Georgette Heyer Fans discussion

For open spoilers & final conclusions!

Ok, I’m only about halfway through my reread, but I was immediately struck anew, when listening to the hilarious first meeting between Miles and Abby, how very different, refreshing, charming and undeniably attractive he must have appeared, given her lovely, but rather buttoned up life! Just the way she, in her own mind, thinks of the gentlemen of her acquaintance, not to mention her family, he would seem utterly different, and I think to one of her intelligence and passionate nature, extremely attractive! He’s so witty and charming, and doesn’t take himself at all seriously.

I'm interested in reading this so closely after finishing Lady of Quality!

Critterbee❇ wrote: "I'm interested in reading this so closely after finishing Lady of Quality!"

Yes any comparisons of the two books should go here! I'm going to allow open spoilers for LofQ in this thread only. :)

Good thinking, Carol, should make for interesting discussion; I find the comparisons striking between the two books, Critterbee. I’ve always found Miles the more attractive hero, because of his self-deprecating and dry sense of humor. I appreciate it, as that’s the type of sense of humor my husband has! And the way Miles looks after the ill young gentleman returning from India without fuss or complaint, just because it’s the right thing to do.

I've finished already - still love it.

Miles remains one of my favourite GH heroes - mainly because of his honesty.

I absolutely love the meeting between Abby and Miles! and I enjoy watching how quickly and easily he manages to charm her. well, it's mutual of course.

But the very best part of the story is when Stacy gets what's coming to him, it's so much fun to watch.

Susan in NC wrote: "Ok, I’m only about halfway through my reread, but I was immediately struck anew, when listening to the hilarious first meeting between Miles and Abby, how very different, refreshing, charming and u..."

I so agree. From the minute he comes on stage, Miles has my total attention!

Carol, I’ve finished it too! Still suffering from COVID so really tired - but I can read! So I did and found I just could not stop!

Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "Ok, I’m only about halfway through my reread, but I was immediately struck anew, when listening to the hilarious first meeting between Miles and Abby, how very different, refres..."

Susan, I’m sending healing energy and virtual hugs your way! Sometimes, just being able to read is healing - especially an enjoyable favorite like this story. Miles is one of my favorite GH heroes, also - he’s so refreshing and different.

Take your recovery slowly, when my husband and I had Covid last spring, it took a couple weeks to really feel back to good health.

re-read finished.

The Abby-Miles dialogues certainly stand out - they must be among GH's best. Otherwise the book is a bit thin in plot, except for the Mrs. Markham intrigue, and the side characters don't get much to do.

For example, the "worthy suitor" figure in BS (Dunston) gets even less page time and characterization than the one in LoQ (Beckenham or so), Oliver remains flat compared to Ninian, and so on.

Let's say: the protagonist couple are first rate, but they deserve a better supporting cast and plot.

It seems that GH saw 'her' Regency period as very civilised and refined, as we find most of the hilarious action - hold-ups, abductions, duels, etc. - in the books set in the 18th century. I like them ...

sabagrey wrote: "re-read finished.

The Abby-Miles dialogues certainly stand out - they must be among GH's best. Otherwise the book is a bit thin in plot, except for the Mrs. Markham intrigue, and the side charact..."

& in a critique I read of GH's books they said GH (a young Edwardian herself) had her Regency characters behave more like Edwardians!

Just finished my reread, and I still love Miles and Abby and their dialogue, passion for each other, and shared humor. I still rate this as a favorite because of them.

But I agree with Sabagrey, the other characters don’t have as much to do, and I agree, Oliver seems sweet and good, but rather flat when I remember Ninian.

Comparing Selena and the annoying prattler from LofQ (cousin Maria, I think?), I admit Selena seems more sincere - I had forgotten the scene between her and Abby after James’ visit. He was a real pig to threaten her with being cut off from the family, and it clearly upset her deeply- it took real courage for her to stand up against him and choose Abby. Her emotional blackmail was selfish, but given the role of spinster older ladies, understandable. I think Miles is right, though, Miss Butterbank will do nicely…

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "sabagrey wrote: "re-read finished.

The Abby-Miles dialogues certainly stand out - they must be among GH's best. Otherwise the book is a bit thin in plot, except for the Mrs. Markham intrigue, and..."

Interesting point!

I love Miles and his sense of humor. The meet cute is hilarious. Like Abby, I would be annoyed by his teasing but it's easy to fall in love with Miles. Miles isn't so nasty as Oliver who is a care for nobody. Miles pretends he doesn't care about Stacy or the estate or anything but he was kind to the boy on the ship back from India and he came HOME in the first place! I think he's a rogue. I like the roguish heroes with a twinkle in their eye.

Abby and Miles mock the conventions with their witty dialogue and sarcastic humor. They perfectly understand one another and it's easy to see how and why they fall in love.

Fanny is kind of annoying but she's a teenager and I think she'll mature.

Stacy is awful and the prank Miles plays on Stacy to get Stacy to back off is hilarious.

Selina is not like Maria. She's ill when we first meet her and she's not as sharp as her little sister. Selina is older and more conventional than Abby. She doesn't have the education, intelligence or strength of character to be as unconventional as Abby. Maria bends over backwards to please SOMEONE, ANYONE and when Annis starts behaving in a way Maria considers immoral, Maria turns into a spy and sneak.

Both Abby and Annis have stuffy brothers but I think Annis's brother Geoffrey is much more caring. He truly doesn't want his sister to fall in love and be hurt while Abby's brother is more about power and control. The family name and reputation comes above personal happiness and he's prepared to cut Abby off from her family if necessary. That's cruel not just to Abby but to Selina and Fanny who are still dependent on him.

Is the doctor married? Can we marry him off to Selina? Fanny will hopefully marry her friend's brother and all will be well and everyone will love happily ever after.

QNPoohBear wrote: "I love Miles and his sense of humor. The meet cute is hilarious. Like Abby, I would be annoyed by his teasing but it's easy to fall in love with Miles. Miles isn't so nasty as Oliver who is a care ..."

You sum up the differences very nicely between Selina/Maria and James/Geoffrey, and I agree completely. I think Fanny and Oliver would be a great couple - he’s already in love with her I think, perhaps she could grow to appreciate him.

an excellent post, QNPoohBear, and your ending is perfect.

The problem with young Oliver is that he's young but since Fanny doesn't come into her inheritance for quite awhile, they can wait until he's older and more established. I think Miles will help and he'll say it's to please Abby but I think he's a softie at heart.

QNPoohBear wrote: "The problem with young Oliver is that he's young but since Fanny doesn't come into her inheritance for quite awhile, they can wait until he's older and more established. I think Miles will help and..."

And I think he likes Oliver.

sabagrey wrote: "re-read finished.

The Abby-Miles dialogues certainly stand out - they must be among GH's best. Otherwise the book is a bit thin in plot, except for the Mrs. Markham intrigue, and the side characters don't get much to do.

For example, the "worthy suitor" figure in BS (Dunston) gets even less page time and characterization than the one in LoQ (Beckenham or so), Oliver remains flat compared to Ninian, and so on...."

I disagree that Black Sheep is thin on plot: we have the whole question of "Will Fanny be saved from Stacey, and if so, how?" to concern us. That's where I feel Lady of Quality compares unfavourably, because that has no such sub-plot.
In Black Sheep, however, we watch Stacey draw Fanny more and more into his trap, inveigling her into clandestine meetings that she is very unhappy about and finally extracting a promise to elope with him that plunges her into an agony of indecision as she realises the practical problems and the implications of such a thing. Her imaginary love for Stacey and equally imaginary willingness to 'dare all for his sake' conflict with her genuine love for her aunts and the awareness that has been inculcated into her all her life of the importance to a girl's reputation of observing social conventions. The arrival of Mrs Clapham (is that who you mean by 'Mrs Markham'?) and her dealings with Stacey are only the culmination of that plot.

Mr Dunston gets as much page space as he needs: he's only there to show us that Abby isn't a reject, a desperate spinster who would take any man who offered, but an independent woman who can afford to be choosy. That's the same role his counterpart in Lady of Quality holds, but at far greater and unnecessary length.

Oliver is a different character from Ninian, and doesn't show the same character development; but I don't think it's fair to say he's flat. We don't see so much of him, but he's quiet, mature and dependable, with a genuine concern for Fanny's welfare (he's not just dazzled by her beauty) and great tact and thoughtfulness in dealing with her. He certainly compares favourably with Lavinia in that respect!
Do we know how old he is? He's among the most mature of GH's 'brother figures' along perhaps with John in Reluctant Widow, Gideon in The Foundling and Tom in Sylvester and shares with the first two of those the possession of an actual job.

QNPoohBear wrote: "Selina is not like Maria ... Selina is older and more conventional than Abby. She doesn't have the education, intelligence or strength of character to be as unconventional as Abby. Maria bends over backwards to please SOMEONE, ANYONE and when Annis starts behaving in a way Maria considers immoral, Maria turns into a spy and sneak. ..."

The main differences that I see between them are (1) that Selina is a nicer person than Maria and (2) that Selina and Abby are sisters and genuinely love each other, while Maria and Annis are only cousins and forced on each other by Maria's financial circumstances and Annis's need (according to social convention) for respectable female companionship.

I don't think Selina could marry the doctor: surely he is too far below her socially? He works for a living! I don't think fobbing her off onto Miss Butterbank will make up for the loss of Abby and Fanny either - Miles is just saying that to ease Abby's conscience. I think she'll be happy for Abby (once she becomes accustomed and sees how happy Abby is) and she'll get used to doing without her, but she'll always miss her. Maybe Mr Dunston, or if he's too young, one of the other male Bath residents, will eventually console her.

Very good analysis Jenny.

I don't think Oliver's age is mentioned but I assumed he was around 20. & I like the way that GH has left Fanny & Oliver's future open ended. Fanny is only 17, & I know it is a different time, but she needs to mature - & Oliver (a character I really like) may remain too quiet & serious for her.

I'm not going to take part in the read this time as I only read it last month. I was sick and went on a run of Heyer comfort reads:) Miles is one of my favourite Heyer characters and I really like Abbey too. I love this book. I'll be checking out the comments. It's very busy already.

Susan in NC wrote: "Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "Ok, I’m only about halfway through my reread, but I was immediately struck anew, when listening to the hilarious first meeting between Miles and Abby..."

Thank you Susan. xx

Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "Ok, I’m only about halfway through my reread, but I was immediately struck anew, when listening to the hilarious first meeting be..."

🤗

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "I don't think Oliver's age is mentioned but I assumed he was around 20. "

I was just reading the part where Oliver is introduced, and it says he's 22 (but seems older).

Margaret wrote: "Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "I don't think Oliver's age is mentioned but I assumed he was around 20. "

I was just reading the part where Oliver is introduced, and it says he's 22 (but seems older)."

Thank you.

22 & 17 is quite a difference (which will feel less as Fanny gets older.)

I am hoping that Abby's relationship / marriage will empower Selina to be more independent and to think more about her own happiness. Perhaps she can have a change of heart, and reassess what she has always believed to be important in life, re-evaluate her own happiness.

I don't want to write her off as a character unable to grow and change, because she is so kind and caring, and has shown that she is loyal and brave to stand by Abby in the face of being cut off from her family. Hopefully she will become stronger being more on her own, although I think Abby will still remain very close with her and support her emotionally.

Critterbee❇ wrote: "I am hoping that Abby's relationship / marriage will empower Selina to be more independent and to think more about her own happiness. Perhaps she can have a change of heart, and reassess what she h..."

I would hope so too. I find it difficult to forgive Selena for her utter selfishness in respect of Abby. She was prepared for Abby to sacrifice her own prospects of a happy marriage and posssible family so that Selena wouldn’t be ‘left alone’. Her initial reaction was understandable and forgivable. However after Abby rejected Miles proposal, Selena’s reaction was so utterly selfish, I am afraid I lost sympathy for her.

However, what is so brilliant about this thread of the story is how GH illustrates the mighty power of familial loyalty on women at that time. The terrible blackmail of sisterly tears! Poor Abby almost succumbed to it had Miles not ‘abducted’ her. I totally love his solution.

Critterbee wrote

I don't want to write her off as a character unable to grow and change, because she is so kind and caring, and has shown that she is loyal and brave to stand by Abby in the face of being cut off from her family.

that's a good point!

Jackie wrote: "Critterbee wrote

I don't want to write her off as a character unable to grow and change, because she is so kind and caring, and has shown that she is loyal and brave to stand by Abby in the face o..."

Yes, I agree - I was so swoony over Miles, I had forgotten Selena’s finer points!

Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Critterbee❇ wrote: "I am hoping that Abby's relationship / marriage will empower Selina to be more independent and to think more about her own happiness. Perhaps she can have a change of heart, and..."

I loved it too, he didn’t come across as a caveman dragging her off - just a pragmatic man of business with a wide understanding of human nature who had assessed the situation, saw the emotional blackmail his beloved was facing, and solved the problem! Reminded me very much of my own dear husband at that point…

Yes, that's what I love about it: true, he abducted her but he did allow her to make the final choice: "Tell me that that is what, in your heart, you want me to do {for him to take her back}, and I will!"

bluerose wrote: "Yes, that's what I love about it: true, he abducted her but he did allow her to make the final choice: "Tell me that that is what, in your heart, you want me to do {for him to take her back}, and I..."

Exactly!

My first reread of this and I’m appreciating Miles and his humour a lot more this time. (I’m not sure what I’d just read previously last time, perhaps it coloured my perception of him a bit!)

It was tempting to think that his rough edges - Abby perceives him as a ramshackle person - might be the product of spending twenty years away from the restrictions governing society’s behaviour. Not that these didn’t exist in some form in India, but his experiences there would have given him quite a different world view.

Perhaps society’s rules wouldn’t have affected him greatly, he’d already shown an unwillingness to conform by being prepared to elope with Celia. But I wonder if that was immaturity as much as anything. Might he have become more the typical gentleman had he matured in England?

Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Critterbee❇ wrote: "I am hoping that Abby's relationship / marriage will empower Selina to be more independent and to think more about her own happiness. Perhaps she can have a change of heart, and..."

I agree totally Susan. I don't have much patience with this type of person and I found it hard to forgive her for making Abbey miserable.

Julie wrote: "
It was tempting to think that his rough edges - Abby perceives him as a ramshackle person - might be the product of spending twenty years away from the restrictions governing society’s behaviour. "

Very probably! & being successful would mean that his idiosyncrasies would be tolerated by the other British abroad (although I don't think he would care if they weren't.

It's one of the things I love about Miles. He couldn't care less what anyone thinks of him. He's so confident in his own skin. I can only dream of having confidence like that!

Susan in Perthshire wrote: "I find it difficult to forgive Selena for her utter selfishness in respect of Abby. She was prepared for Abby to sacrifice her own prospects of a happy marriage and possible family so that Selena wouldn’t be ‘left alone’..."

Yes, I find that hard to take in as well. I think it can partly (but only partly) be excused by her belief that in making such an unsuitable marriage Abby wouldn't be happy; but it sits very awkwardly with her simultaneous championing of Abby against James, resolving to stand by her if James should disown her. But Selina doesn't come across as terribly bright or self-aware and I don't think she's considered the ethical aspects of her behaviour.

Selena has made a brave leap forward in going against her brother's wishes, i think she can continue to change and become happier. Such a radical move on her part surely will allow more development toward being independent ( I hope)

Teresa wrote: "It's one of the things I love about Miles. He couldn't care less what anyone thinks of him. He's so confident in his own skin. I can only dream of having confidence like that!"

Yes! It’s a very attractive quality, isn’t it?

Jenny wrote: "Susan in Perthshire wrote: "I find it difficult to forgive Selena for her utter selfishness in respect of Abby. She was prepared for Abby to sacrifice her own prospects of a happy marriage and poss..."

I think you’re absolutely right - she’s been browbeaten and lectured her whole life on propriety, the importance of family above all, and the value of reputation, by family members who were much more overpowering personalities. Also, as you say and Heyer definitely implies, not terribly bright or self-aware.

Critterbee❇ wrote: "Selena has made a brave leap forward in going against her brother's wishes, i think she can continue to change and become happier. Such a radical move on her part surely will allow more development..."

I certainly hope so, for her own sake - it really reminds us of the dependence of being a spinster in the upper classes. Companion or unpaid servant (sometimes basically the same thing) were the only respectable roles open to such women.

Susan in NC wrote: " it really reminds us of the dependence of being a spinster in the upper classes. Companion or unpaid servant (sometimes basically the same thing) were the only respectable roles open to such women."

Selena's case is different: she has money; at least nominally, she has been the mistress of the house after their mother's death. Nothing prevents her from going on living independently in Bath. Maybe she will take in a companion, e.g. a relative - hopefully not of Maria Farrow (LoQ) style ;-) - so as not to live alone. She has friends, entertainment, and gives parties - so life does not bleak for her.

I've not got the book handy (waiting on the library!} I can't remember if Miss Butterbank lived on her own, or if she circled from one relative's house to another. Miles assures Abby that Miss B will be a great companion for Selena--but did he mean Miss B would visit daily? or was he suggesting that Miss B would move in?

Replying to Barb:

"She will in all probability find a substitute for you in Miss Butterbank, he replied calmly. "What's more, they will deal extremely together. Fanny, I daresay, will go to your sister in London."

I took this to mean that Fanny will be moving out and Miss Butterbank will be moving in.

bluerose wrote: "Replying to Barb:

"She will in all probability find a substitute for you in Miss Butterbank, he replied calmly. "What's more, they will deal extremely together. Fanny, I daresay, will go to your s..."

Thanks for finding the quote! And that was my impression, as well. But GH, of course, never gives us an epilogue to firm up all our conclusions!

sabagrey wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: " it really reminds us of the dependence of being a spinster in the upper classes. Companion or unpaid servant (sometimes basically the same thing) were the only respectable role..."

Good point, I’d forgotten she at least has money.

Barb in Maryland wrote: "bluerose wrote: "Replying to Barb:

"She will in all probability find a substitute for you in Miss Butterbank, he replied calmly. "What's more, they will deal extremely together. Fanny, I daresay, ..."

Exactly! I always figured Miss Butterbath (I think that’s what Miles mistakenly calls her at first, made me chuckle along with Abby!) would move in, but we can’t really know. But we do know that Fanny is soon to have her season, so she will definitely be moving on.

bluerose wrote: "I took this to mean that Fanny will be moving out and Miss Butterbank will be moving in. .."

an interesting idea - I always thought that Mrs. Butterbank is another resident of Bath and crony of Selena, so that the two of them will visit daily, but not that she would move in. But well, we can read it as we wish ...

Susan in NC wrote: "Exactly! I always figured Miss Butterbath."

Buttertooth. :)