965).

Of course we would all like to "believe" in something, like to assuage our private guilts in public causes, like to lose our tiresome selves; like, perhaps, to transform the white flag of defeat at home into the brave white banner of battle away from home. And of course it is all right to do that; that is how, immemorially, things have gotten done. But I think it is all right only so long as we do not delude ourselves about what we are doing and why. . . . It is all right only so long as we recognize the end may or may not be expedient, may or may not be a good idea but in any case has nothing to do with "morality." Because when we start deceiving ourselves into thinking not that we want something or need something, not that it is a pragmatic necessity for us to have it, but that it is a moral imperative that we have it, then is when we join the fashionable madmen, and then is when the thin whine of hysteria is heard in the land, and then is when we are in bad trouble. And I suspect we are already there."

Thomas wrote: "The Aeneid begins with a question about Juno's unconquerable anger, and Book 9 begins with Aeneas ordering his men to maintain a defensive posture and curb their shame and anger if they are attacked. Does Book 9 tell us anything about discipline?"

As I read this chapter and then your question, Thomas, I reflected that this seems to be one of the KEY issues throughout the whole text. Balancing one's emotions (both for humans as well as the gods) seems to be a challenge that continues to rise throughout the text as a whole. Not only was this a challenge for the ancients, but it's also a challenge for us today.

Tamara wrote: "Thomas wrote: "I am struck by one line in particular that Nisus speaks: "Is it gods that make me want this, or do we make our deadly urges gods?"..."

This reminds me of something Joan Didion says ..."

Thanks for referencing the Didion piece. It's short and I took a look, and it's quite great. Yes, I agree, and definitely see some of the connections in those questions.

You're welcome.

Thanks for the Didion quotation.
Also, does not Nisus's question smack of Stoicism?

A couple other observations about the Nisus and Euryalus episode:

Light plays an interesting role. This is a nighttime raid. Nisus sees an opportunity to get through the Rutulian lines while they are drunk and asleep, but Euryalus insists on going with him: "I have contempt for daylight, and I count the honor that you aim at worth my life." They kill a number of Rutulians but Nisus senses that Euryalus' blood thirst is getting out of control: "Light is coming and could catch us." i.e., dawn is about to break. Euryalus can't help himself and takes some Rutulian plunder, including the helmet of Messapus. Light glancing from the helmet betrays his position to Volcens, whose men eventually hunt him down.

While they are running from the enemy (another foot race), Euryalus is separated from Nisus because he is weighed down with plunder. (Again, a discipline problem, due in part to Euryalus' youth I think.) This is similar to what happens to Aeneas and Creusa when they are fleeing Troy -- Nisus doesn't notice that Euryalus has fallen behind and goes back for him. This ending is even more tragic though.

The simile that Virgil employs for the brutal killing of Euryalus is strangely beautiful:

Dying, he thrashed. His lovely limbs and shoulders
Poured streams of blood; his neck sank limply down:
So, cut off by a plow, a purple flower
Faints away into death; so poppies bend
Their weary necks when rain weighs down their heads.

Rome had nothing like Greek tragedy, but at least they had Virgil.

The last thing that strikes me about this episode is that Nisus and Euryalus speak about their mothers and fathers at least 7 or 8 times. Euryalus is especially concerned about his mother. Iulus promises Euryalus that if Euryalus is killed, he will consider Euryalus' mother to be his own, "She'll be my mother, lacking only the name Creusa," and he swears it by "this life my father swore on." And the episode ends with the suffering of Euryalus' mother when she learns of his death.

A reminder perhaps that when men go to war, their families go with them and endure their suffering alongside them.

We are learning so much about war now, on TV for most, but not all. Virgil provides a commentary that shows how ancient it has been. His poetry is moving because we have the analog, the horrible objective correlative.
Again I want to thank Donnaly for sourcing the Ukrainian play based on the Aeneid. It is downloadable as a pdf.

I have some more about Virgil and Homer from reading commentary, which modifies the Pedagogic Imperative I found in Virgil. There is a classical scholar who elaborates on the paradigmatic in both. One example is Hector's last charge at Achilles in the Iliad, the model of the glorious death. I'll write after digesting.

Just finished book 9 this morning.

I like how you point out the discipline problems Thomas. The whole incident where Pandarus and Bitias open the gate to engage the enemy seems like a self inflicted wound with an astonishingly high death toll among the Trojans. Maybe I misunderstood the reason for it? But it seemed to me they just wanted to engage the enemy and win glory, which is exactly what Aeneas told them not to do.

I also noticed that gorgeous stanza describing Euryalus' death. It's interesting the flower imagery; I've seen things like this in other Greek/Roman works, particularly when referring to a dearly loved younger man, but it feels refreshingly uncommon to my modern eye to see such imagery to describe a male.

Another thing that struck me was how gory and graphic the combat was toward the end of book 9. The beheadings, the splitting of a skull and brains spilling out, . . . . It was quite vivid!

And thanks for the Didion quote Tamara! I partially agree but also partially disagree with her. I don't think all altruism is selfishly motivated or to feed internal needs/neuroses . . . though it certainly sometimes is. And certainly, sometimes we fool ourselves and try to bury our own personal guilts or troubles by pouring our energy into things further away that we have little control over. It's basically the entire business model of 24 hour TV news to pull people into that ceaseless, fruitless sinkhole!!

But sometimes there are things worth care and concern that are farther afield and that we care about not because of personal neuroses but because of a true yearning for fairness and decency. Those moral feelings can be real and not projections or mirages. But I do agree with Didion 100% that we have to have enough self knowledge and honesty to know why we do what we do and to know why we want what we want. Because deep down, it is often something different than what we think on the surface. And that difference can often result in a great deal of pain, for ourselves and for others too.