Christian Goodreaders discussion

Hi everyone, my brother is telling my family that he’s anti Billy Graham. He says that it’s well known that Billy Graham is a rapist. He referred us to this book by Fiona Barnett. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4...

I’m not convinced by what my brother is saying. But I figured that if Billy Graham is well known for being a rapist, then someone in this group would have heard about it.

I’m aware that many Christian leaders have fallen into sin, and that some of these incidents have been widely publicised. But something doesn’t feel right with this particular accusation.

Janele, it is absolutely NOT "well known that Billy Graham is a rapist." In fact, I never heard of the idea, and suspect that it would be greeted with derision by virtually anybody who knows anything about his life, even by his anti-Christian detractors. (He was actually one of the few prominent 20th-century U.S. evangelists on whom the media was unable to dig up any dirt, despite his life and ministry being high-profile and subject to intense scrutiny.) The Wikipedia article on him (which is extensive) doesn't mention Barnett's claim.

Barnett isn't a Goodreads author, and the author profile (which has no personal information) apparently lumps together different writers with the same name. But some Google research on this particular one reveals that she's a prominent claimant to be a survivor of "Satanic Ritual Abuse," a buzz-word that generated near panic in some U.S. circles back in the 80s, before being exposed as a hoax. True to form, she claims Graham was part of a much broader secret Satanic sex-abuse conspiracy masterminded and covered up by the CIA (and also that he was a secret Freemason). Her claims would appear to be a variant of the currently notorious QAnon conspiracy theory and, IMO, not entitled to any credence.

Werner wrote: "Janele, it is absolutely NOT "well known that Billy Graham is a rapist." In fact, I never heard of the idea, and suspect that it would be greeted with derision by virtually anybody who knows anythi..."

Janelle and Werner: I've heard these vicious rumors too and they are absolutely unfounded. I agree with everything Werner said.

Thanks Werner and Bonnie.
These were my thoughts when I looked into it. But I needed confirmation to back my opinion up.

My brother is very right wing and while I can’t be sure, I think he follows Qanon.

Which brings me to another question. I’m not sure if this is the appropriate thread to post it in or if I should start another one. My brother has some extreme ideas about the state of the world and different organisations. He’s started prepping for the collapse of the world’s economy and the war he thinks is coming with China. He believes other odd things too like Hollywood is run by a satanic cabal and all sorts of other conspiracy theories. My extended family is starting to wonder if he has a mental illness.

So this is my question. How do you tell the difference between a mental illness and extreme religious beliefs? Because how extreme a religious belief is can be a matter of perspective. Some people might believe I have extreme religious beliefs because I believe God hears and answers prayer. So is there a line you can draw between what’s normal and what’s nuts in the realm of religious belief?

Janelle wrote: "I’m not sure if this is the appropriate thread to post it in or if I should start another one."

Janelle, I took the liberty (though I can change it back if you object!) of changing the title of this thread to "Conspiracy theories," and moving it to the "Current issues" folder. That seems to reflect the actual subject better, since the content of the posts aren't really about Billy Graham's actual life and contributions to the Christian mission; and the broader title opens up the subject of conspiracy theories in general, not just a narrow focus on the particular example of Fiona Barnett.

Janelle wrote: "So this is my question. How do you tell the difference between a mental illness and extreme religious beliefs? ...is there a line you can draw between what’s normal and what’s nuts in the realm of religious belief?"

I'm not an expert on the topic by any means! But for myself, I would say that the dividing line is between persons whose beliefs have a recognition of and grounding in objective, factual reality and who have an ability to distinguish between the objective and the subjective, versus persons for whom "reality" is completely subjective and who don't perceive any need for objective support for it. Of course, that distinction may be hard to draw in practice if one isn't a mind reader (and means that many people, on both the Left and the Right, who pass for "normal" and may be well regarded by their side's partisans, are in fact deranged on some points). :-(

The trouble is you can find support for almost any belief on the internet if you look hard enough, and if you don’t test your cognitive biases.
My brother can give ‘evidence” for what he believes, and he would call it objective evidence. But in doing so he ignores a world of evidence that would indicate the opposite.

My family has overlooked my brother’s odd beliefs for a long time. But the pandemic has fed his conspiracy theories to the degree that we can no longer ignore what he’s saying.

Our question now is what do we do about it.

Janelle wrote: "The trouble is you can find support for almost any belief on the internet if you look hard enough, and if you don’t test your cognitive biases. My brother can give ‘evidence” for what he believes, and he would call it objective evidence. But in doing so he ignores a world of evidence that would indicate the opposite."

An assertion of an idea on the Internet isn't the same thing as providing actual evidence for it, although many people don't distinguish the two (or psychologically can't --and that may be a matter of very deep-seated, irrational bias and/or lack of common sense, rather than what a psychiatrist would call mental illness). And recognizing, and dealing honestly with, contrary evidence is an essential hallmark of any thought process that's serious about knowing objective truth.

Not knowing your brother personally, and not having any first-hand experience with him, I can't offer any advice about that specific situation. But now that I'm aware of it, I'll certainly be holding him, and your whole family, up in my prayers!

While there have been many church leaders who have been embroiled in scandal, Billy Graham is perhaps the least likely candidate. He is so well known for his principle of never being alone with a woman who isn't his wife that it's called the 'Billy Graham Rule'. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion...
However, said rule has been criticised as 'communicating to women that they are dangerous'.
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/...

Janelle wrote: "Thanks Werner and Bonnie.
These were my thoughts when I looked into it. But I needed confirmation to back my opinion up.

My brother is very right wing and while I can’t be sure, I think he follo..."

The part about the financial collapse doesn't sound extreme to me in this current economy, when some people can't afford gas and food and inflation is out of control.

The Billy Graham rumors are nonsense, but he may just have been duped by QAnon like a lot of people.

@Werner. Thanks Werner, that actually clarifies for me how to distinguish evidence and biased ideas. Thanks for your prayers too. I know it’s really hard for my Mum to deal with.

@Peter. I’ve read about the Billy Graham rule since I heard about my brother’s accusations against him. But I’ve lived it too, many years ago when I was in a mission. I accepted it at that time, and had no idea then that it’s roots lay with Billy Graham. It’s very hard to shake.

@Bonnie yes I agree with you about the current financial difficulties. Things are getting very challenging for a lot of people. But my brother is taking it to a whole different level. He’s essentially laying out a timeline for the end of the world.

Janelle, thanks for sharing this. I think we get the idea of his thinking.

The delusional element, of course, is the dogmatic certainty that he can predict future events with absolute accuracy. Granted that the hypothetical potential for disaster exists, not only with the scenario he's adopted, but with others as well. But none of those scenarios are certainties; only God knows the exact shape of the future. He's also in control of that future, and both willing and able to protect and provide for His people even in the face of worldwide calamity.

Werner, I’m not sure if you’re referring to my last comment, or a comment that I posted and deleted. I copied and pasted an email my brother sent me. But I had a gut feeling that it wasn’t the right thing to do. Perhaps you saw it before I deleted it?

Yes, Janelle, I was actually referring to the deleted comment (I didn't know until now that it had been deleted). I can delete my comment, and this exchange --if you're more comfortable with that option?

Werner, I do appreciate what you wrote in reply to my deleted comment. It’s helpful to get an objective viewpoint.
I’m happy to keep this exchange if you think readers of this topic can follow the conversation. I think what you have written might be helpful to other people too.

Thanks, Janelle! We'll leave it as is, then.

I really do appreciate the opportunity to discuss this topic and everyone’s replies. I’m going to print out the thread for my Mum to read. She is deeply grieved over the things my brother is saying.

We'll continue to pray about the whole situation, Janelle; and we'll hope that our comments will be helpful, by God's grace!

I like Werner's description about the delusional aspect being a belief that someone knows with certainty what the future will bring. Those of us who care to look around and perhaps do some research of our own can clearly see trends shaping up, but we do not know what exactly will transpire, why or when it will happen. I think one pitfall of doing such research is thinking you have somehow discovered hidden truths and then needing to convince people to act before "it's too late". This easily becomes an obsession, and then many relationships are soured. As professing Christians, we are called to trust God, spread the good news of Jesus Christ and submit to the human governments God puts over us while we seek to live peaceably looking for His return.

There is nothing wrong with seeking to be informed, but there is when it eclipses all other aspects of our time and relationships.

There's a huge amount going on, and there always will be. Love your brother, and perhaps try to gently steer conversation to smaller and simpler themes. Read him Psalm 131:

[NKJV] 1 A Song of Ascents. Of David. LORD, my heart is not haughty, Nor my eyes lofty. Neither do I concern myself with great matters, Nor with things too profound for me. 2 Surely I have calmed and quieted my soul, Like a weaned child with his mother; Like a weaned child [is] my soul within me. 3 O Israel, hope in the LORD From this time forth and forever.

I know this passage has been very helpful to me with all that is going on in this world.

That's a wonderful Scripture for us all to take to heart, Nathan; thanks for sharing it!

I think it is worth noting on this topic that God has laid out a timeline for the end of the world already and His timeline is 100% certain. It is as present in Genesis as it is in Revelation. If your timeline digresses or is outside of these bounds, which I see a lot of these days, then you are wrong. God gave us certainty about the future because we need certainty, particularly in uncertain times. We also need hope and assurance in trying times. Nothing else matters but that Jesus Christ is coming and the time grows short in which His grace is freely offered, these two truths should consume us.

Joshua wrote: "I think it is worth noting on this topic that God has laid out a timeline for the end of the world already and His timeline is 100% certain. It is as present in Genesis as it is in Revelation. If y..."

Amen!

Thanks for your comments Nathan and Joshua.

Nathan, you have hit the mark with your description. It sounds just like my brother. He has for many years sacrificed family relationships for whatever ‘truth’ he’s been pursuing at the time. Unfortunately it’s hard to talk to him about anything other than his current favourite topic. I know my Mum is trying to show him love and kindness even though he is speaking to her harshly. I’m not able to contact him very often.

If you want what I think is a balanced look at Billy Graham and other evangelical leaders, I can really recommend Frances Fitzgerald's 2017 book, The Evangelicals: The Struggle to Shape America. Bill Graham comes out very well, with perhaps the only damaging criticism was that he got too close to Richard Nixon and allowed himself to be used ... before he broke away from that relationship. Interestingly, that was over the profane language that Nixon was heard to use on the tapes.

Oral Roberts also comes out pretty well. As for others, like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, and the Bakkers, there are a lot of unseemly revelations. But the book goes beyond these fairly recent evangelical preachers to cover the long history of evangelical thought and action in America going back to the First Great Awakening. At about 650 pages, it probably is too long for most people, but I certainly learned some things that I never knew ... like how modern American Pentecostalism came out of urban Los Angeles. The book was recognized as being an excellent history of the evangelical movement and was shortlisted for the 2017 National Book Award for nonfiction.

Thanks Larry