Memoirs of a Geisha Readalong discussion

Hi Everyone!

Thanks for joining today! This tread is to discuss Memoirs of a Geisha as we progress through the book. The purpose for this discussion board is to keep pace with the schedule posted.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

I know there was a film version. Without spoilers, does it match up with the book?

Thank you, Lisa. For managing this book reading and this site. It is work and you are doing it for us. I thank you. peace, janz

just read the first chapter and loved it! I have a feeling this is going to be a better book than I originally thought.

I love the writing style. It’s like a form of story telling.

Hi Everyone! Welcome to Day 1!

What do you think of the description of the tipsy house? What do you think it would be like growing up in the tipsy house? How would you feel if someone beat you with a stick, then washed their boat out with lye and sake, and then called a priest to bless the boat just because you played in the boat?

At the beginning of the chapter, Sayuri lets slip that she is from the poor town of Yoroido. The man responded with disbelief. She uses a "Noh smile" because it resembles a mask whose features are frozen. This reminded me of modern day Botox.

"You, growing up in a dump like Yoroido. That's like making tea in a bucket!" replies the man. What emotions would Sayuri feel hearing that?

Chiyo/Sayuri begins her memoir as the best and worst afternoon of her entire life. Chiyo seems to be setting herself apart from others from the beginning, which is perhaps her water element. She is fluid, and will find a path for herself. She is unique also in that she doesn’t have the duality of her parents’ personalities. She is distinctive, and her gray eyes are part of that. Also, no one else lives in a tipsy house.

Based on the stick beating for playing as well as no girl’s blood mixed with fish guts on the floor, I’m interested to see where Chiyo/Sayuri leads us with gender roles, as well as superstitions.

I’m also unsure of how the relationship between Jakob and Sayuri began, how it progressed and where it ended.

I loved the description of the tipsy house. kind of made me think of some of the house I see when I drive through some areas of Philly. lol

Lisa of Troy wrote: "Hi Everyone! Welcome to Day 1!

What do you think of the description of the tipsy house? What do you think it would be like growing up in the tipsy house? How would you feel if someone beat you wit..."

Lisa, thanks for doing this. I'm looking forward to it, and I really hope that I'll stick with it. If I don't, just know it is solely because of my scattered brain.

I loved the description of the Tipsy house, and how that name conjures up images of someone drunk and unable to properly balance and keep their footing, or when something is unstable and teetering on the edge, about to tip. This seemed evocative of her lived experience up until then.

From the onset we understand that women and girls don't hold the same value in Japan, not unlike most other places in the world during these times. The shame felt from being unclean enough to warrant that excessive scrubbing ritual in the boat (or her sister scrubbing the already clean pot) is the same shame felt when someone reminds you that you come from a poor and pitiful place in your past.
As someone who believes greatly in the importance of knowing ones shadow, I hope that when opportunities like this arise, one can reflect upon the need to accept this part of ourselves with love and honour, appreciating that it has helped form us into the individual we are.

Some of my favourite quotes from the chapter were:

'Was life nothing more than a storm that constantly washed away what had been there only a moment before, and left behind something barren and unrecognizable?'

And the other was when Chiyo/Sayuri offered an explanation of Mr. Tanaka being someone who saw the world as it really was.

'To me, he seemed to see the sap bleeding from the trunks of the pine trees, and the circle of brightness in the sky where the sun was smothered by clouds. He lived in the world that was visible, even if it didn't always please him to be there.'

This really resonated with me. ❤

I just read chapter one! So much different from the movie!

Lisa of Troy wrote: "Hi Everyone! Welcome to Day 1!

What do you think of the description of the tipsy house? What do you think it would be like growing up in the tipsy house? How would you feel if someone beat you wit..."

I read chapter 1. By tipsy, I visualised a house askew to one side, decrepit and about to crumble any moment. I would have always felt cold growing up in such a house close to the sea, with gusts of wind blowing hard all the time. If someone beat me for playing in a boat and cleansed and sanctified it with the help of a priest I would have felt very angry and called them superstitious fools.

Googled the Noh mask and it looks scary. Lol

BTW this is my first book on Japan and by the looks of it even Japanese society wasn't immune to misogyny in the past. Don't know about the present.

I'm really enjoy the writing style so far. do y'all think chiyo sister is really that dumb or is sister rivalry involved. my wife sister is alright but my wife makes it a point to knock her down always. so is that what chiyo is doing here

IDK, maybe ...

Have you read The Good Earth? There was a character that was an infant during a period of famine and she was 'slow' as an adult.

That is what this sister reminds me of ..

Hi all! I’m Sofia from the U.K and this has been sitting on my TBR and bookshelf IRL for quite some time. I liked the film version. Looking forward to delving into this and the discussions.
Also, thank you to Lisa for the invite! ☻

Welcome to Day 2!

In Chapter 2, Chiyo and her sister, Satsu, make a trip to Mr. Tanaka's house. The girls undergo a very invasive exam by a Mrs. Fidget.

Why do we never learn the name of Mrs. Fidget? Does Mrs. Fidget believe that she is above introducing herself to the girls?

Mrs. Fidget states, "Her older sister looks like a peasant beside her!"

Why does Mrs. Fidget think it is appropriate to say such things in front of the children?

What do you think of the contrast between Kuniko and Chiyo?

What did you think of the song for the fish? What do you think it means that Kuniko is asleep when Chiyo tries to share her thoughts at the end of the chapter?

Chapter 2
After a hesitant start in chapter 1, I moved ahead and found a developing story instead of metaphors and atmosphere.

I don’t understand how Mr Tanako can allow the girls to be exposed to Mrs. Fidget. She is obviously there at his behest. I don’t like his intentions at this point as he knows this disrespectful woman and has directed her to perform some kind of interview and exam on the sisters for a particular purpose. He should be aware of her manner and attitudes! Or he is lackadaisical about what she’s up to.
She is the gateway for the girls to enter…what? I hope Fidget is not a permanent character in the novel!

I couldn’t care less about the song for the fish unless it falls under an incidental respect for the culture.

Chiyo has jumped to a false conclusion. I doubt Takado has any thoughts about adoption, so it was fortuitous that Kuniko is asleep and does not hear Chiyo’s thought about living there.

I was surprised reading about the invasive exam the girls received, but am not sure if that was normal on the culture then. it is shocking to us and I could not see how it woukd be appropriate in anyways especially in a way that appears to not be under consent of a parent. I am enjoying the story greatly, but do find some items uncomfortable.

the exam was weird and invasive I think there will be more to come along those lines as chiyo becomes a geisha.

Yes…can you image such an invasive touching by a stranger in someone else’s house at that age-just creepy and wrong to me.

Jakob originally encountered Sayuri in 1936, when she was already a geisha. Part of geisha culture was selling virginity, and that’s what Mr. Tanaka wanted Mrs. Fidget to confirm, the girls’ virginity. He brought the girls to her with a very specific outcome in mind. As for why the girls allowed it, in Japanese culture elders are treated with the utmost respect, and considering the era and the culture it’s my assumption that the girls went along with it as Mr. Tanaka and Mrs. Fidget are elders, as well as in a higher status social caste than the girls. Previously in the chapter, Mr. Tanaka gave Sayuri a look that said she shouldn’t dare to disagree, and she didn’t. I don’t think there would be a need for Mrs. Fidget to feel as though it was necessary to introduce herself to inconsequential children. And, yes, it is disturbing and unsettling and all kinds of wrong when we place it in today’s societal norms and context.

I felt the song for the fish is a metaphor for what is happening to the girls. Sayuri telling the fishes everything will be okay is the same as what everyone around her is saying. While Sayuri notices her father’s face looked heavier than usual and sadness is a heavy thing, she still believes all will be right. I thought her whispering to Kuniko was actually Suriyo verbalizing her inner voice. My thought on the chapter ending was: Be careful what you wish for!

Just finished chapter two! That exam that the woman did to the girls was very uncomfortable to read!

Thank you, Lisa, for the invitation to the read-along. I've wanted to read this book.
Yes, I do believe "Mrs. Fidget" considers herself above introducing herself. . . she is their superior and does not care what they think of her. I'm guessing Mrs. Fidget is evaluating how she can use the girls for income purposes.
Kuniko probably knows that Chiyo will not be living with them. There have probably been other visitors, in the past, just like Chiyo, that Kuniko never sees again.

Finished chapter 2 and I liked it more than chapter 1. I liked mostly the parts about the sea, the Japan Coastal Seafood Company and Chiyo -Chan's encounter with the fishes in the carriage.

Welcome to Day 3!

Do you think it would have been better to tell the girls in advance where they were going?

If the girls were handsome boys with charm and intelligence, what do you think would have happened to them?

What do you think of taking the girls away from their mother before she has died?

In terms of stress, the girls have lost their family, each other, their home, their friends, and their possessions. Chiyo is now losing her hair. Is this so that they lose their identity or to break them?

I'm especially interested in your last question ..

In terms of stress, the girls have lost their family, each other, their home, their friends, and their possessions. Chiyo is now losing her hair. Is this so that they lose their identity or to break them?

I think it's a little bit of both. All of the above, lol. This is slavery. The best way to get the girl(s) to obey is to make them rely on the ones in control, without questioning or causing problems.

Just finished chapter three and I have to feel so sorry for how scared and confused the girls are. I've read a few other books with this theme of not knowing where they're going and then being sold into a life they never imagined for themselves. It's always a hard type of story to read, but definitely important for understanding others.

I hated seeing the girls being separated. at least let them stay with their mom until she has passed. if they were boys this would not even be a novel because nothing crazy like this would have occurred.

While Chiyo continues with her magical thinking, believing she, her sister and her father will be adopted, Satsu takes off her apron and walks out the door. I think Satsu understands they have been sold as they are a liability in their father’s eyes. He is getting old and he will need to care for them until they marry, then they will leave to live with their husbands’ families. If they had been boys, they would have stayed with him, been able to work and provide for him. It was very surprising to me that he did this before the mother’s death though. I thought he would wait in order to have some help, but I guess this was probably an opportunity dropped in his lap.

Chiyo still can’t comprehend exactly what is happening to her, which I think is due to her age. I’m not sure she would have believed it if she had been told in advance.

The girls’ obedience and compliance is tested throughout the chapter:

--Not correcting being called by the wrong name.
--Being struck and pinched and not responding,
--Not pushing for an answer to where they are going.
--Not responding to being called garbage.

Chiyo is also told that she needs to make sure Mother likes her. I think all of this, as well as cutting her hair, is to shatter any resistance left.

I am interested to see where superstition will continue to come into play in future chapters.

Day/ Chapter 3

Q: Do you think it would have been better to tell the girls in advance where they were going?
It would have made no difference as far as their 'abduction'. So young and naive, they would not even know how to 'play' the cruel game.

Q: If the girls were handsome boys with charm and intelligence, what do you think would have happened to them?
Hence, Mr. Tanaka --charm & intelligence" the best and worst" afternoon in her life. He did very well, marrying the daughter and taking over the whole 'human' trade of the family.

Q: Taking the girls away before their mother died?
More cruelty. Heartbreaking, control and isolationism. So...in the back of my heart I wonder if the girls' father, Mr. Sakamoto-san, knew anything of what might happen to his daughters? Mr. Tanaka was his employer? Or did he also believe they would be adopted for their best? Could he not raise them without a mother figure? (How did his first family perish? sickness?)

Q: The stress of the loss of possession, family--sister, mother, father -- was it part of the plan to have them lose their identity and break them?
It was all a calculated, devious & inhumane way to keep them down. Eventually introducing a new 'family', Auntie, Grammy and Mother. I found it interesting that the Granny and Mother were not beautiful, similar to the bucktoothed Geisha that Chiyo and Kuniko spied on and that Mr. Tanaka appeared to 'know' well.

My thoughts on this Chapter 3 my biggest disappointment. Mr. Tanaka.
In Chapter 2 - Mr. Tanaka is a knight in shining armor. Sadly as much as I wanted to see Tanaka thru Chiyo's hopeful eyes; we now know that he started the cruelty in motion. A big fat liar, he had to keep Chiyo hopeful of being adopted (he probably wasn't even adopted) he only saw money.
Mr. Tanaka had been targeting Chiyo and her beauty; he knew her, where she lived and who her father was. He even gave her herbs for her mother's health. He easily fooled this little 9 year old girl with his charm - she didn't have a chance.

Just so sad…especially the timing-leaving their mother before they could say goodbye. All the confusion and despair for the girls and I can’t even imagine how the poor mother felt. To be viewed as burdens and sold…heartbreaking.

I find it sad how innocent Chiyo-Chan in regards to that they are taking her to a place before she is officially adopted. Or the fact she honestly hoping her father would be adopted as well.
It’s heartbreaking that they are being takin advantage of their innocence and selling them off.

I do wonder, even though I don’t agree them being sold off. Do they have a better chance at survival being sent off or staying in their village?

Candy wrote: "Jakob originally encountered Sayuri in 1936, when she was already a geisha. Part of geisha culture was selling virginity, and that’s what Mr. Tanaka wanted Mrs. Fidget to confirm, the girls’ virgin..."

You have some very valid points there, Candy.

Chapter 3
This story is taking me in a depressive direction. I don’t like books that take advantage of young girls, especially when their circumstances make them unusually vulnerable like these two helpless sisters.
Culture of the country or culture of the day should not offer approval no matter where or when, to what is now recognized as abduction, grooming and trafficking. Adults are supposed to be the caretakers and caregivers of the young.

The reality in which this 1930’s fictional memoir is based offends me, big-time. My sensibilities are shaken. Although the custom or what methods were used to place Chiyo in the geisha philosophy have changed, or how young women have come to choose the lifestyle, or the high regard it holds in the 21st century, I can’t ignore such atrocious attitude or behaviour from the adults running the show. Presumably, the following chapters will enlighten the readers in the process.

Joanna Lumley, a British TV presenter, devoted a session in one of her Documentary series to the modern Geisha. The practice these days, if not approved, is condoned or at least tolerated.

For me, though, I am choosing to spend my reading time elsewhere and selecting other fiction I don’t have to believe.

Thanks, Lisa, for your invitation and leadership in this discussion.

Why do you think their father allowed them to go? Do you think he felt they would have a better life? Or was it a monetary decision?

I loved chapter 3. Really reminded me of the movie. I love the way the author describes the kimonos.

Maureen wrote: "Why do you think their father allowed them to go? Do you think he felt they would have a better life? Or was it a monetary decision?"

My feeling is the father did it because he didn't know what else to do. I think it was a monetary decision made with a heavy heart, hoping that he was doing the best he could for them.

Maureen wrote: "Why do you think their father allowed them to go? Do you think he felt they would have a better life? Or was it a monetary decision?"

Definitely about the money. He had nothing and his daughters would be a burden to him until when/if they marry.

Ch. 3:
I don't believe there is a "market" for boys the same as there is for girls. Girls are prepped and trained to be geisha's in Japan.

Not sure if the father knew what would happen to his daughters or where they would be placed but he was, most likely, only thinking of his bleak situation and that he could no longer care for them. Perhaps, in his state of grief, the offer of money for his daughters seemed feasible.

Tanako seems like a very bad individual. It seems the girls are being broken down in order to lose their identity. :-(. Very sad.

This is basically human trafficking.

Welcome to Day 4/Chapter 4!

Why do you think that none of the other women have been kind to Chiyo? Or helped her with the transition?

In this chapter, we learn of China Clay which is made from lead. When combined with water, it ruined the skin. Isn't it ironic that the make-up that was supposed to make the women beautiful turned out killing them?

Chiyo starts at the Geisha school. Pumpkin describes her uncle as a "very nice man" who then told her, "You're a nice girl, but you're one of the stupid ones. You won't make it on your own in the world. I'm sending you to a place where people will tell you what to do. Do what they say, and you'll always be taken care of."

First, isn't it interesting that Pumpkin still describes this man as very nice after he just said something so horrible? Second, I found this comment very interesting. Are women taught through school to follow the rules? Are women taught to do as they are told? Or should the schools encourage thinking for yourself and taking initiative? Driving projects instead of waiting quietly for a teacher to tell you what to do?

What did you think of the Teacher Mouse telling the girl to stop playing and said "all sorts of unpleasant things about her playing"? How is that different than the teachers of modern day?

So many mean, manipulative and self-serving people…

we can say all the things we want about them being rude, and crude, and ignorant, but this was how it was at that time. a very different unique culture.

As for why none of the other women have been kind to Chiyo, I am unsure. Perhaps it is cultural, or the era, but I found it interesting that even in today’s culture, women don’t always support other women. Jealousy and competition sometimes causes women to sabotage each other in the workplace. I have been lucky to have found a few outstanding women to help me on my path, but I have also encountered others who are ruthless!

When I read about the China clay that poisons women trying to be beautiful, it hit me that we still do some of that today. How many women have quacks inject stuff into their faces, breasts and buttocks?

As for Pumpkin, I’m detecting a trend, kindness first then cruelty. Mother did the same, when she appeared helpful, then twisted her mouth in a cruel laugh when Chiyo asks about her sister’s whereabouts.

Does anyone have any idea of the significance of waiting a few months before beginning geisha school? Is it just to wait until Chiyo is totally docile?

Day/ Chapter 4
Q Why doesn't anyone be kind or help Chiyo;
Auntie did try to help Chiyo when she instructed her how to behave at her first meeting with Granny and Mother.
Hatsumomo is clearly jealous of Chiyo's beauty and her grey eyes.
Granny simply wants to have another maid to pamper her.
Mother is cold and ugly, but she did explain that Chiyo's job and that of everyone else is to help Hatsumomo be successful as a geisha. "In the past there were as many as 3 or 4" geisha in the okiya. Maybe there is a reason that Hatsumomo is the only geisha left behind in the okiya. hmmm?

Q 2. Make-up, beauty and health products are still full of poisons. The FDA still hasn't caught up to this problem. Makes me think of the book "Radium Girls" who painted themselves with florescent radium to go out on the town and party.

Q 3 Are women still being 'stifled'? In many third world countries, yes, this is still the case. In many poor communities in the United States, yes, this is still the case.

Q 4 Teacher Mouse was almost kind to Pumpkin, tried to tune her shamisen and unkind and impatient with the other students. After being introduced to Chiyo, Teacher Mouse looked her over and said "You are a clever girl. I can see it just from looking at you." Do modern day teachers --and others humans-- still think handsome looks means clever? Likely this shallowness still happens.

My take on Chapter 4, Pumpkin is destined to be a maid. She has no self-esteem; is too simple to be a geisha; eating a dirty old skewered squid right off the street; and specifically no musical, dance or singing talent. I don't see Pumpkin as unkind....yet.

Superstitions came back. Pumpkin said that her father had a curse put on him and he died. This reminded me of Hatsumomo having someone put sparks from a flint on her back before she went outside the okiya. Even Chiyo suggested that maybe Mrs Fidget was a fortune teller. Cultural belief in superstitions - I'm on the look out for more superstition references!

Oh and Candy, I think it took Mother a month to be sure that Chiyo was not going to run away and that she could handle herself well on an emotional quotient. I think that they all realized Chiyo had potential and maybe something supernatural/mystical about her high water content that showed in her startling eyes!

Maureen wrote: "Why do you think their father allowed them to go? Do you think he felt they would have a better life? Or was it a monetary decision?"

I agree with Candy. I think that the father was beaten down by life; and felt that they would have a better life. After all Mr. Tanaka was easy to believe with his charm, caring words and deeds, and his handsomeness.

Anna wrote: "Day/ Chapter 4
Q Why doesn't anyone be kind or help Chiyo;
Auntie did try to help Chiyo when she instructed her how to behave at her first meeting with Granny and Mother.
Hatsumomo is clearly j..."

Candy wrote: "As for why none of the other women have been kind to Chiyo, I am unsure. Perhaps it is cultural, or the era, but I found it interesting that even in today’s culture, women don’t always support othe..."

The Radium Girls - great book! And one which showed women supporting each other. Beyond all the lawsuits, court proceedings and lies, that was one of my big take-aways from that book. Those women stuck by each other.

Candy wrote: "Anna wrote: "Day/ Chapter 4
Q Why doesn't anyone be kind or help Chiyo;


Candy, I like your posts and discussion, make me think !

This book is hard to read for me, I get all frustrated at Chiyo's childhood enslavement, isolation. I agree with you that in this modern day women can still be cruel and unsupportive of other women in many situations. So disappointing.

Radium Girls is a great non-fiction book and for the majority of the women did form a bond and supported each other against the men in charge of the company. Some similarities (same time period) many differences (childhood enslavement, poverty levels, 3rd world problems)

Welcome to Day 5!

Isn't it odd that Hatsumomo has a kimono that costs more than the average person's yearly salary, but it is still so long that it would only fit the world's tallest woman? Why wouldn't such an expensive garment be customized to the woman? Does this symbolize that all women are seen as interchangeable?

At the beginning of the chapter, Chiyo tries to find out some information about her sister. In previous chapters, Chiyo doesn't say the most flattering things about her sister. Have you noticed that the importance of relationships change in different settings? Have you ever been out of your comfort zone and struck up a friendship with someone that you otherwise would not have?

I really enjoyed this chapter and found the school scenes to be very interesting. I wonder how accurate this novel is historically.

The one-size-fits-all kimono was curious. Until I read your question, my mind went along a different path. I thought perhaps it had something to do with a display of wealth as silk was expensive and peasants couldn’t afford it. There is such artistry in the designs used, so my second thought was artistry and adornment takes precedence. Then I thought of all those pictures of women in flowing kimonos, so I wondered if perhaps it was practical in that the kimono could be tied differently for walking versus tea service in the geisha house, where the geisha kneels and the kimono is artfully displayed.

In this chapter, Hatsumomo continues her cruelty, taking delight in knowing that Chiyo won’t be able to find her sister. Hatsumomo really is nasty, spiteful and abusive. I found the make-up routine fascinating (had to google sanbon-ashi and geisha make-up!).

While Chiyo and Satsu were opposites and didn’t appear to be close, I think Chiyo needs her sister to remind her of who she is. Her life is in upheaval and beyond Pumpkin there is no one who cares about her, or at least cares about her beyond what she can provide them with in the future. Perhaps finding Satsu will perhaps give her some sense of belonging.

Thank you, Lisa, for inviting me to this review! I’ve limited my reading to only the assignment, which has given me much more time to think deeply about the book. I am thoroughly enjoying this!

Anna wrote: "Candy wrote: "Anna wrote: "Day/ Chapter 4
Q Why doesn't anyone be kind or help Chiyo;


Candy, I like your posts and discussion, make me think !

This book is hard to read for me, I get all frust..."

Thank you! I am enjoying this immensely and look forward to continuing our conversations!