Weird Westerns discussion

Okay, so, after some hiccups and a discussion on group read book formats, we're gonna do something different now. Starting this month, we're gonna do two months at a time, with one or two books, depending on the formats available for the highest voted book (or in the case of a tie).

This month, the winners of the poll were West of Dead: A Nathaniel Caine Adventure, from our very own Eric Bahle and Dead in the West from Joe Lansdale. And I'm sorry about the voting getting messed up for March.

Now, just a reminder, please use the spoiler tags when discussing the books. You can find all usable HTML tags by click "(some html is ok)" above the comment box. And mark initial posts with the book(s) you read, so others can keep track and check the spoilers if they like.

If there's any questions or suggestions about group reads or posts, send me a message and I'll be happy to help. Happy reading, everyone!

As a non-spoiler comment, I'll say Ive already read West of Dead and REALLY liked it. I'm halfway through Dead in the West and lovin' it too. These are two good picks!

Ashe wrote: And I'm sorry about the voting getting messed up for March.

I don't think apologies are necessary. These hiccups are bound to happen getting something like this going. I for one am enjoying the group reads and I think they'll only get better as the momentum builds. I think other members will echo me when I say all the mod work, here and elsewhere in WW group, is much appreciated.

I try, Eric. I appreciate the appreciation haha.

Quentin wrote: "As a non-spoiler comment, I'll say Ive already read West of Dead and REALLY liked it. I'm halfway through Dead in the West and lovin' it too. These are two good picks!"

Thanks, man! I'm thrilled you liked it. I'm also thrilled to be on the same bill as Joe Lansdale. I read Dead in the West a while ago, but I'm gonna re-read it for the discussion.

I started West of Dead a little early. Posted a review. It was fun aand I look forward to the next book.

That said, I'm sick of zombies for a while haha.

I'm actually reading all 4 of the choices this time (I've already read 3, and I'm on the fourth.) I just happened to have them all, and I'd been meaning to read Eric's and Justin's anyway. But yeah, Im on a bit of zombie overload o.o

Joe R. Lansdale...Champion Mojo Storyteller. Well, I'm not going to argue that point. Whatever else you feel when you're done reading Joe, you know you got a story, dammit!

Dead in the West isn't his best, and he clearly knows that himself. But it's also clearly one he likes anyway. Even if he didn't say that right out in the introduction, the love of lurid Pulp and B-Westerns comes through plain. I have always been a proud lover of Pulp and B-movies, so this was easy for me to like.

(view spoiler)[On the surface it's fairly standard zombie stuff. It's a buildup structure, foreshadowing and ratcheting tension until the final stand. Of course, the only way to put down a Z is to destroy the brain. But there are a few tweaks worth talking about.

The source of the zombie hoard is rather original. An Indian curse turns the townsfolk into zombies, and thus the instruments of revenge. The Indian in question has good cause for that vengeance, being lynched after his wife's rape and torture and all, so it's hard to feel sorry for those people. This is actually good for the story. We understand why the Indian did it, but the whole town suffers, even innocents who had nothing to do with the lynching. Those left now have to kill people they knew in life if they want to survive.

The best stuff for me is just the character of Reverend Mercer himself. Classic gunslinger stuff here. Tall, lean, and hard-eyed. Plays the part of even tempered preacher, but always simmering with rage that could boil over at any moment. A man who wants to be good (or thinks he does), but tortured by his past and self-loathing. And now he might have a second chance. A chance to be a good man, to spread the Good Word, to love a good woman. Will it work out for him this time? Yeah, not so much.

On a technical note, I like that Mercer carries and old Navy Colt. The Peacemaker is a fine weapon, and was very popular in its day. But it's prolific use in Hollywood over the decades has made it kind of generic for me. When I take my Westerns Weird, I want a little more flair. A .36 with a cartridge conversion worn through a sash will do. As mentioned in the story, that's how Wild Bill wore his pistols.

Anyway, this is the second time I read it, and it enjoyed it this time around. That said, I'm not sure it's one a person will read over and over again. It's a tough call on recommendation, too. If you're already a fan of Weird Westerns or Lansdale, that's an easy yes. As an intro for someone who's never read WW? Well, not sure it would hook them, but they could do worse for sure. Hell, recommend all the way. (hide spoiler)]

3 stars out of 5: It was a solid four stars up to the last 10 pages, which is the big showdown/gun battle/zombie jamboree, so that's a problem. Also, we're going to have to talk about the dog and the Indian.

(view spoiler)[First time reading Joe Lansdale, and overall, I'm hella impressed and would seek out and read more of his work.

I liked the Reverend's snark and the idea of having your gunslinging hero be a fallen preacher with an abnormal fear of spiders.

I also liked Abby ("Are you men going to shoot or talk those sticks to death?") and the sheriff, Matt, whose death was unexpected but probably my favorite part of the ending, in a Good Men Who See Evil and Stand By and Do Nothing Get Their Faces Ripped Off kind of way. Also it was genuinely creepifying the way the jaw-unhinging was written. Good stuff.

The zombies were definitely original and fun, but I would've liked them to be more consistently spiderlike, otherwise what was the point of setting them up as spiders at the beginning of the book, except to do some foreshadowing with the Reverend?

I also didn't see the point of killing the stray dog. I mean, usually dogs die in books to elicit sympathy for whoever cares about them, which AUTHORS DON'T DO THIS IT'S TERRIBLE AND CLICHE AND MAKES ME TOSS BOOKS ACROSS THE ROOM, but no one cared about that dog so... what were we supposed to take away from the attack?

*shrugs*

So, I definitely enjoyed this book up through when the zombie coach passengers make it back to their homesteads. After that, things kind of spiraled out of control. There was just so much pulp/cartoon violence that it started to blend together and became repetitive and uninteresting. Like how after the first two punches in a saloon brawl, when it really kicks off, it just becomes a blur? It felt like that.

For instance, the sheriff's death was gruesome but unique, and it's written in a way that Lansdale slows everything else down to focus on this one particular death and make you appreciate the creepifyingness, and the actual ripping sound a human face makes when detached from a skull, and how slooshy it all must be, then right after that the book's a mess of running and stabbing and shooting and burning.

Also, I get where Lansdale was going with the Indian having a relatable motive for revenge and even having the Reverend take the time to feel compassion for the violence and the loss he'd suffered, but in the end, it still wound up being a book that demonizes Indians. So I didn't love that. I did, however, respect that it was a different way of tackling the Magical Native American trope. (hide spoiler)]

Overall, solid work. Will read more Lansdale, just probably not this one again.

I've picked up 4 or 5 of joe landsdale books, but I've only finished 1. Each time I promise myself that I won't pick up another one again, but somehow I do when I find a copy for a dollar at a used book sale. Most of these books were well written. he's got talent. and the stories are generally interesting. my praise for joe stops here.

I think he also includes so much crap that I don't want to read about. seariously, I'd rather read Martha Stewart's advice on matching kitchen towels than read about someone screwing a monkey to death then masturbating on the corpse. I find many things in life entertaining - but not this. If anything, I believe Joe is single handedly holding the genera back. more, he's an embarrassment for all of us who aspire to genuinely write a quality story.

This may sound preach-y but what the hell. It's my opinion.

I wouldn't say he's holding the genre back, especially considering most of his weird west work is older at this point. Honestly, I feel like the prevalence of zombies as the focus in weird westerns is what's hurting us. More than that though, it's not really a known area for a lot of folks. Thankfully, we got a pretty good group of folks writing some diverse ideas. We just gotta get them out for people to read them.

Well said, Ashe. And I agree - the zombies have to go if the genera is to be taken seriously. I don't mind to offend anyone who is writing or has written a weird zombie western. I like reading them. I've written one. But I have to agree that we (as weird western writers) need to raise the bar if we are to be taken seriously.

I know I've done noting but complain on this thread. That's really unlike me, but here is another thought I'm rather passionate about. I'll keep my comments more upbeat after this one : )

Anyway, ... look at the genera name, "Weird Westerns". Who is going to take us seariously with a genera name like that? I've never mentioned weird westerns to my friends or family. I've always called is Western Fantasy. ....Unfortunately, that confuses people. they think "western culture".

...So .. off the cuff. Hence forth I'll refer to this genera, to my friends and family, as "Gunslinger Fantasy".

How bad-ass is that! ...better than "Weird Western".

...just sayin'

I definitely wouldn't say zombies gotta go, just that they need to stop being the Plot and be used more sparingly. I think the genre gets taken seriously, it's just not so well known is all.

Far as genre names go, Fantasy Western gets thrown around a little more. Gunpowder Fantasy works too. Thing about "Weird Western" is it ties back to the comic Weird Western Tales. It can also tell a lot in those two words, given that using "Western" by itself is tied so heavily to the American West for most folks. Multiple labels can work well too. For my book, I'll be making the official genre Dark Fantasy but I promote it as a Weird Western. I've also thought of the term "Gun & Sorcery."

I wouldn't say any of them are better than the other, as ultimately, we could each come up with our own terms if we wanted.

Oooh, "Gun & Sorcery". I like that one. May I borrow it or do you have exclusive rights?

It's very exclusive. Fifty thousand dollars and you can use it. ;)

Nah, go for it. I was just thinkin about sword & sorcery's effect on my book and then that popped into my head. Makes a lot of sense when you've got a sort of gunslinger Conan type hero, don't it?

Not only is there nothing wrong with the term Weird Western, I'm quite proud of it. Of course, just like 'Fantasy', it's pretty broad. You start talking to seriously about genre, and you've taken the first step into a tar pit. In the intro to Dead in the West Lansdale cites comics as an inspiration, and specifically points out there disregard for genre as something to be admired.

I concede defeat. gun & sorcery is an awesome lable. As you said, it this in well with the sword & sorcery. .... For marketing purposes, I'll really can't justify pitching my series, Cailean the cross eyed cowboy, as anything but humerious fantasy western. However, my larger series, the legebd of levi west, I'll pitch as an epic, tragic, coming of age, dark, gunslinger fantasy (in a frontier setting).

I can't win .. ha ha. ..

I'll have to post a little something on the other thread.

darn predictive texting.

Also, I think SA gets the rights to "gunslinger fantasy" haha. It's been on his twitter for a while.

True, BUT it is something we can point to as an example and say "Look! This is exactly what we do! This is our category of fiction. See this author who has done it for years? That's us, too."

I'm voting that for the new Amazon listing category.

Philip wrote: "True, BUT it is something we can point to as an example and say "Look! This is exactly what we do! This is our category of fiction. See this author who has done it for years? That's us, too."

I'm ..."

Which one are you voting for Philip?

Quentin wrote: "Philip wrote: "True, BUT it is something we can point to as an example and say "Look! This is exactly what we do! This is our category of fiction. See this author who has done it for years? That's ..."

The category of "gunslinger fantasy". That just has to exist.

I didn't realise SA Hunt had used that already. dang. ....I felt clever for about 6 hrs.
In respects to genera lables, I like the use of "gunslinger" better than "western". historically, the lable pertained specifically to a certain few years (1820-1890?) in the western usa. That's fine, but neither my insiration nor my writing are set in a place akin to the western usa. I grew up in the appalachian mountains, on a farm in West Virginia. Those memories are my inspiration. ... so using the term "Western"doesn't feel entirely right. .... gunslinger, on the other hand, is slappin awsome.

Yes, I know I ramble. I write these posts in the middle of the night when my 2 y/o wakes and I try to get her back to sleep. ... At this hr, my brain is oatmeal with the occasional walnut.

OK so I read both of the this months picks and here's my take.

(view spoiler)[ West of Dead to me was really good and I enjoyed it. As I said in my review, my main complaint was I thought Nathaniel Caine was almost pushed into a supporting role due to the other characters, but that didn't really hurt the story so I'm probably being too picky. I thought it was an original way to present zombies which have been done to death.

Now, with Dead in the West, keep in mind this was written in 1986 before the recent zombie craze. So while people who read it now have a tendency to say "oh zombies again?" when it came out zombies werent everywhere. I mean you had Dawn of the Dead, Day of the Dead, the zombie movies and such, but nothing like the explosion we've had in the last decade or so. Lansdale is one of my favorite Weird Western authors, even if sometimes he does put things in that could probably be left out, such as what Christopher mentioned about the monkey. I liked Dead in the West's characters, especially since most of them were flawed. Lansdale even managed to work an Indian Curse in and give us a new twist on the zombie curse. Even he admitted DITW wasn't meant to be literature, it was the written equivalent of a B Movie, which we usually call Pulp Fiction. That's what I myself write, and I think people sometime miss the point. Pulp fiction is supposed to be a little rough around the edges. Not shoddy, but not exactly well defined either. (hide spoiler)]

I'll probably add more once others start discussing the books more in depth. Looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts!

Quentin wrote: "Pulp fiction is supposed to be a little rough around the edges. Not shoddy, but not exactly well defined either. "

I'm intrigued by this comment. Are there places or things in particular in DITW that particularly struck you as rough around the edges? I mean, I definitely agree that DITW is a B-movie in book form, I'd just like to explore how "rough around the edges" translates to this particular book and weird westerns more generally.

I probably could have worded that better in hindsight. I just meant it's not high brow literature. In general it's more something you read for fun rather than something that will lead to deep introspection.

Quentin wrote: "In general it's more something you read for fun rather than something that will lead to deep intro..."

It's a fine wording. I'm just trying to separate, the pulpy aspects of the book from, say, what I consider the, not shoddy exactly, but not exactly awesome parts of the book. For instance, the zombies and their genesis (and most of their squishy, smoky, oozing demises) are pretty squarely pulp, for me. But the thing with the stray dog and the rape and murder of the Indian's wife feel less like pulp and more like not-thought-out-super-well. Am I making sense at all?

Makes sense to me.

Yeah I think I know where you're coming from too.