Georgette Heyer Fans discussion

Please post final thoughts, conclusions and any Sophy spoilers in this thread.

How did you find the book this read?

I always enjoy Sophy!

It occurred to me this time round that Sophy and Eugenia are antitheses to each other, aren't they? Sophy is an anti-Eugenia and Eugenia is an anti-Sophy.

I don't just mean that they are contrasting characters, but that they play the same part in the Rivenhall family, and their opposite characters produce opposite effects. They are both semi-outsiders, convinced that they know what's best for the family, and both interfering to do their best to bring about what they see as desired results: they are in competition, if you like, for the soul of the family, represented by Charles.

I've always felt it a weakness that we never see any indication that Sophy might be in love with Charles, but in this light her 'capture' of him is more than the conventional tying up of romantic loose ends that I've always thought it - it's a necessary symmetry and represents her victory over Eugenia and her achievement of happiness for the Rivenhalls.

I think their names are significant, too: they are both Greek, 'Eugenia' meaning 'well-born' and 'Sophia' meaning 'wisdom', which surely can't be coincidence?

Am being too fanciful, do you think, in wondering if 'Riven Hall' isn't a way of denoting 'Broken Home'?

Jenny
Great insights! You've given me something new to notice for this re-read.

Jenny wrote: "I always enjoy Sophy!

It occurred to me this time round that Sophy and Eugenia are antitheses to each other, aren't they? Sophy is an anti-Eugenia and Eugenia is an anti-Sophy.

I don't just m..."
Ooooh, “riven hall” as broken home, very true! Great points, Jenny!

I noticed this time particularly, how Sophy is concerned with the unhappy family as a whole, and doesn’t judge (Eugenia certainly does), the faults of the father, the mother, Hubert; she’s always looking to assign blame, whereas Sophy wants everyone to be happy. Sophy accepts people as and where they are - I attribute the “unnatural upbringing” she has enjoyed- Eugenia uses it as a cudgel, as if Sophy could be responsible for her mother dying, and her father being a globe-trotting diplomat who encouraged his only child to be self-sufficient! I so enjoyed my reread and relisten this time, bumped this one back up to five stars.

I've just remembered, which may be further evidence that GH was playing with name-meanings in this book, that 'Cecilia' is usually derived from the Latin for 'blind'!

I'm back for this re-read. I haven't opened a GH book for quite a while, and have done some "serious" reading since then.
The first pages are like being handed a glass of champagne after a day of business meetings:

“the dutiful presentation to her erratic and far from grateful spouse of eight pledges of her affection”

Cheers, Mrs. Heyer!

sabagrey wrote: "I'm back for this re-read. I haven't opened a GH book for quite a while, and have done some "serious" reading since then.
The first pages are like being handed a glass of champagne after a day of ..."

Beautiful description, I agree, that’s how I felt about this reread!

sabagrey wrote: "“the dutiful presentation to her erratic and far from grateful spouse of eight pledges of her affection”..."

That always makes me laugh, even after all these years!

I also like the bit earlier on the same page where it says:

The diplomatist, meanwhile, warming his coat-tails by the fire, refreshed himself with a pinch of snuff and told his sister she was putting on weight.

I do wonder how Sir Horace ever made a career as a diplomat - but he was very good at getting people to do things they didn't want to!

Susan in NC wrote: "Sophy is concerned with the unhappy family as a whole, and doesn’t judge (Eugenia certainly does), the faults of the father, the mother, Hubert; she’s always looking to assign blame, whereas Sophy wants everyone to be happy. Sophy accepts people as and where they are..."

Yes, and it's Sophy who actually brings about a real improvement in character for both Charles and Hubert in spite, or rather because of that. (Not that Eugenia sees the change in Charles as an improvement: he becomes less like her and more like Sophy). I'm reminded a bit of the fable of the sun and the wind competing to get a traveller's cloak off!

wonderful posts, everyone, I am enjoying them all very much.

Jenny wrote:

Am being too fanciful, do you think, in wondering if 'Riven Hall' isn't a way of denoting 'Broken Home'?

wow, brilliant. why not? She wouldn't choose the name without thought, would she?

Sunday quiz:

I spotted the words "humble abode", and they immediately made me think of ...

This is Goya's 'Doña Isabel Cobos de Porcel' but she is exactly how I always imagine Sancia! She ought to have black hair and needs more jewellery, I know, but I always think her face and build are perfect.

Humble abode goes with ... Mr COLLINS!!!! :D

Melindam wrote: "Humble abode goes with ... Mr COLLINS!!!! :D"

unforgettable, isn't it? :-)))

Oh yesss. :D

Jenny wrote: "This is Goya's 'Doña Isabel Cobos de Porcel' but she is exactly how I always imagine Sancia! She ought to have black hair and needs more jewellery, I know, but I always think her face and build are..."

Oh, that is lovely, and now I will always see Sancia that way - just add more jewelry and a spoon to wave as she demands, “I must have eggs!” ;)

oh, I love Sancia, what a great character and this does look like it could be her, Jenny

Eggs, I must have!


hahaha!

Critterbee❇ wrote: "Eggs, I must have!


hahaha!"

Thank you, it’s funnier said that way! ;)

Critterbee❇ wrote: "Eggs, I must have!"

"And Lope de Vega I will not have, though in general a very fine poet, but not in the kitchen!"

I do feel sorry for Sancia, being dragged out of her home on a wet evening to chaperone Sophy and then finding herself left in the lurch with Eugenia, Lord Bromford and Augustus, expected to cook for them with very inadequate facilities. I'd have jumped back in my carriage and gone home in her place, leaving Eugenia's reputation to look after itself.

Critterbee❇ wrote: "Eggs, I must have!"

She did it, long before Master Yoda! :-)

I'm not sorry for her: I get the impression that she enjoys herself tremendously.

Some people are terrific once they are pushed out of their comfort zone.

sabagrey wrote: "I'm not sorry for her: I get the impression that she enjoys herself tremendously.
Some people are terrific once they are pushed out of their comfort zone..."

Actually, on second thoughts I think you're right. It's not as if she was doing anything else, and she is having something of an adventure.

And perhaps this will allow her to feel better / less guilty about marrying Vincent while engaged to Horace.

The Grand Sophy gets a Grand Finale.

In my view, the best "ensemble showdown" that GH has written, with the one in the Unknown Ajax as runner-up.

I absolutely love the ending!

Jackie wrote: "I absolutely love the ending!"

Yes, it's a great scene, except ... Charles proposing and Sophy accepting there and then has always seemed rushed to me. We've seen how Charles' feelings for Sophy have developed, but there's never been the slightest hint that Sophy was in love with Charles, even if we do know that there are things she admires about him.

You can see why, of course: her wish to detach Eugenia from Charles has to be seen as altruistic, because if it's simply a cat fight because Eugenia's got the man she wants, then that wrecks our view of Sophy's character and spoils the whole feel of the book. And yet the symmetry does demand that Sophy end up with Charles; it's just that it's hard to see The Final Clinch as as good a result for her as it is for him. It isn't something she has obviously been hoping for.

I think I would rather have seen something a bit less immediate: Charles revealing that Eugenia has dumped him and giving a very strong hint that he has a replacement in mind, with Sophy demurely but mischievously conveying that she understands him and wouldn't be averse to the notion. I think that would have been more believable, while still tying things up neatly.

Jenny wrote: "... but there's never been the slightest hint that Sophy was in love with Charles, ."

It obviously depends on what you take as hints and how you read them. Even Sophy's friends know what she is up to. Maybe it also depends on how you define "being in love" - if it involves fluttering and blushing, that's not Sophy, obviously :-)) - I never felt that the ending was "rushed".

I think Sophy is not overwhelmed by her emotions - anger, fear, happiness, etc. She is so composed, and very practical, or at least doesn't let emotions show -she feels them but has them under tight control.

When she says that
"Nonesense! It would not suit me at all to be going to London yet!"
we see that she does have plans for Charles which involve her.

Or maybe she is not overly sentimental. I am thinking more about it...

I think there are enough hints as to what Sophy has planned that the ending does not seem rushed to me.

"strongly practical" means she would not allow herself to fall in love with a man who was poor, but we also see her evaluating Charles from the first and deciding his bad points are all fixable.

Jackie wrote: "I think there are enough hints as to what Sophy has planned that the ending does not seem rushed to me.

"strongly practical" means she would not allow herself to fall in love with a man who was p..."

I always felt I could start looking for the signs from the point on where her dog goes to Charles.

I often changed my opinion of people watching my shy dog react to them - both ways. I didn't quite fall in love, though, based on dog-watching ;-))

sabagrey wrote

from the point on where her dog goes to Charles

yes, and that was very early on, maybe even on first meeting? I think dogs know and Heyer clearly thought so, too.

Critterbee❇ wrote: "When she says that
"Nonsense! It would not suit me at all to be going to London yet!"
we see that she does have plans for Charles which involve her...."
Do you think so? I don't see anything there more than just her plans for Eugenia. I can't see that it means she has feelings for Charles herself.

Jenny wrote: "Critterbee❇ wrote: "When she says that
"Nonsense! It would not suit me at all to be going to London yet!"
we see that she does have plans for Charles which involve her...."
Do you think so? I don't..."

Hmm, I think the use of 'Nonsense!' makes it seem like her feelings are stronger than just saving the family, like she also has her heart involved. That was my impressions, but I might be reading WAY too much into it though. haha!

It is not just this one word.

For one thing, she is as much a "family person" as Charles is. She loves Charles *plus his family*, just as he had wanted a wife for himself *plus his family* (or maybe even the other way round) - only Eugenia turned out to be the worst possible choice. Sophy's "love affair" with the family begins very much at the beginning. And I see no sign that she does not include Charles in it from early on.

sabagrey wrote: "She loves Charles *plus his family*..."

But does she? This isn't the first family whose affairs she's managed: we're told about the LeBruns in Brussels that she behaved in a similar way towards. And feeling affection towards a family doesn't remotely imply falling in love with their son. She's not in love with Hubert, after all (who is still older than her, even if he doesn't seem so).
I can't detect any feeling more than sisterly in her dealings with Charles - and if her nature isn't emotional or demonstrative, with other heroines GH doesn't hesitate to show something of their feelings by interior dialogue or direct description, which she could have done here.
I don't mean that she didn't mean us to suppose Sophy wanted to marry Charles; just that there was actually no sign of it right up until she accepted his proposal.

Jenny wrote: "I don't mean that she didn't mean us to suppose Sophy wanted to marry Charles; just that there was actually no sign of it right up until she accepted his proposal.."

well, let's say: "love is in the eye of the beholder"

There are several hints that Sophy realises Charles's change in his feelings for her, and I can't imagine that, if she didn't reciprocate them, she'd not have a plan to find him a better match as she does for Cecilia and Charlbury. I think the speed of his declaration takes her by surprise, but I don't think there's any indication that she hasn't been meaning to marry him from the moment she decided to detach Eugenia from him.

I agree there are hints, but darned if I can remember them! I know since I have re-read it many times I always think Sophy absolutely knows she approves of and will end up with Charles.

Emma, you make a good point she would have a plan for Charles with someone else if it wasn't her.

I know I am really in the minority here, but I did not really enjoy "The Grand Sophy"....I think Sophy is a fantastic character and she is the only part I liked about the book. However, I could not get past Charles. I found him unlikable and thought Sophy was way too good for him. I would have much rather had the hero be Lord Charlbury. I cannot see myself reading this book again, which is disappointing because Sophy is a great character. But overall, she is not really worth it enough for me to feel like I need to read the book again. Excluding my dislike of Charles, the book as a whole I did not find to be as enjoyable. I really wanted to like it because I know it is many people's favorite, but this one just did not grab me.

I started last night. That household definitely needs a good shaking up! And Charles does for sure!

Lauren wrote: "I know I am really in the minority here, but I did not really enjoy "The Grand Sophy"....I think Sophy is a fantastic character and she is the only part I liked about the book. However, I could not..."

It's not a favourite of mine either Lauren. I haven't read it in a long time so it will be interesting to see if I have a change of heart this time.

Teresa wrote: "I started last night. That household definitely needs a good shaking up! And Charles does for sure!"

Yes! I’m amazed that every time I reread this book, my feelings change about Charles. I always enjoy Sophy, Charlbury, Sancia, chuckle over the self-absorbed poet, and Sophy’s diplomatic papa (who rudely tells his sister within the first five minutes that she’s gaining weight!) - but Charles sometimes makes me feel sympathetic, as a put-upon young man with many responsibilities, but other times I want to box his ears! I think that’s why it’s a favorite- I’m always entertained, and each time feels different.

Lauren wrote: "However, I could not get past Charles. I found him unlikable and thought Sophy was way too good for him...."

Yes, it took me a long time and many reads to see much in Charles. Over the years though - and prompted by discussions on here! - I've come to see that obnoxious as he is to start with, he does change; and the unpleasant characteristics that dominate our initial view of him are down to circumstances. He's worried about money, and about all the people that are depending on him to sort something out but who are impeding him rather than helping; and Eugenia is encouraging him to be domineering and censorious.
The crunch really comes with Hubert and the moneylender: that's when he realises that the judgmental approach isn't working and that he doesn't at heart agree with Eugenia's ethics. That loosens Eugenia's hold over him, as well as giving him something of an ally in Hubert so that he feels a little less beleaguered, and from then on he does become a nicer person.
The conflict is epitomised in the conversation he has with Sophy about the monkey, when she tells him

"You cannot feed Jacko on bits of apple, and teach him tricks, and warn the children to give him a blanket at night one day, and the next say he must be got rid of!"

Charles has a kind-hearted and fun-loving side to him (that Eugenia disapproves of) and which he is earnestly trying to suppress, but which like Jacko is inclined to erupt from the basement!

Long time intermittent lurker here--had to de-lurk to join in to talk about my favorite Heyer. :)

I used to not care for Charles, either, but my feelings about his suitability for Sophy have evolved. Yes, he's been thrust into acting as the head of the family way before his time, and you can't blame him for not having the experience and emotional maturity to handle it as well as he might. But I think he's just right for Sophy. He's under no illusions about her--understands immediately what she's about when she runs off to Lacy Manor with Charlbury, because he's already seen her methods (Hubert and so on), but by then I think he also knows that she cares very much for them--him included. Their jousting and sparring and challenging each other is their love language.

Marissa wrote: "Their jousting and sparring and challenging each other is their love language.."

Exactly - there's no-one with whom Sophy can do the verbal sparring - which she loves - better than with Charles.

In fact, I like Charles better than many of the (too) smooth, perfect "gentlemen" heroes - he feels more real in his mixture of disagreeable and nice traits.

Marissa wrote: "Long time intermittent lurker here--had to de-lurk to join in to talk about my favorite Heyer. :)

I used to not care for Charles, either, but my feelings about his suitability for Sophy have evolv..."
'Long time intermittent lurker'---I love it!!!

Lauren wrote: "I know I am really in the minority here, but I did not really enjoy "The Grand Sophy"....I think Sophy is a fantastic character and she is the only part I liked about the book. However, I could not..."

I adore Sophy as well, and love that she does not let anyone make her unhappy! She is so confident. She really gave me strength when I needed it. Never despair, never give up!

Marissa wrote: "Long time intermittent lurker here--had to de-lurk to join in to talk about my favorite Heyer. :)

I used to not care for Charles, either, but my feelings about his suitability for Sophy have evolv..."

I am glad you unlurked to share you thoughts with us! I agree with what you said, Charles knows Sophy so well. I think he understands when he goes upstairs that he will end up with Sophia (perhaps even earlier, when he tells Horace that he will wring Sophy's neck) I think Horace sees it as well.

All those scenes with Charles and Sophy have such intensity or sweetness, when I am reading it now I see how emotional he is with her instead of being cold or snubbing her. And the times when they communicate perfectly, when he apologizes for speaking about her to Eugenia, after Hubert's confession, in Annabell's sickroom, and when talking to her about making herself the talk of the town.

Marissa wrote: "Long time intermittent lurker here--had to de-lurk to join in to talk about my favorite Heyer. :)

I used to not care for Charles, either, but my feelings about his suitability for Sophy have evolv..."

Excellent points, thank you!