Fantasy Buddy Reads discussion

This is a Buddy Read for Chimes at Midnight by Seanan McGuire starting July 5, 2023.


Happy Reading!

Shorts after Chimes at Midnight

--Never Shines the Sun --Available in print only editions of Chimes at Midnight
--Forbid the Sea--Available from https://seananmcguire.com/tobyshorts.php

Started Chimes at Midnight...

Getting to the good stuff, FINALLY...

This is the Goblin Fruit book... and the Queen of the Mists book... (view spoiler)[and the beginning of Marcia being a BIT suspicious, I think?... unless I'm forgetting something that happened previously... but here she acts weird on a number of occasions, relating to encountering Arden and maybe something else I'm forgetting... (hide spoiler)]

I'll be a bit late here. I think I'll delay until next week at least. Can't wait for the reread though!

Tonari no Emily wrote: "I'll be a bit late here. I think I'll delay until next week at least. Can't wait for the reread though!"

I need you hear for the spoiler talk :D

I kinda binged the book whenever I posted the first time, then didn't say much... this is definitely a bit deal book... one of the first times we see clues pay off... and chock full of future clues, too...

And this is when (view spoiler)[Marcia (hide spoiler)] starts to get a smidge suspicious...

Lol sorry I've been a bit MIA with the rereads lately (well almost everything) Hoping to get back in a groove this month! I need some October Daye speculation :D

Oooh, exciting! This is next on my eyeball reads list... but then, my current eyeball read is the thousand-page wonder Memory of Light, so.... it'll be a couple days.

Timelord Iain wrote: "Started Chimes at Midnight...

Getting to the good stuff, FINALLY...

This is the Goblin Fruit book... and the Queen of the Mists book... [spoilers removed]"

Oh yeah, (view spoiler)[ she was acting pretty fishy.. She seems to know way too much! Later I'll visit my print copy since I bought it for the short at the end to bring up the specifics... (hide spoiler)]

Just started! Also running late, but I am catching up:))

Up to Ch. 5... That bitch Queen!!! (view spoiler)[ I can't believe she is justifying her dealing in The Goblin Fruit, which is killing the Changelings!!! Bitch!

It was nice seeing the haunts and the Sea Witch! And boy, Toby and The Cat have been dating for 3 months now. Wow!

Dean is adorable! (hide spoiler)]

Up to Ch. 6... (view spoiler)[ It's a good thing Toby has friends, or she would be SOL... I loved when her fetch said "Do you remember when the biggest problem we had was who made the laundry pink? Me neither... ":)))

So, the Queen of the Mists isn't even the rightful ruler! And for a hundred years no one even questioned it? WTH?? I guess, this week we are taking down the Queen:))) (hide spoiler)]

Up to Ch. 11...(view spoiler)[ They found the princess and her sleeping brother very fast, I wasn't expecting that... I can understand how lonesome and scared she must have been feeling after they Elfshot her sibling and no one stood up for them... Faery isn't fair for real!

I liked the librarian:) And I love it how fast they created a coalition to overthrow the current queen. But why is Marsha acting kind of weird??? (hide spoiler)]

Choko wrote: "Up to Ch. 11..."

(view spoiler)[ That's what Iain and I were thinking at this point too about Marsha...

I also liked how Toby was like "well yaknow what this means, its time to take down the queen" (hide spoiler)]

I am totally getting weird vibes from Marsha... This is not how she usually acts, and that bugs me, because I really love her character...

Loved the casual way Toby had deciding to start an insurrection:))) And the way The Sea Witch showed her evil side:)!

This is the beginning/middle of Toby’s reputation as a Kingmaker/breaker… Firstborn/royalty… fuck around and find out :D

Ch. 11... Fuck!! I hate that queen!!! (view spoiler)[ She just had someone smash a pie full of Goblin Fruit and it is deadly to changelings!!! (hide spoiler)]

This was so good!!! (view spoiler)[ Toby sure knows how to put herself in mortal danger! Her and Tibolt are very young in love:) It's amazing how many times either one of them is almost dead...

The Sea Witch is still the best, but I really liked the dog-fae too:))) And May is always awesome!

It seems Arden will make a better queen, which wouldn't be hard, since the deposed one was a completely crazy bitch. I wonder, now that Toby took her siren blood away, if it would make her a bit more sane...

Loved it, although I thought the takeover was a bit easy, but I guess we will take it. The Dutches of the deep and her family are a great addition to the cast! She was very cool in this book:))) (hide spoiler)]

I've been trying to work my way through the short stories before opening this book, but the epub I compiled from the Patreon shorts and cannibalizing the epubs of other anthologies is almost 2000 pages!! Not that I need to get up to all of them, but just the Tybalt Shorts alone are around 600 pages!!!

Still, it's really interesting getting his back story, and others--I also caught up on the other earlier shorts too. I found a 10th anniversary copy of Rosemary & Rue, but haven't read "Strangers in Court" yet. Most stories don't have Goodreads pages, grrr...

"Toby and the Shoes"--a cute little short, but it felt like it just... ended. More of a long joke than a story.

"Through this House"--should have read after Late Eclipses, or before One Salt Sea--summary & thoughts: (view spoiler)[Summary: May & Toby, with the help of Danny & Quentin go to clean up Goldengreen--discover that Evening wasn't as good a person as Toby thought she was (like enslaving pixies to use as lights) and end up making a pact with the Pixies and Bogies to take rule of the knowe. In the process, Toby drips some of her blood in the knowe and sees its history--it was one of the first knowes opened, and was originally opened by Amandine and a red-haired woman (I think Daoine Sidhe, I don't remember). Then it passed to another Daoine Sidhe, before coming to Evening, and began declining...

Of course, that started me wondering about who the red-haired Sidhe was, and what else Toby could be wrong about Evening with--if she wasn't at all the person she thought she was. (hide spoiler)]

In Sea-Salt Tears takes place from 1970-2000 ish, but gives background to the end of One Salt Sea, and the deal surrounding the Selkies, the Roane, and the Luideag. I really liked this one--it really gave a good flavor to the whole pact, and the longing the Selkies feel, straddling the worlds. And the Luideag's loneliness, and sorrow.

No Sooner Met--was just a really cute "first date" between Tybalt & Toby, right after Ashes of Honor. It was also from Tybalt's perspective, so I really appreciated the little introduction to his voice before jumping in to the shorts. (view spoiler)[I also really appreciated the discussion of the difference in their ages and experience, since humongous age-gaps (like, 200 y/o vampires falling for for dumbass teenagers) has long been a big problem for me, for the logic as well as the ick factor. I don't mind it with Toby as much, since she's like, 70, right? Well seasoned and experienced, well developed personality and once you hit that high a couple hundred years isn't much, I suppose. It's not cradle robbing any more. But I still appreciated it. And it was pretty funny seeing the contrast in Tybalt's more archaic POV floundering with modern courtship while Toby just floundered with courtship, period. (hide spoiler)]

Tybalt Shorts:
Rat-Catcher
Forbid the Sea--especially good after One Salt Sea & In Salt-Sea Tears
Stage of Fools
The Voice of Lions
The Act of Hares
Instruments of Darkness
With Honest Trifles
This is as far as I've made it so far, and I'm really enjoying them. I hope McGuire will compile these into a book at some point, maybe when she's wrapped everything up. And I still have these to go: (parenthesis are publication dates)
In Deepest Consequence (Oct. 2017)
Jealous in Honor (June 2018)
Quick in Quarrel (Aug. 2018)
Of Strange Oaths (Mar. 2019)
Dreams and Sighs (Aug. 2019)
Wishes and Tears (June 2020)
Poor Fancy's Followers (Oct. 2020)
Our Trial Patience (Dec. 2020)
Earth for Charity (Apr. 2021)
Mean and Mighty (Sept. 2021)
Distinction of Place (June 2023)
Notes of Sorrow (July 2023)
^^ I grabbed the last one right before loading this onto my ereader.

It's so much fun seeing life through Tybalt's eyes--and those of a young, and somewhat less jaded Tybalt. There's not a lot of history, which could be a bummer, but isn't really necessary. (view spoiler)[And I think the identity of the red-haired woman who was with Amandine to open Goldengreen could easily be September Torquill, who I just learned is Simon & Sylvester's sister... and it also revealed that Amandine was somewhat fostered with them--and that all three were courting Amandine's love, and September thinks Simon would win. So that kills the Amandine as Sylvester's mother theory--but the "uncle-in-law" theory--if Amandine married Simon--is pretty strong.

Not to mention... we've got how many months now?
January--Sylvester's niece, I'm guessing that makes her September's daughter... probably was stated but I forgot.
February--none yet
March--none yet
April--January's adopted daughter
May--Toby's "sister"
June--none yet
July--none yet
August--none yet
September--Sylvester's sister
October--duh.
November--none yet
December--none yet

BUT EVERY ONE OF THEM SO FAR IS A MEMBER OF THE TORQUILL FAMILY. And if we count Amandine as foster/maybe wife of Simon, that means October wasn't a "oh, you were born this month" name--but a FAMILY name.

And the origin of the Triple S family--Gideon? Torquill, seems to be a mystery.... no mention of his wife yet...

It also described the three siblings as the Hero, the Dilettante, and the Diplomat, plus the Mystery, Amandine. If Amandine was fostered with them, that makes her potentially VERY young, maybe even youngEST of the firstborn... especially since her mother wasn't one of the other Three. That might have some significance. Now trying to decide if Simon was Dilettante or Diplomat... though his actions don't sound very diplomatic. Did he go off the rocker because his wife decided to leave him to play fairie bride?

ANYway, none of this has to do with Tybalt! I'm really enjoying his story, from taking the throne to an empty kingdom, his sister coming back, and the twist with his niece. I really hope she doesn't die, and that she & Colleen are happily chilling in Londinium still, havning taking over the court when T chose to leave for America. It's a lot of fun watching him play doting uncle, and the twists with the racism among the courts, and the hints that the hope chests aren't as flawless an answer... and that they might be declining, or disappearing... is good background for guessing. (hide spoiler)]

I'm enjoying the shorts so much... I was thinking of stopping so I could start this book in less of a last-minute, but I think I'm going to end up pushing through...

Thank you for all the info on the shorts, because I have not been reading them... I appreciate all outside information all of you bring in!:)))

Nirkatze wrote: "I've been trying to work my way through the short stories before opening this book, but the epub I compiled from the Patreon shorts and cannibalizing the epubs of other anthologies is almost 2000 p..."


I was just kind of gonna slowly go through them as I read the main series. Can't wait to get to them though :)
I wish they all had goodreads pages!

I'm behind on my vague short story plans... just kept overbooking more Buddy Reads...

Just read "Never Shines the Sun" (From the end of Chimes at Midnight) (view spoiler)[I thought we had already learned Amandine was the youngest of the three, but if we hadn't already this story definitely spells it out!

This really short story seemed pretty important actually, hints at alot of things... The Dochas Sidhe are needed for something big and Amandine had been neglecting that... It also showed Amandine does care about Toby in a totally twisted way, but she kind of completely gave up after Luideag took Toby from her...
Hints of Eira's plots and those trying to stop whatever she's doing (hide spoiler)]

Revisiting the whole (view spoiler)[ Marcia (hide spoiler)] thing from earlier... (view spoiler)[ So she dropped a plate of sandwiches when Toby asked to see Dean's parents because they knew King Gilad... Why would that startle her so much to do that? She also just seemed like she knew more than she should here..

THen when Arden and Toby teleported back to Goldengreen Marcia looked at Arden like she knew her, her face going all pale... And Idk why Toby didn't comment more on that? It seems a lot of the strange things around Marcia are just kind of brushed off. She also kept "disappearing" or just leaving the room and Toby didn't notice... Which could be she just wasn't paying attention, but it was mentioned twice so maybe that's important too.. But Idk Marcia is quarterblood so I don't think many people pay too close attention to what she's doing, even Toby. But Toby found her again "viciously sweeping the pristine floor".. So she seems agitated. That could be just because her home has been unexpectedly "invaded" by long lost Queen in the Mists and the Undersea... But to me it seems like she knows more than she's letting on....

Later when Toby crossed a threshold into the Knowe she commented she'd seen Marcia do that all the time without making a fuss. She reasoned that to her either being less faye than Marcia currently or the Goblin fruit's doing... But is it?? lol

I don't think any of these things leads to anything yet, but they did stick out to me... Marcia knows more than what she's letting on... (hide spoiler)]

Basically why I'm suspicious, in a nutshell, since my 2nd or 3rd readthrough...

I found her behavior highly suspect, and I am just now getting into it... But I kind of expected SM to let us know why, which she didn't... I want to know why!

Unfortunately we still dont know much! lol McGuire plays the long game!

I finished the shorts! The current arc with the newest chapter out early this month ends on quite a cliffhanger!! I hope her next Patreon short continues and wraps up the arc before she jumps to something else... I've really been enjoying the faster pace with the shorts--even though they often go 2-4 shorts to an arc, there's always some major conflict that is resolved before the end, and that's pretty satisfying for 30 pages each.

Quick summary the latter Tybalt shorts:
With Honest Trifles / In Deepest Consequence: (view spoiler)[Tybalt's niece Cailin, daughter of his sister Colleen and a Daoine Sidhe prince (who was murdered by his sister for the crime of loving a "beast") has some magic troubles--a hope chest (supposedly) changed her blood all the way Cait Sidhe, but her magic is more Daoine Sidhe--so Tybalt goes to France to find his old friend (and crush) September to entreat her to tutor Cailin. She agrees, she and her husband Malcom come back to the Torquill estate in Londinium.

Oh, and at some point in Tybalt's flashbacks to his childhood with September & the Torquill kids, it's revealed that the elder Torquills, Septimus & Glynis, had a human "servant" who was actually a full on lover to both of them--and the REAL mother to Simon and Sylvester. I'm guessing that September is Glynis's daughter though, since she's eldest... but that they turned to a human to have more children. And used the hope chest to make them fully fae. It's one of those well-kept secrets that it kind of seems like everyone knows--and the hope chest they used is probably the ones that ended up in the hands of the Court at Londinium. There' a story there. (hide spoiler)]

Thoughts: (view spoiler)[I was a little taken by surprise by Tybalt's confession of kitten love towards September. I can see how these chapters are ways for McGuire to work out ideas and backstory--because it often seems that one piece of information will directly contradict a previous chapter, or something entirely new added like fact, while going from one to another. Like she's working out which rules and past she wants... and these are Patreon shorts, so she doesn't need to go back and edit them when they aren't for publication yet. (hide spoiler)]

Jealous in Honor / Quick in Quarrel / Of Strange Oaths: (view spoiler)[Cailin's training is going well, but Cyne, princess of the Divided Courts, murderess of Cailin's father, and generally hated by and hating of Tybalt's whole family, is back in town. She and her mother dissolve September's marriage to Malcom (always in danger because she is Daoine Sidhe and he is Twylwth Teg, of Maeve's line, and Daoine Sidhe are purist bigots) and plot to send September away as Cyne's handmaiden. Tybalt stops the plot by producing a letter from the deceased High Queen to September's father promising September's hand to anyone of higher rank who asks for it, and now that September is "free"--Tybalt's asking. Tybalt returns home where Malcom is waiting, "gifts" her back to Malcom--and now that they have been married by a monarch, their marriage is safe. The Torquill's leave because it's not safe for them anymore in Londinium.

The Divided Courts monarchs strike back by starting a "purge of vermin" and hiring street children to kill any cat they see--but oh, not Cait Sidhe, they could never be caught by mere mortal children! Cailin's best friend and a Princess of Cats Chalcedony is caught and murdered. Tybalt goes to the Divided Courts and strikes a deal/demands an oath from the Queen who devised it (and also Cailin's grandmother)--she will raise no hand against the Cait Sidhe ever again if Tybalt leaves Londinium. Tybalt informs his sister Colleen, and they fight for the throne. Tybalt is left bleeding out in the Shadows and Colleen takes the throne, but he wakes on a boat to France, not dead! (hide spoiler)]

Thoughts: (view spoiler)[Even though this part of the story is pretty nicely wrapped up, for Tybalt, there's still a lot of loose ends! I really hope this comes back around... Are the Hope Chests faulty? Why does Cailin have CS blood but DS magic? What will happen now that Hermeline (Queen name for Colleen) no longer has an heir? Will the Daoine Sidhe Queen of the Divided Courts find a way around her oath? Is Tybalt's family still in London in present day?

I also find it really interesting how the racial tensions are more than just Changelings v. Fae--we really don't see a lot of it in the present day/from Toby's perspective. And it's really making me wonder what the Queen of the Mists is--like, in the shorts, September's marriage to a Twylwth Teg is a Big Deal--her children couldn't be in line for a Throne because they would be only half Daoine Sidhe--even though Twylwth Teg are also a ruling race, but Titania's line have serious discrimination against Maeve's folks. It seems pretty clear that the Queen of the Mists is half Daoine Sidhe and at least half something else, probably Maeve's--Merrow, or Twylwth Teg, or something--and a person like her WOULD NOT have been allowed to take a Throne a few hundred years ago, or in the Old Continent. (hide spoiler)]

Dreams and Sighs / Wishes and Tears / Poor Fancy's Followers / Our Trial Patience(view spoiler)[Tybalt is chilling in Queen Morane's (Divided/Daoine Sidhe) Court in Armorica, Brittany, France. But there's no Court of Cats there, and the Shadows are declining. Also, a neighboring King (Twlwyth Teg) sets his sights on Morane, even though she''s asexual and is determined to rule as a Virgin Queen. He uses a changeling to drug her and Tybalt foils his plan. King goes home, but the changeling is to be put to death--Tybalt asks for her to be given to him instead, thus getting himself responsibility for a changeling ward, Rozenne.

Tybalt goes to the neighboring Court of Cats to consult with the Queen about the situation in Armorica--why there no cats? He hears horrible tales of Queen Morane's parents having slaughtered all the beast races in their territory. He agrees to take the Throne in Armorica if the Queen of Cats can find him an heir to take it over ASAP. He returns to Armorica and claims the Throne... only to learn from Queen Morane that there is a curse on her land (her grandparents, a CS and a Bridge Troll "accidentally" killed a First and all his get in claiming the land, thinking them just "mindless beasts"), setting her people against shapechangers and vice versa. Tybalt swears to free the land from the curse.

He find the death site of the First, and meets his lover, the First of the Reynards (fox shapechangers). She agrees to lift the curse if he find the Bridge Troll--only one of the three murderers still alive. He finds him, with the help of a Roane child, and the Bridge Troll commits suicide. Tybalt returns with the BT's heart, the lover lifts the curse, and thinks about claiming Tybalt for fun but lets him go. Curse lifted, neighboring Cat Queen promises to find Tybalt an heir, Tybalt sets in to raise a proper court and his changeling ward. (hide spoiler)]

Thoughts : (view spoiler)[This sequence really showcased the quick wrap-up nature of these shorts--and their limits. I could usually guess where things were going to end, but the nature of these short stories meant that as we went into a deeper story, we got a lot of cliffhangery endings. I also noticed a lot of small discrepancies--nothing specific comes to mind right now... I also feel like there's a lot of background information in these that really fleshes out some theories and provides fodder for more... but again, can't put fingers on anything specific right now, except... (hide spoiler)]

Evening Winterose theory (view spoiler)[Okay, so Iain pretty much very strongly hinted that she's not dead. AND. In one of these shorts, the First of the Daoine Sidhe is called the Lady of Roses... and the Rose of Winter. And her name starts with an E. Erid or something like that. That's a pretty big WHOPPING hint. If Evening isn't the First of the Daoine Sidhe, I will be very disappointed. It would also explain why the iron-shot didn't kill her--but why Devin would think it had. From #3 with Blind Michael, we know that Firsts cannot be killed by Iron alone--it has to be a combination of Iron and Silver in the right circumstances. So she'd look & seem dead, leave a lot of blood... and then could whip up a stick person to be left in her place. Do the night-haunts take the memories in blood left behind too?

She'd be a half-sister to Amandine. Tybalt blames her for pretty much all the bad political crap that has happened since the Three left--and the parts left over he blames on Titania, who also sounds like a real piece of work. With the glimpse we got of the pixies dead in the lamps shows that she's not the person Toby thinks she is. She's connected to a hope chest... the one Toby recovered in #1, and it could be argued that that case is what tripped Toby down the line of becoming a living hope chest. I don't get exactly what her end game is though... (hide spoiler)]

Mean and Mighty / Distinction of Place / Notes of Sorrow... and more TBC (view spoiler)[About 20 years later, the Cat Queen still hasn't found Tybalt an heir, but the Court of Cats is thriving, and he & Queen Morane of the Divided Courts of Amorica get along fine. Then out of the blue, Rozenn's father shows up demanding her back. Since her father has a habit of fathering changelings to use as currency (like selling them to the local monarch as disposable servants until rescued by our favorite cat), that's not going to happen. But the father claims that his monarch (the Twylwth Teg who tried to poison a marriage out of Queen Morane) has gotten his hands on a hope chest, and that Rozenn can be made fully Fae, and actually inherit his Ducal seat.

Tybalt goes to the neighboring Court of Cats to visit the Queen, then on to the neighboring Divided Court to investigate, and finds a really weird situation. The Twylwth Teg King has married a Twylwth Teg woman who refuses to be named Queen and acts very strangely, refusing to look at Tybalt and acting very rude in general. The King claims he has indeed come into a hope chest--and this is after the time when all the hope chests have disappeared, leaving only 2 out of the original 12 in circulation. One of those is in Londinium--the one used to change his niece to full Cait Sidhe. The other... I forget. Anyway, this is a third, the one belonging to the Twylwth Teg first.

Tybalt goes to visit Rozenn's father to investigate further, and meets her two younger sisters, who claim to have already been changed by the hope chest. But Tybalt sees that they have not been changed, but are under a very strong glamor. He convinces the family to greet the dawn together and reveals that the "hope chest" magic was not real. Tybalt returns home to tell Rozenn the news, only to find that she has been kidnapped. The only witness is Rozenn's girlfriend, a changeling Reynard who was spooked into transforming into a fox by the attack, and can't change back. Tybalt asks Queen Morane to use her Daoine Sidge gift of "borrowing"--using blood to borrow the magic of another--to help her change back. He learns the kidnapper was probably the strange Twylwth Teg woman married to the neighboring King.

And cliffhanger. (hide spoiler)]

Thoughts: (view spoiler)[Here's one specific contradiction then--in the first of these stories, when Rozenn's girlfriend is introduced, she's described as having very comfortably inherited her mother's magic and enjoying spending time as a fox. But in the last of these stories, she's described as not having enough magic to change, and never having made the transformation before. Could be Tybalt just didn't know, but I think McGuire just hadn't decided on that path yet... maybe.

Anyway, this is the first story where I really have no idea what's going on or why. Why kidnap Rozenn, the changeling child of a random Daoine Sidhe? There's a million of those out there--if this was some random magic-science experiment, it wouldn't have to be her specifically. (hide spoiler)]

Damn, ran out of space, lol! Thoughts continued--(view spoiler)[which suggests that this is actually personal... and it might be connected to Tybalt's time in London... but I can't see Cyne dealing with a Twylwth Teg... (hide spoiler)]

Anway, I finally started the book itself, and already, the shorts are paying off. Through Chapter 3--(view spoiler)[There's a line in the shorts, when Tybalt says something about waiting with a person who just died because the night-haunts won't come if there is someone there. But here right in the first few chapters, Toby & co wait for the night-haunts to arrive. I'm thinking Toby gets special treatment--either because she's called them before, and well, May's there too--or because maybe the night haunts are backing whatever play Toby is on the board, even though she doesn't fully realize she's being used in some kind of big game. They kind of said so in their earlier conversations but I don't remember the specifics.

Also, from the shorts, especially with Rozenn's story--it's very clearly stated that a changeling would NEVER be allowed to hold a seat of power, like a Duchy. But Queen of the Mists appointed Toby to Goldengreen. I'm imagining she's the first changeling ever to hold court status. And there's got to be more behind that than just getting Toby in trouble.

Finally--Queen is selling goblin fruit and orders Toby out of town? Heh. I think she's not going to be Queen for very long. But is this all part of someone's plan? (hide spoiler)]

Oh! and I've been doing a lot of research on the shorts--I think chronologically and thematically, the following shorts are really good to read after this book too--

Full of Briars--separate ebook, Quentin POV follows directly after Chimes at Midnight
In Little Stars--history of the Kingdom of the Mists, Gilad POV, on the Patreon
Never Shines The Sun--Luideag story, connected to Toby's special history, in some versions of Chimes at Midnight (supposedly print only--though I have an ebook version of it I have no idea where it came from...)

Choko wrote: "Up to Ch. 6 ..."

re: Chapter 5 & 6--(view spoiler)[I am so digging Toby & Tybalt! They are so cute... and I love how Toby keeps eyeing Tybalt's behind in his leather trousers...

Actually, there was a great line in one of the shorts about how fashion kept changing in the mortal world, but he couldn't see how humans could ever improve on trousers as he tied laces... made me think of how he had jeans and zippers and elastic to look forward to, lol.

So the Queen is Banshee, Siren, and gah, forget the third one. But they all see very sea-based mix... or maybe seashore mix. what does she have against the Sea races so much? How could she possibly claim to be Gilan's daughter with no Tuatha? Sort of vaguely remember there was something about Gilan in the Lorden book.... in the forest... I don't think finding evidence to support this is going to be enough though. I wonder if Toby will have to track down someone who is actually Gilan's descendant... if he had any? Wouldn't it be nifty if she found a changeling...

Loving Mags. Always love me a down-to-earth librarian character. And it was really fun seeing the Lorden's & Luideag again, if only for a short span. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 7--laughing at a lot of little lines here... (view spoiler)[Toby getting comfortable enough with the Shadow Roads to think about drinking her coffee while running them... and when she comes out its frozen.

Wanting popcorn to watch the Luideag go to town on the Queen's goons.

Getting VERY curious about the Luideag's rules, and how they were set upon her. She cannot lie, she cannot interfere of her own free will it seems... She cannot use things of her own making... I wonder how much of this is tied back to the history with Merlin, where she was both the Lady of the Lake and Nimue? Mentioned randomly in one of the Tybalt shorts, and I know there's a Luideag short about it too...

That bit about "true love, childbirth, and bees..." True love is a common one, childbirth is the original Sleeping Beauty... what old Faerie tale has people waking from bees?

Well, it looks like Toby is going to find the real heir, not just discredit the Queen... I still feel like someone is pulling strings though--what would drive a Banshee/Siren/other mix, not even one of the regular ruling races, to randomly claim a Kingdom? (hide spoiler)]

Okay Emily, Iain... how safe are those unmarked spoiler tags?

Choko wrote: "Up to Ch. 11... They found the princess and her sleeping brother very fast, I wasn't expecting that... I can understand how lonesome and scared she must have been feeling after they Elfshot her sib..."

Through chapter 10--(view spoiler)[I was thinking both of those same things... I was expecting the search to last longer, but it was barely even a chapter's worth. Which leaves plenty of space for other problems... girding my loins...

And Marcia definitely recognized Arden. A bit strange for a quarter-blood who supposedly can't be older than Toby. So, is she someone in disguise? A Firstborn or even one of the Three, since they can change shape entire? Pukas can too, it seems, but she doesn't have any funky body part we can see... Toby or Tybalt would see if her changeling was just a glamor. If Evening is a First like Luideag... it kind of seems like several of them have a habit of hiding in places where they can subtly meddle. There's a lot of potential "M" names in faerie tales...

Older chapter, but I'm hoping that the "favor" Li Qin is working up to his getting October's help to bring January et al back... somehow meld the data in the harddrives back into their blood... (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 11 @Choko--your expletive had me very worried... (view spoiler)[so the pie-in-face actually came as a relief... with Toby dosed, I'm keeping fingers crossed that means they're going to come up with the narcan equivalent... or some sort of anti-toxin...

I love how Toby bribes the Pixies with cheeseburgers. Definitely feels like a nod to Dresden & Toot-Toot & pizza.... (hide spoiler)]

Nirkatze wrote: "Okay Emily, Iain... how safe are those unmarked spoiler tags?"

I think they're OK... Choko discussed her thoughts on those spoilers... you've already noticed a million things earlier than I did because of all the discussion, and this is a spoiler we don't have answers to, yet... pure theoryfodder...

We've avoided what I THINK the spoiler means, that's a discussion for later on, closer to the end of the series so far :D

Through Chapter 14--(view spoiler)[So.... Toby's blood is now a bouncy ball. Back and forth. Well, that's interesting. Like, she just lost several levels as a D&D character.

And it's interesting that Toby's relationship with the roads seems affected by her blood--previously it seemed like it had to do more with her trust in Tybalt. Retroactive?

Hope chests: Five given to the best, five to the worst. One to the author of the book, one to her bitterest enemy.

Hah! More evidence that Winterrose is the Daoine Sidhe mama--direct connection to Goldengreen. I'm betting she was either one of the five worst or the bitterest enemy. From the shorts, we know that the Torquills had one--I wonder if that was the author? And Winterrose the enemy? And I wonder if Winterrose might have been the red-haired lady Toby saw open Goldengreen with Amandine in the Through This House short, and the person who came after, and Winterrose? And maybe Marcia too, while we're at it...

And while they're talking about how to get hope chests... why don't they just take Goldengreen back when they upturn the Queen? They gave it to her for "safekeeping," right? Shouldn't they be able to get it back?

Oh, just realized that Walther & Malcom (September's husband) are both Tylwyth Teg alchemists. I wonder if alchemy is a TT thing. (hide spoiler)]

Also, can I just say I love Quentin's reaction to the Shadow Roads? (view spoiler)["I miss winters in Canada." (hide spoiler)] I won't lie--I've been thinking being able to dip into the Shadow Roads would be a real treat on hot days...

Nirkatze, you are awesome!!! Thank you for everything on the shorts above!!!

@Iain--good to know, thank you!

Chapter 16, I think... (view spoiler)[Well, if Luideag is Antigone and the author of the book, I'm willing to bet that Winterrose/Eira is the "bitterest enemy." Though I also suppose if Goldengreen was Hope Chest #7 she could just be "worst of us" #2. I wonder which one ended up with the Torquills?

Been doing more thinking about Hope Chests & mortals & changelings... especially with the fae pureblood birthrate being so abysmally low, it seems like changelings + hope chests is the only way to keep a population from completely tanking... (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 17--(view spoiler)[So, I notice every time someone swears by Maeve's tits, but unlike Danny, I didn't even blink at Oberon's scrotum.

Danny--"Take your time. I got a book." My kind of Bridge Troll! <3 u Danny. (hide spoiler)]

Danny is absolutely awesome!!! I miss his doggies:) He is being very considerate of The Cat:)))

Nirkatze wrote: "@Iain--good to know, thank you!

Chapter 16, I think......"

Chapter 16: I see you've gleaned alot of details, from them short stories and maybe Emily's talk of the story included in the Chimes ebook... (view spoiler)[and that's funny... never made that numbering connection before...

Snow White & the 7th Hope Chest...

And McGuire basically told me to RAFO when I asked about Hope Chest / Dochas Sidhe / mixedblood stuff back in 2015ish... altho, she did a Q&A / FAQ on the subject like a month later, and I like to take some credit for that :D

I don't have it bookmarked tho, so it'll take alot of work to refind it... (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 17: (view spoiler)[Doesn't the Luideag say "Mom's tits" and "Dad's scrotum"?... I think it's happened at least once or twice... (hide spoiler)]

Haven't opened Emily's spoiler yet but I'm looking forward to it. Just hit Chapter 19--(view spoiler)[when Toby dives into the Luideag's memories... I'm pretty sure this scene is going to be in one of the shorts to read following this--in fact, I think it IS the same one Emily commented on... I know from the "back of book blurb" that it is a Luideag story from around the time Toby was born...

Also seems to confirm that Amandine IS the youngest of the Firsts... I wonder if Luideag is the oldest? of Maeve's. And I bet Winterrose is the oldest of Titania's. And depending on who Amandine's mother is, she could be oldest of her maternal line and youngest of her paternal line. If Luideag is oldest of Maeve's and Winterrose of Titania's, that makes for more support for them being bitterest enemies.

So, looks like Luideag has some sort of hope or plan for a better Faerie, and Amandine was on board but unwilling to take the actions necessary to get there? And she's so given up on Faerie in general that she'd rather her daughter be cut out of that heritage entire... I wonder what events drove her that far? More than just the general background racism that we see all over the place in Tybalt's shorts. And it makes it more likely that she's not a chess player, but maybe a lost piece that other players keep shaking the board to try to jog loose... until they had a nice juicy Toby to play with instead.

I wonder if Luideag's blood sort of acted like a borrowing... giving her a power boost to shift her own blood a little more. (hide spoiler)]

re: Chapter 16--lol! from RAFO to Q&A...

re: Chapter 17--definitely (view spoiler)[Luideag's said "Mom's tits!" and I think... maybe "Dad's hairy balls!" not sure I've heard scrotum though...

I don't think I've ever heard someone swear by Titania... which says a lot about the kid of bitch she is. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 20 (view spoiler)[Hah! The "open secret" is now officially officially open, not secret. Love how Quentin was like "I'm definitely not getting the royal treatment here."

LOL I'm glad Toby explained why she didn't see it--her prejudices blinded her--because it was pretty darn obvious. I wonder if we're going to think similar things about Marcia eventually?

Wondering if Marcia is a First in disguise, or if there was a real Marcia at some point and she got replaced by a body double... or if she's just been around a lot longer than we think and has insider information... she'd have to be at least 100 to recognize Arden & parents...

Also real cool to finally meet a Cu Sidhe! There's been a LOT of mention of them in the Tybalt shorts, but no meeting yet. I like their philosophy. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 21 (view spoiler)[And now May recognizes Arden too... I wonder if that's specifically from being someone who knew Gilad or maybe from his night-haunt...

And does anyone else (not listening to the audiobook and also doing the In Death BR) hear Roarke in your head when Tybalt speaks? Especially when he and Toby get in to discussions about who is protecting whom.

Why isn't Toby having any more Luideag lozenges? Was there only one? (hide spoiler)]

Choko wrote: "Danny is absolutely awesome!!! I miss his doggies:) He is being very considerate of The Cat:)))"

Ditto! I hope he asks Connie out...

Marcia: I think this is safe to say, at this point: (view spoiler)[my prevailing theory, that I've mentioned so often in Goodreads review comments, and threads, is that Marcia is Maeve... somehow...

I feel like it's gained traction among the fans, but if it's true, it hasn't played out and been revealed yet... if anything, I think the details that HAVE come to light in later books make it less likely to be true, but I still hold fast...

Regardless, she's something... (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 22 (view spoiler)[So May has memories of a servant of Gilad's. One thing explained. And it does seem like around Toby, a lot of "secrets"--night-haunts, Amandine's true nature, more... tend to get aired. I wonder if part of changing faerie means cutting down on the secrets?

I'm also loving the contrast between Cu Sidhe and Cait Sidhe--Tybalt hates cars, Madden loves them--and how Toby & Arden are butting heads a bit about it... like you could split the cast into dog people and cat people. So cute. Betting McGuire is more cat person, just from the way the bias is written. Danny's a dog person.

If Luideag can't raise a hand against a descendant of Titania... I wonder if that means her counterpart (assuming Winterrose) can't actively raise hands against descendants of Maeve? And that Toby is fair game for both sides.

And more confirmation that being the youngest/oldest of the Firstborn is something special, and that Amandine is "the Last of the First"--and somehow Gilan could have "saved himself"? And they're blaming the earthquake on Amandine. Or maybe Oleander. Well... the 1930s is only a couple decades before Toby was born. Whatever catalyst inspired Amandine to go out and get thee a changeling could have been circa that time period. Wondering if one of the post-book shorts covers this...

Heh, I love them using May as a trap-springer. We really haven't gotten enough of that. (hide spoiler)]

Random line from one of the Tybalt shorts... regarding Maeve or Titania... been thinking on it... (view spoiler)[There was a throwaway line in one of the later stories about "the mortal woman who (some verb like "brought down") his Queen" or somesuch. One of Oberon's wives was taken out--killed? made sleep? usurped? by a mortal woman? 1) which queen? Maeve or Titania? and 2) could this be Amandine's mother? (hide spoiler)]

Timelord Iain wrote: "Marcia: ..."

That's one of the possibilities I was entertaining... M's, y'know. (view spoiler)[though I'm also wondering--just from this book--if she isn't somehow connected to Gilad's story. Her first notable stumble was when King Gilad was mentioned in Chapter 5--when she tripped while bringing in the tea service. Then her double-take when she sees Arden. Are Tuatha of Maeve's or Titania's line?

Also thinking about Lily... she was... undine? And I feel like there was something about the undine not being descended from the Three? Need to retrace that.

Anyway, I'll definitely be paying attention when I hit the shorts... after this book... seems like there's a lot of potential for detail digging... (hide spoiler)]

Also random thought about Toby's name... (view spoiler)[Amandine was fostered with September and they were best buddies, maybe more... October could be a Torquill "family" name--or she could have just been named AFTER Amandine's foster sister September. Get it? After? (hide spoiler)]

Nirkatze wrote: "Timelord Iain wrote: "Marcia: ..."..."

Undine were born from Maeve's tears, the first time Oberon left her for Titania...

And that Toby thing was pure dad joke...

Nirkatze wrote: "Chapter 22 ..."

Chapter 22: Seanan is definitely a cat person... tons of cat pics and vet info on her patreon... (this might not be a safe spoiler, Emily can spot-check me... I'm asking whether we had a flashback awhile ago or not, I think we did): (view spoiler)[ Wasn't there a flashback in the Oleander book, to a time when Oleander visited Amandine's Tower when October was a kid?... I think Stacy's oneiromancer kid showed it to Toby in a dream?...

This is another clue to things... also...

Re: Random Line: you (Nirkatze) stumbled on some mega-spoilers in a theory section of a previous book spoiler discussion :D

I feel like you have alot of the pieces to solve alot of the larger plots, at this point, but not the finer details... just from your research and vast mythology knowledge... (hide spoiler)]

Ah, thank you for the Undine information! So, they're kind of like, pure Maeve then. I wonder if there are any other bloodlines which are purely of M or T, with no O?

Will await Emily's confirmation before clicking very tempting spoiler...

Hah, I knew I liked McGuire. Cat people rule!

Chapter 23--(view spoiler)[damn, I forgot about Etienne losing his powers for a year and a day. Looking up the dates... that was in June, and it's only August "now." (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 24--Dianda is wicked! (view spoiler)[ Love her. Glad we get some Lorden backstory coming up in later shorts. New flashes from more Luideag blood--Blonde woman kissing on the beach: probably Liz from the short "In Sea-Salt Tears." The others I don't have any idea:
Luideag in a bog, watching smoke curl up against the stars, holding a little boy who had Blind Michael's eyes--if that is Blind Michael, it supports the theory that Luideag is the Eldest.
The Luideag in the arms of a man with hair the color of twilight, blackness shot through with glints of gold and rose.--No clue... unless this isn't a romantic "in the arms" but maybe father-daughter? Coloring makes it most likely he is Fae of some kind. Maybe the father of the Roane? (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 25 (view spoiler)[Hello October-inside-October. Where did you come from? This is making me think of the Dresden-inside-Dresden pep talks we get sometimes when he goes unconscious. But is this a "natural" effect of the hope chest, or is this like Toby the Hero, connected to a chess-player agenda? Or an external force entirely? Like Lash?

Two knives together... not picking one. That makes me think--again--of how Firsts are killed. Both Silver and Iron together. Did she just up her power by combining the choices/not making one?

So, Undersea is like the Court of Cats? Titles go to those who can hold them...? Maeve's get? Were all three of the Cait Sidhe Firsts via Maeve?

And please correct me if I'm wrong... but the Banshee/Siren/Sea Wight (former) Queen of the Mists never got named, did she? Is that weird? Like, where in tarnation did she come from? (hide spoiler)]

You guys are going deep! I am enjoying gaining knowledge through your notes very much!