Georgette Heyer Fans discussion

Well, in a little over an hour it will be 2023 in my country! Hard to believe.

So this is the non spoilers thread for Black Sheep - my favourite Heyer with an 'older' heroine. For spoilers please use spoiler tags or post in the spoilers thread. We don't want to spoil a first read for anyone!

Is this anyone's first read?

How many times have you read this book?

What format are you using?

Enjoy!

I have read this title at least 60 time.

It looks like my old Pan paperback is good for another round!

looking forward to this re-read! ... I've recently re-read a GH that I did not like very much the first time round, and it improved very much on the re-read. So I hope it will not be the other way round with The Black Sheep. ;-)

Black Sheep
My cover on my ebook on my iPad!

I have read this innumerable times since my first read in my teens. I am looking forward to this re-read as it follows LoQ so swiftly. Just watched Sydney welcome 2023 live on tv. Our son and daughter in law were there (on holiday) and whatsApped us a little before the celebrations. What a phenomenal atmosphere. Happy 2023 to everyone! 😘🎉

Susan, that sounds like an incredible holiday! Happy 2023 to everyone - going out to lunch with my husband and son, celebrating successful health outcomes band welcoming the New Year, full of hope and possibilities, especially poignant as this has been a family favorite restaurant that has been closed on weekends since pandemic. Want to go support this favorite making slow strides back to normalcy!

I am listening to the delightful Audible , beautifully narrated by Barbara Leigh-Hunt. Just listened the other day to first meeting between Miles and Abby, and it always makes me laugh!

Happy New Year Everybody!

I have read this one about 7 or 8 times, and enjoy it, though it is not one of my favorites. I will be reading on my new kindle, and the cover looks like:


Very interesting that the two top results both have ladies reclining on the cover!

I'll be starting my umpteenth re-read (first read in 1968). It's in my top 10 for GH and always has been. I'll be using this copy-- .
Abby would never be caught lounging like that!

This is the cover of my first paperback, which I read to death.

sabagrey wrote: "looking forward to this re-read! ... I've recently re-read a GH that I did not like very much the first time round, and it improved very much on the re-read. So I hope it will not be the other way ..."

I've had many GH's improve for me since reading as an adult (I had read most of her historical romances as a teen, certainly before I turned 21)

"What better way to spend NYE than with my favourite author," thought I - & I am very close to half way through!

I'm loving the (view spoiler)[dialogue & the way the attraction between Miles & Abigail is handled! (hide spoiler)]

This is my second read. I remember liking but not loving it the first time so I'm excited to give it a second chance.

I have read it many times and just re-read it in December on my kindle. Barb in Maryland, I used to have that paperbook and read it until it fell apart!

I love the way GH sets the scene so brilliantly in BS. All the important plot points are set forth in the first chapters. We know who Abby is, the place she occupies in the family, the relationship between the older sister Selena, the younger, Abby and the potential problems which emerge from their care of the 17 year old Fanny.

We can anticipate the conflict to come just from those well constructed scenes at the beginning. Bring it on!

I'm still new to this forum and not sure how to reply directly but to the person who is listening to this: where did you find the audiobook?? It's SO hard to find unabridged Georgette Heyer audiobooks in the US; I've been on a library waiting list for eighteen months now for two or three of them and I'd gladly purchase them.

This has been sitting on my shelf for a while, and as you can see is my first read of this book. I have the paperback with the cover with the girl in pink that CB posted.

bluerose wrote: "I'm still new to this forum and not sure how to reply directly ..."

Hello!
Right underneath each post, in blue, very small and on the right, is the word 'reply' - if you click on that it opens a new box with

< i >Thingummy wrote: "The beginning of the post you want to reply to..."< / i >

already filled in. You can edit that to make it clearer what part you're replying to, either by deleting some bits or copying and pasting another part of the post in between the italics markers (< i > and < / i > )

Hope that helps.

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "I have read this title at least 60 time.

It looks like my old Pan paperback is good for another round! "

That's the one I've got! It's good, isn't it? Apart from Abby wearing pink and yellow, which is one of my least favourite colour combinations. But I think it captures them both well, and there are the Stanton Drew standing stones right behind them. Try https://sonichits.com/video/The_Yetti... to hear a song that relates the legend of the stones.

Susan in Perthshire wrote: "I love the way GH sets the scene so brilliantly in BS. All the important plot points are set forth in the first chapters. We know who Abby is, the place she occupies in the family, the relationship..."

Yes, that's what strikes me, too. I particularly like the fact that, unlike some other heroines, Abby doesn't actually need a husband and isn't particularly looking for one.

bluerose wrote: "I'm still new to this forum and not sure how to reply directly but to the person who is listening to this: where did you find the audiobook?? It's SO hard to find unabridged Georgette Heyer audiobo..."

Hi, blue, I have the audiobook through Audible, purchased a few years ago. I don’t know why, but several unabridged Heyer audiobooks I used to get through my library have become unavailable. Some titles I wish I had purchased with credits on Audible have disappeared, and when I search, they say “not available for purchase in your country at this time”. I’m glad I started using my credits a few years ago to build my personal Heyer library!

Ladiibbug wrote: "My first read of "Black Sheep" was years ago, so happy to revisit. A free copy can be read at www.gutenberg.org . My county library has removed Heyer completely from all catalog option! Libby does ..."

Teri--Too bad, and a bit short-sighted of your library system to remove their GH titles. What were they thinking?
However, there's only two Heyer titles on Project Gutenberg--Black Moth and Transformation of Philip Jettan. Heyer's Black Sheep was published in 1966 and is still under copyright.

Most of GH's novels are available at archive.org

I have to say I'm enjoying this much more the second time through. The first time I read it was just after I had first discovered Heyer in 2020. I had some time on my hands (I'm sure you can guess why) and read almost all her books one right after the other in a year. I think it might have just gotten lost in the shuffle a bit. I always did like Abby, but now I'm appreciating the other characters more.

Thanks for moving the book availability post, Ladiibbug. I prefer sales info to go in its own thread, as it usually isn't relevant if someone wants to comment in the thread.

There is a delete option under all of your own posts. Moderators can delete posts too.

Jenny wrote: "
That's the one I've got! It'..."

The old Pans seemed to specialise in tacky colour combos!

This is one of my favorites and on my last read, in 2020, I bumped it up to tied for the top spot ahead of Frederica. Reading it right after Austen was interesting. Heyer borrows a lot of phrases from Austen and of course, the Bath setting. I read this with a map of 19th-century Bath on my wall so I can follow along with the characters.

Usually I read the first American edition but in 2020 the library was closed so I read the e-book on Hoopla.

It's not as similar of LoQ as it sounds on the surface.

I've read this once before, in 2017, and I liked it quite a bit - gave it four stars. I remember enjoying the older hero and heroine, and I'm looking forward to reading it again.

Libby has it, but there are 14 people ahead of me, so I've ordered a used copy. It will have this cover - not my favorite but that's OK.


I had a copy with a different cover, but those books disappeared in a move. I'm looking forward to revisiting this and seeing other's comments.

Having started the book today, I found out that it didn´t have the pink girl cover but this one: . ;)

Michaela wrote: "Having started the book today, I found out that it didn´t have the pink girl cover but this one: . ;)"

I haven't seen that cover before. It's really nice!

It’s on my Kindle version too.

I have the same paperback copy as Michaela, as it is one of a set I just bought (see Heyer books for sale thread) but I'll probably read the beat-up copy I checked out from the library, to preserve this pretty copy for a little while. This will be my third time reading it. I know it's good fun.

Michaela wrote: "Having started the book today, I found out that it didn´t have the pink girl cover but this one: . ;)"

I really like that cover!

I've started reading William Dalrymple's The Anarchy, a history of the East India Company, and it is making me wonder exactly how Miles acquired his fortune in India - from the little I've read so far it sounds like the EIC indulged in some very shady, not to say predatory, practices. Dalrymple writes in his introduction: "Bengal's wealth rapidly drained into Britain, while its prosperous weavers and artisans were coerced 'like so many slaves' by their new masters." Miles talks to Abby about how "India suited him down to the ground", but I do wonder what he glosses over in how he made money. Was he a part of the EIC, acting as a sort of corporate raider? or just took advantage of the conditions they created? And I wonder what Heyer herself knew about the activities of the British in India at this time, which would have been before India was an official colonial possession and under direct governance by Britain.

Emma wrote: "the EIC indulged in some very shady, not to say predatory, practices. And I wonder what Heyer herself knew about the activities of the British in India at this time."

hm ... I think you put the EIC's practices very mildly.

If you consider that the European imperialist mindset took a veeeery long time to subside (in fact, you can still find its traces in many Europeans' opinions that those people in the Global South are themselves responsible for poverty etc.), we can safely assume that GH, at the time of her writing, shared those views.

History was also written in that mindset, so even if she had the facts about India of the period, they would have been presented from the dominant colonialist & racist perspective (winners get to write the history ...)

GH was - roughly - my grandmother's generation, so I did get some first-hand insight into a generation whose thinking was so totally different from ours on such subjects that certain notions sounded completely weird to them, especially to people who were on the conservative side of the political spectrum (as GH was).

sabagrey wrote: "History was also written in that mindset, so even if she had the facts about India of the period, they would have been presented from the dominant colonialist & racist perspective (winners get to write the history ...)"

Dalrymple also notes that, in the later Victorian period, when Britain had essentially taken over India from the EIC, they were rather embarrassed by the earlier activities of the company, and did make efforts to gloss over it. I wonder if Heyer was aware of that rewriting of history, or whether she thought that the early history of the British in India was indeed more Westerners bringing culture and good governance to the East than shovelling riches into the pockets of private enterprise, and caring nothing for those who were killed or impoverished in the process.

Emma wrote: "I wonder if Heyer was aware of that rewriting of history, or whether she thought that the early history of the British in India was indeed more Westerners bringing culture and good governance to the East than shovelling riches into the pockets of private enterprise, and caring nothing for those who were killed or impoverished in the process"

I don't know how old you are .... the history I learned in school (in the 60s) was very different from what I discovered later on - on my own, with my generation. There would not have been many critical voices in Heyer's time to denounce the rewriting of history, and those only for the few who wanted to hear.

I certainly remember from my own childhood in the late 50s the large number of countries coloured pink in the atlas, which were somehow 'ours'. I don't remember being told so specifically, but the impression I seem to have got was that this was a source of pride, and that these countries were lucky to have us - of course, this view would also have been reinforced by reading books from our parents' and grandparents' (and Georgette Heyer's!) childhoods: Kipling, Rider Haggard, E. Nesbit, R.L. Stevenson and so on. Even in the 60s we were still happily singing "Mow him down, the Swazi warrior" round the campfire at Guide camps.

I don't suppose GH gave the ethical implications of Miles' fortune a moment's thought.

I'm going to sit this one out... I remember reading Black Sheep in my teens and did not really understand the mature romance or nuances in language. Back then, Friday's Child was my favorite ho, ho...I would have a better appreciation for it now but too many things are already keeping me busy...

I do very much enjoy reading the discussions here and the other thread. A belated Happy New Year to all!

Jenny wrote: "I don't suppose GH gave the ethical implications of Miles' fortune a moment's thought.
.."

I agree. Sometime characters have property in the West Indies and you know that means slaves. With slavery some people condemned the practice and you'll find modern Regency romances with heroes who freed their slaves but by and large taking advantage of people of color was normal and accepted practice for Europeans and Americans at that time. Georgette Heyer grew up in the time of eugenics and pseudo-scientific studies and no doubt believed in all that nonsense, as most people, even educated professional psychologists believed. Her novels are honest and accurate and I prefer that, as distasteful as it is, to sweeping it under the rug and pretending it didn't happen.

QNPoohBear wrote: "Sometime characters have property in the West Indies and you know that means slaves.."

There was a strong abolitionist movement in England at the time ... so that slave trade was banned (in 1807 or so?) - not slave possession yet. So there was awareness in the Regency Era already, but GH chose to leave it out ... as almost every other social problem known at the time: the 'Luddites' are mentioned once, but only as a nuisance (in The Unknown Ajax), the misery of the working class only in the context of philanthropy (in The Nonesuch). (view spoiler)[ We can only hope that progressive Drusilla will take her husband to task about slavery in his Jamaican plantations (The Quiet Gentleman) (hide spoiler)]

GH created her 'Regency World' as an upper class idyll; that was her choice and we like to read something idyllic from time to time, why not? As long as we take it for fantasy, not reality ...

(for my part, my initial outrage about her reactionary social blindness led me to read up a little about the period ... beginning with the authors her characters deride: Wollstonecraft, Godwin, and so on. So it did me some good, indirectly ;-))

sabagrey wrote: "QNPoohBear wrote: "Sometime characters have property in the West Indies and you know that means slaves.."

There was a strong abolitionist movement in England at the time ... so that slave trade wa..."

I think your analysis is spot on. She ignores the political and social realities of the Georgian and Regency periods and writes a very airbrushed, fantasy version of life at the time for the very fortunate few.

Because she’s so skilled, she entertains the reader in every way - plot, character and language. I don’t read Heyer for historical insights into the horrors of the period. I studied all of that in enormous detail, at University instead. So I know that virtually all of the aristocratic families made their money through exploitation of the working classes everywhere and that included through slavery in the West Indies.

I read Heyer for entertainment and emotional satisfaction and she fulfills that desire - brilliantly. I think I would have disagreed vehemently with GH on many topics had I actually met her - but she remains a favourite writer because of the pleasure she has given me over the years.

Susan in Perthshire wrote: "sabagrey wrote: "QNPoohBear wrote: "Sometime characters have property in the West Indies and you know that means slaves.."

There was a strong abolitionist movement in England at the time ... so th..."

Same here - university had plenty of that, and the nightly news is full of the vestiges of the iniquities of that time. I’d say the entire romance genre is escapism, whether more witty, well researched and written efforts like Heyer, or the cheesiest, hackneyed bodice-ripper! I feel reading/rereading Heyer once a month is a mental palate cleanser for me! Otherwise, I read a lot of mysteries and nonfiction.

sabagrey wrote: "There would not have been many critical voices in Heyer's time to denounce the rewriting of history, and those only for the few who wanted to hear..."

That's a good point, even for someone like Heyer who did extensive research. I'm not sure when Black Sheep is meant to be set - it's one of her books which could almost have been set at any time, there's so few references in it to then-contemporary events - so she may not have been aware of, as Jenny phrased it, the ethical implications of Miles' fortune having been acquired at that time.

It's certainly something I had never thought about in my earlier readings of the book! (but I'm also no historian and gave up studying history even before GCSEs)

Emma wrote: "sabagrey wrote: "There would not have been many critical voices in Heyer's time to denounce the rewriting of history, and those only for the few who wanted to hear..."

That's a good point, even fo..."

Black Sheep is set in 1816/17 because it’s stated that Stacy cannot open a gambling house in Paris because "with Napoleon on Helena, all the English are flocking to Paris".

For some reason I thought we had a break in January so didn't notice till now that we're almost halfway through this Group read. I'm going to start this weekend. I have the copy that's Black Sheep and The Grand Sophy together. It wasn't supposed to be, but that's what showed up when I bought it (second-hand online).

Julia wrote: "For some reason I thought we had a break in January so didn't notice till now that we're almost halfway through this Group read. I'm going to start this weekend. I have the copy that's Black Sheep ..."

Enjoy, Julia!

Julia wrote: "For some reason I thought we had a break in January so didn't notice till now that we're almost halfway through this Group read. I'm going to start this weekend. I have the copy that's Black Sheep ..."

Oh, two winners for the price of one! ;) enjoy!

Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Black Sheep is set in 1816/17 because it’s stated that Stacy cannot open a gambling house in Paris because "with Napoleon on Helena, all the English are flocking to Paris".."
There's nearly always some little clue to pinpoint the date the novel's set in if you care to look for it, isn't there? They'll make odd references to "Waterloo - June last year wasn't it?" or "Ever since Brummell had to make a run for it" or "The poor Queen won't last the year out". She very rarely tells us the date outright, as she does in Regency Buck but there's usually some reference to pick up on.

Jenny wrote: "Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Black Sheep is set in 1816/17 because it’s stated that Stacy cannot open a gambling house in Paris because "with Napoleon on Helena, all the English are flocking to Pari..."

Yes, after the info-dumping of RB, she became much more subtle. It’s fun to pick up those hints and tie it down to a particular year and season. I’ve notices she set a lot of her book around 1817, although she tends to ignore all the socio economic issues which bedevilled the country after the Napoleonic wars ended.

Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Yes, after the info-dumping of RB, she became much more subtle. It’s fun to pick up those hints and tie it down to a particular year and season."

it's fun to do it oneself, isn't it? - Here's a chronology of the books' settings, with the cues, to check your guesses:

https://www.georgette-heyer.com/chron...

Sabagrey - thank you, that’s a great resource. I couldn’t help but check and at least 10 of her books are set in 1817.

Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Sabagrey - thank you, that’s a great resource. I couldn’t help but check and at least 10 of her books are set in 1817."

a lot of the books are set in the period 1816 - 1818. Maybe that seemed to be to GH a sufficiently 'peaceful' period? - Which, of course, it was not; but we know she chose to ignore all of the socio-economic issues, as you say.

I have wondered sometimes why 'her' Regency period ends in 1818 - no book set later. Was it because The Peterloo Massacre of 1819 was an event not even she could ignore? Or sth. else?