Indian Readers discussion

Hello friends ! Leena and I are going to start reading Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoevsky from 14 . 6 . 22 . Any member interested in joining this Buddy Read is most welcome !

Yup, all gung-ho

Hi , Leena ! All set to start on 14 . 6 👍 .
One advice : jot down important names to make the reading easier . Russian names are quite long and comprise of a first name , a middle name ( patronym ) and a last name which are used interchangeably .

Hi , Leena ! I began C and P on 12th itself and am now reading chapter 2 of part 1 . Have you begun the book ? You are a much faster reader than me .
Abject poverty is being described - living in a closet like room , clothes in tatters , no money for food or rent and being at the mercy of a mean money lender ! In chapter 2 Marmeladov says , " poverty is not a sin ... But destitution... that is a sin . When a man is poor he may still preserve the nobility of his inborn feelings , but when he is a destitute.... he's swept out of human society with a broom . " ! Really horrible 🤔

In chapter 2 Marmeladov's daughter Sonya ( also called Sonechka ) is introduced. Leena , she is the female protagonist . ☆☆Beware Spoilers (view spoiler)[ It's disgusting how Sonya is forced into prostitution by the taunts of her step-mother , Katerina , and the evil persuasion of the vile vulture Darya ( sounds like Dracula ! ) . Really , destitution is a curse ! (hide spoiler)] ☆☆

Hi , Leena ! Have you started C & P as yet ? No comment from you as yet .

I have finished chapter 3 . I don't like Dunya 's fiance' Pyotr . ☆☆Beware Spoilers (view spoiler)[ He is 45 years old ! A clever man of the world and a little brusque . There's something about him that makes me uneasy . A hidden background ? Dunya does not seem to like him overly and has perhaps agreed for her brother's sake ? I hope the family is not jumping from the ( Svidrigailov ) frying pan into the ( Pyotr ) fire ! (hide spoiler)] ☆☆

I am enjoying this book so far . The events and situations are described so vividly, the reader's emotions are quite aroused . I shudder at the description of poverty that is described.

Savita wrote: "I am enjoying this book so far . The events and situations are described so vividly, the reader's emotions are quite aroused . I shudder at the description of poverty that is described."

Is it the first book you read by Dostoevsky?

Yes , dely . He writes so powerfully ! The descriptions on poverty are amazing . They make you cringe and shudder ! They make you so aware of all those everyday blessings that we have in our own lives but just take for granted .
The only other Russian book I have read is Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy . In a way it also is about crime and punishment . Another very powerful book.
Have you read Crime and Punishment ?

Savita wrote: "Yes , dely . He writes so powerfully ! The descriptions on poverty are amazing . They make you cringe and shudder ! They make you so aware of all those everyday blessings that we have in our own li..."

I have read nearly everything by Dostoevsky. I miss only some minor novel and some short stories.

Tolstoj is not as able as Dostoevsky to go deep in human psychology. He is good too, but he doesn't reach the hight of Dostoevsky. In Dosto everything is about people and humanity, humility and misery; Tolstoj adds also a lot of historical facts.

Great going, Savita!

I have read only one work of Dostoevsky (C & P) and Tolstoy (War and Peace) each.
Tolstoy includes a lot of history, blends it into his fictional story and also additionally nails down his point over and over again for every few chapters.

Also the translation you choose for Tolstoy is very important. Pretty subjective.

Just based on my very limited reading of Dostoevsky and Tolstoy, I completely agree with Dely here!

Dely, what's been your favourite Dostoevsky so far?

Happy reading, Savita and Leena! :)

dely wrote: "Savita wrote: "Yes , dely . He writes so powerfully ! The descriptions on poverty are amazing . They make you cringe and shudder ! They make you so aware of all those everyday blessings that we hav..."

Nice differentiation , dely ! Thank you ! It calls to my mind the sufferings of Rodya and Marmeladov (self imposed in the case of the latter ) . So realistically described !
Have you read The House of The Dead by Dostoevsky ? Would you recommend it ? It's also called Notes from Underground .

Bookworm wrote: "Great going, Savita!

I have read only one work of Dostoevsky (C & P) and Tolstoy (War and Peace) each.
Tolstoy includes a lot of history, blends it into his fictional story and also additionally n..."

Thank you , Bookworm !
You should read Anna Karenina by Tolstoy . I enjoyed that one .
The problem with Russian literature is the long names . Also , more than one name are used for the same person . It gets confusing .
I don't know what's happened to Leena . She seems to have forgotten about this thread . I hope she joins in soon .

Bookworm wrote: "Dely, what's been your favourite Dostoevsky so far?"

My favorite book is The Idiot, but his best book is surely The Brothers Karamazov.

And I agree that Tolstoj often sounds preachy because he repeats his opinion over and over again. I forgot about it!

Savita wrote: "Nice differentiation , dely ! Thank you ! It calls to my mind the sufferings of Rodya and Marmeladov (self imposed in the case of the latter ) . So realistically described !
Have you read The House of The Dead by Dostoevsky ? Would you recommend it ? It's also called Notes from Underground "

I have read both of them, they are two different books, not the same book with different titles. The House of the Death is also called Notes from a Dead House, but not Notes from the Underground.

The first one is a autobiographical non-fiction from his life in a prison camp. It is very interesting and his deep thoughts about people are as usual very interesting. He was a huge observer of the human being. Yes, I absolutely recommend to read it.

The second one is the toughest book I've read by Dosto. It is pretty short if compared to his other books, but it is a concentration of his philosophical thoughts about the topics he likes the most. It was really very very difficult to read. I'm not sure if I would recommend this one, because it is really tough.

dely wrote: "Savita wrote: "Nice differentiation , dely ! Thank you ! It calls to my mind the sufferings of Rodya and Marmeladov (self imposed in the case of the latter ) . So realistically described !
Have you..."

Thank you so much , dely , for this information. I will read Notes from a Dead House sometime , but I am going to keep off from Notes from the Underground. The latter sounds too difficult !

Savita wrote: "dely wrote: "Savita wrote: "Nice differentiation , dely ! Thank you ! It calls to my mind the sufferings of Rodya and Marmeladov (self imposed in the case of the latter ) . So realistically describ..."

You can always give it a try, but it takes a lot of time and concentration to read.

dely wrote: "Savita wrote: "dely wrote: "Savita wrote: "Nice differentiation , dely ! Thank you ! It calls to my mind the sufferings of Rodya and Marmeladov (self imposed in the case of the latter ) . So realis..."

Hmm .... okay , but first Notes from a Dead House 🤔 . I do like to read what these great authors have to say about life and about human beings . They make such useful and thought provoking observations.... treasures to collect for a lifetime !

Savita wrote: "dely wrote: "Savita wrote: "dely wrote: "Savita wrote: "Nice differentiation , dely ! Thank you ! It calls to my mind the sufferings of Rodya and Marmeladov (self imposed in the case of the latter ..."

I absolutely agree!

dely wrote: "Savita wrote: "dely wrote: "Savita wrote: "dely wrote: "Savita wrote: "Nice differentiation , dely ! Thank you ! It calls to my mind the sufferings of Rodya and Marmeladov (self imposed in the case..."

😊👍

savita, I've not started at all. I'll do so tomorrow and catch up with you.

hey, Sherin wanted to join in too. let me message her and check.

Leena wrote: "savita, I've not started at all. I'll do so tomorrow and catch up with you.

hey, Sherin wanted to join in too. let me message her and check."

Oh so nice you're joining in tomorrow , Leena ! You're a fast reader -- you will soon catch up with me !
It's a very deep and thought provoking book . What incidents are described ! The reader can't be left unaffected . I really like some of the characters but have a total aversion to others !
I hope Sherin also joins in . She is most welcome 😊 !

I am reading chapter 7 . The chapters are short and easy to read . In chapter 4 the incident involving the drunken girl was frustrating and repulsive . ☆☆ Beware Spoilers (view spoiler)[ Nearly invisible evil co-exists with the civilized world . Vultures like Svidrigailov ( who got after Dunya ) , Darya ( who got after Sonya ) and the man-about-town ( who got after the drunk girl who had been already raped ! ) are like silent, shadowy vultures . Fearful and repulsive ! 😈
Thank God good men also exist ! Raskolnikov and Razumikhin . I like the sound of Razumikhin . I hope there's more of him in the novel . (hide spoiler)] ☆☆
Waiting for my co-readers' comments 😊

Sure savita, once I start

Sure savita, once I start

Sure savita, once I start

Just got a notification of this conversation and I hope I am not late xD.
I had completed reading Crime and Punishment (Richard Pevear translation) few months back. It's a deep study of human nature and psychology. I feel that it's not a book which should be read at once. At least I took some time off in between and that's why completed the story in almost 3 months. It's definitely a work to cherish, ponder over time. Darkness of Dostoyevsky style is very much evident in this piece of work. Hopefully you guys can cherish it as well.

Ayush wrote: "Just got a notification of this conversation and I hope I am not late xD.
I had completed reading Crime and Punishment (Richard Pevear translation) few months back. It's a deep study of human natu..."

Yes , I agree, Dostoevsky has a deep insight into human nature and psychology . He writes brilliantly ! What incidents he describes - unforgettable ! His thought provoking observations are indeed worth cherishing .
This book will probably take 2 months to complete - it's over 600 pages .

I am reading chapter 8 . There is spine chilling suspense in chapters 7 and 8 . 🤯

In chapter 7 , the conversation between the student and the young officer stirs up controversial currents in the mind . The student says , ☆☆Beware Spoilers (view spoiler)[ " I'd murder that old woman ( Alyona ) and rob her of all her money .... " . He describes Alyona as a mean , horrible , worthless , nasty old woman . " Wouldn't one petty little crime like that be atoned for by all those thousands of good deeds ? Instead of one life - thousands of lives rescued from corruption and decay .... " .
First impulse is to say yes ! Alyona was a cruel, self centered , miserable creature . ..... But , then again, NO ! We can't play God ! Divine retribution would come in its own time . Neither should we take the law into our own hands .... I suppose ? 🤔 ..... But , really , she treated poor Lizaveta so badly and was so mean to the people who came to borrow money from her .... and she was going to leave all her money to a monastery, leaving nothing for poor Lizaveta ! Wretched woman ! (hide spoiler)] ☆☆

I have reached chapter 4 / part 2 . Oh what burning agony of mind and body Raskolnikov is going through ! ☆☆Beware Spoilers (view spoiler)[ Sometimes he is delirious and burning with fever . Sometimes he just becomes unconscious . For 3 - 4 days he hasn't eaten anything ! (hide spoiler)] ☆☆

Oh , how I am getting to like Razumikhin more and more and more ! He is worth his weight in gold ! A sturdy , no nonsense friend . How lucky to have a friend like him .

This book is so easy to read ( so far ) . The story is so interesting and flowing . I am really enjoying it .
Leena , have you started it as yet ? It's a lovely book .

I have finished chapter 5 / part 2 . I was surprised by what this foolish Pyotr says : " Science tells us: ' Love yourself before all others , for everything in the world is founded upon self interest . ' " .
Does science tell us that ? It is just the opposite of what all religious texts and saints preach !
I am thoroughly annoyed by Pyotr's statement 😒

Chapter 6 / part 2 : Amazing description of the mind of an unseasoned murderer post the crime ! ☆☆Beware Spoilers (view spoiler)[ What agony is described ! Hounded by his own conscience and the police! Oh , for a free soul .... free from such torment , fever and delirium !
Will Razumikhin come to know the truth ? How will he react ? Will he consider the circumstances ? Or will he , too , despise and scorn Raskolnikov ? Will a rare friend abandon Raskolnikov to his fate ? I somehow don't think so ? Razumikhin is a gem of a man . He'll not abandon Raskolnikov. No . (hide spoiler)] ☆☆
Brilliant story telling !

Chapter 7 / part 2 : ☆☆Beware Spoilers (view spoiler)[ A man who has committed twin murders for money can be so kind and generous at heart ! How easily Raskolnikov parts with 20 precious roubles to help a torn and despairing family ! .... 20 roubles out of the sole 25 in his possession ! In return , the gratitude of the grateful family touched his fevered heart and gave it new strength and life . (hide spoiler)] ☆☆
Deeply touching and thought provoking episode . Dostoevsky is a master craftsman !

Chapter 1 / part 3 : Oh , sweet wonder ! ☆☆Beware Spoilers (view spoiler)[ Two beautiful souls have come together ! Dunya and Razumikhin . Two jewels in the midst of so much of poverty ! Razumikhin has fallen head over heels in love with noble Dunya ! Lovellyy ! Looking forward to their relationship developing with the beauty and sensitivity that Dostoevsky is so adept in handling . (hide spoiler)] ☆☆ The story is developing so beautifully !

Savita wrote: "Chapter 7 / part 2 : ☆☆Beware Spoilers [spoilers removed] ☆☆
Deeply touching and thought provoking episode . Dostoevsky is a master craftsman !"

Well, (view spoiler)[he killed them because they were evil persons. The Gospel say that evil has never to be fought with other evil, but in this case Raskolnikov found it unfair and tries to do justice by himself thinking that killing them he would have done something good for the poor. But you have to ask yourself: if a small evil like that avoids even more evil, wouldn't it be good to do it? To get rid of two women like those he was sure to do good to a lot of people. He was sure to do something good and worthy. But he didn't think about his coscience. If you are a good person, you have also a coscience and you listen to it; it's where is fever starts. (hide spoiler)]

@ dely : Nice analysis , dely !
But , I suppose if everyone took the law into their own hands there would be too much chaos . Then , there is the question of the conscience of a basically good man . Yes , that's where the fever starts .... I agree . ☆☆Beware Spoilers (view spoiler)[ It is horrible to read how Raskolnikov suffers . The horror ! The agony ! Also , he's afraid of the police . It's all very sad because he has a real wealth in the form of his simple , loving mother , his noble , selfless sister and Razumikhin , his rare and caring friend . Why did he have to go and spoil it all by murdering the two sisters ? (hide spoiler)] ☆☆

I am in chapter 7. Dostoyevsky blend suspense, philosophy, morality well throughout the scenes. Each characters have placed and narrated with their own space.

Savita wrote: "@ dely : Nice analysis , dely !
But , I suppose if everyone took the law into their own hands there would be too much chaos . Then , there is the question of the conscience of a basically good ma..."

Totally agree but I will contradict one point made by dely.
(view spoiler)[ Both women were not evil. If I remember correctly, Alyona was definitely evil but her sister, Lizaveta was simply too simple, dumb, fearful. I had been completely shocked when Raskolnikov had killed her as well. I think that was one instance when I had completely hated him as the poor woman didn't deserve such a death. But yeah, his constant fight with his own conscience made me feel bad for him. All in all, I just felt that he had a good heart which sometimes got hijacked by his own evil thoughts....thoughts which were the result of situations he had faced in life. (hide spoiler)]
It's been a while since I finished this book so in case, I mentioned something wrong then let me know. Memory can play tricks at times.

Venu wrote: "I am in chapter 7. Dostoyevsky blend suspense, philosophy, morality well throughout the scenes. Each characters have placed and narrated with their own space."

Chapter 8 is just spine chilling 🤯 !

Yes , there's a curious blend of suspense , philosophy , morality and psychology . Dostoevsky has a great insight into the human mind . He is a master craftsman . Also , his character sketches are superb .

@ Ayush and dely : It is true that ☆☆Beware Spoilers (view spoiler)[ Lizaveta was not evil . She was a very simple soul , even foolish . But , she had become a dangerous witness to Alyona's murder . She had to be killed as well if Raskolnikov was to avoid detection. To borrow a sentence from Emily Bronte's Wuthering Heights , " Fear made him cruel . " . Yes , it was the fear of being caught that made Raskolnikov cruel .... made him commit the second murder. (hide spoiler)] ☆☆
I liked the quaint use of the word " hijack " in message 38 , Ayush.

Ayush wrote: "Totally agree but I will contradict one point made by dely.
(view spoiler)."

I forgot about that detail. I've read this book a lot of years ago, so I don't remember everything perfectly.

Savita wrote: "@ dely : Nice analysis , dely !
But , I suppose if everyone took the law into their own hands there would be too much chaos."

Exactly. Justice belongs only to God. Dostoyevsky wants to show what happens if a human being thinks he can do justice by himself.

(view spoiler)["Why did he have to go and spoil it all by murdering the two sisters ?" --> I think he wanted to use a "small/quick evil" to avoid a bigger and longlasting evil; he wanted to do good to a lot of poor people that evil sister was ruining. But human beings are not allowed to make justice by themselves, at least not people that believe in God. (hide spoiler)]

Like with Hugo, also with Dostoyevsky we always have to remember their religious background. There are a lot of non-fiction about the figure of Christ in Dostoyevskys books.

@ dely : I agree with you . Ultimately , we have to face that Supreme Court upstairs ( the highest court of law - as Charles Dickens puts it ) . The evil sister , ☆☆Beware Spoilers (view spoiler)[ Alyona , would have to face it . And now Raskolnikov will also have to face it . (hide spoiler)] ☆☆ I believe our conscience is the voice of God , warning us , advising us. It’s to our own peril that we should choose to ignore its voice .

But before we face that highest court of law upstairs , there is also the human court of law to be faced . I wonder how ☆☆Beware Spoilers (view spoiler)[ Raskolnikov (hide spoiler)] ☆☆ will fare ?

Interesting to read the deliberations and arguments around the criminal psychology. E.g crime is the protest against the abnormalities of the social setup. Ordinary and extra ordinary etc.

As I read further I find it difficult to remember the names of all characters. So found this link

http://www.bookrags.com/notes/cri/chr...

Venu wrote: "Interesting to read the deliberations and arguments around the criminal psychology. E.g crime is the protest against the abnormalities of the social setup. Ordinary and extra ordinary etc."

Hmm .... I missed this sentence . This is true , I suppose, except in those cases where the crime has been committed by a human being with a psychiatric disease - like a psychopath .

Venu wrote: "As I read further I find it difficult to remember the names of all characters. So found this link

http://www.bookrags.com/notes/cri/chr......"

Very helpful list , Venu . It gives the alternative middle name and last name used suddenly by the author .
I have been using my own short names / easy associations to remember the names . Eg : Rasko for Raskolnikov ; Katerina is also the name of one of our popular ( Indian ) film stars ; Sonia is the name of our ex prime minister ; Marmeladov reminds me of marmalade ; Dounia in hindi means " the world " . 😁

Venu wrote: "Interesting to read the deliberations and arguments around the criminal psychology. E.g crime is the protest against the abnormalities of the social setup. Ordinary and extra ordinary etc."

I am reading chapter 5 / part 3 and I have just come across the sentences you've mentioned in msg 44 , about crime and the social setup. It means that you have overtaken me and gone ahead .

Oh..ok. I just started part 5

Part 5 ! Oh , I am way behind because I had caught a common cold and so my reading was a bit sluggish. I am better now so l hope I will be able to catch up. I am still reading chapter 5 / part 3 . Raskolnikov's idea of ☆☆Beware Spoilers (view spoiler)[ extraordinary people is a bit dangerous at this junction. I think Porfiry suspects him . It’s like the net is closing around Raskolnikov . He's a criminal , but he has my sympathy. Poor guy ! (hide spoiler)] ☆☆