The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

Dinah Maria Mulock Craik
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message 1: by Lori, Moderator (last edited Jul 15, 2023 03:06PM) (new)

Lori Goshert (lori_laleh) | 1811 comments Mod
Posting in case I'm not home tomorrow.

Why is the Rothesays’ marriage unhappy?

What is Olive’s attitude toward her “deformity”? How does it differ from that of others?

What do you think of Sara Derwent?

How does Olive’s first ball go?

What explanations may there be for Captain Rothesay’s behavior? Is he keeping a secret?

There have been a few passages in this section that might or might not be considered foreshadowing. Do you have any predictions based (or not) on these?


message 2: by Robin P, Moderator (new)

Robin P | 2650 comments Mod
I was surprised that Olive was so shocked at hearing she was "deformed". I would have thought she would have overheard other comments about this, especially since she was always quietly in the background.

I predicted that Sara would ditch Charles, maybe that means Olive will have a chance at him someday. Sara seemed to be a typical young woman, nice enough to Olive, but not seeing the world in the ultra-romantic way Olive did.

Captain Rothesay has become very sinister. Yet Olive is devoted to him. Actually she is devoted to everyone in her life!


message 3: by sabagrey (new)

sabagrey | 175 comments And I was surprised at the bad manners of host & hostess plus all their guests at the ball. Wouldn't you expect that at a Victorian private ball, young men would be obliged to dance with every young lady present, at least once? And if they had not enough decency by themselves, their parents and their hosts would tell them what to do. - The behaviour as described, to ostracize Olive so totally, is simply not plausible to me, and my incredulity extends to her shock about her defect as noted by Robin.

The author needed a plot point to make Olive realise that she is different, and to have her religious moment - okay. It's just not very well constructed.


message 4: by Robin P, Moderator (new)

Robin P | 2650 comments Mod
As far as religion, the very beginning of this section says that Olive knew about death but not immortality or something like that. But later it seems she knows about Heaven and traditional Christian concepts. Church is never mentioned here, but it would have been a part of the family's life, I noticed that last week too. Maybe it was so obvious, it went without saying.


message 5: by Rosemarie, Moderator (new)

Rosemarie | 3316 comments Mod
I see a parallel between Sara and Gwynne's upcoming marriage and Rotheshay's and Sybilla's.
Both of them fell suddenly in love with a pretty young thing.

I have a dreadful feeling that Rothesay is not going to come home again-because he can't. A railway accident?

My heart goes out to Olive, as always. She is really getting a raw deal out of life!


message 6: by Jenny (new)

Jenny H (jenny_norwich) Yes, a railway accident is looking horribly likely to me, too!


message 7: by Jenny (new)

Jenny H (jenny_norwich) sabagrey wrote: "And I was surprised at the bad manners of host & hostess plus all their guests at the ball. Wouldn't you expect that at a Victorian private ball, young men would be obliged to dance with every youn..."

Yes, I thought so too! Surely it's the hostess's duty to make sure all the young ladies have partners? And why was Olive there on her own, anyway? Surely a girl of 16 is chaperoned at these things? Obviously we must suppose the author knows the protocol of her own era, but it seems very odd that a young girl should be making her own way home after dark, even if it is only next door.

Angus's visit to the Gwynnes seems a bit odd, too - he hasn't seen Mrs G for thirty years, but he's so sure she'll invite him to stay that he arranges for his post to be directed there? And she persuades her son to lend him an enormous sum of money to finance a business venture? It rather strains credulity.

Is there a hint that Harold might not be her husband's son, do you think? Perhaps the mysterious Archibald's, whose ring she wears? I assume he was the man she was previously engaged to.


message 8: by sabagrey (new)

sabagrey | 175 comments Jenny wrote: "It rather strains credulity."

So many things in this novel do ... First of all, for me, are the characters. From the beginning, I was confused by Olive's characterisation which seemed to me inconsistent- but that could be because she was a child. But now the inconsistencies include her mother and her father. They seem to be different people from one chapter to the next - there is no "core" personality to which I can relate.

... which takes much of the enjoyment out of my reading this novel. I will go on, but without enthusiasm. I will take this novel as an object of study to find out what makes a second-rate novel, as compared to the acknowledged masterpieces of the period that we read more often.

... this does not mean that I limit myself to the 'canon'. There are (re)discoveries to be made, to be sure. (Remember that Gaskell was almost forgotten once.) Not so long ago, I participated in a group read that surprised us all agreeably - the second-rated novel by a second-rated author. But there's a lot of chaff to go through to find a grain of wheat.


message 9: by Lori, Moderator (new)

Lori Goshert (lori_laleh) | 1811 comments Mod
sabagrey wrote: "I will take this novel as an object of study to find out what makes a second-rate novel, as compared to the acknowledged masterpieces of the period that we read more often."

To be honest, yes. I enjoyed the book in general, but there were several places where I thought "This might be why this author isn't as popular as others."

Olive had an active imagination as a small child. She still has it, but I would have liked more examples of it. Would have added some depth to her overall "people-pleasing" demeanor.


message 10: by Robin P, Moderator (new)

Robin P | 2650 comments Mod
Yes, the characters are rather hollow and inconsistent.


message 11: by sabagrey (new)

sabagrey | 175 comments Nevertheless, there are a few lines at the beginning of ch. 10 which I really like:

He “my deared” her into her grave.

wonderful formulation ... who knows, if the author could have left her bigotry behind, maybe she would have written some good satire?


message 12: by Jenny (new)

Jenny H (jenny_norwich) sabagrey wrote: "... who knows, if the author could have left her bigotry behind, maybe she would have written some good satire?.."

What do you mean by 'bigotry' here? I haven't noticed anything in particular so far that would qualify as such.


message 13: by sabagrey (new)

sabagrey | 175 comments Jenny wrote: "What do you mean by 'bigotry' here? I haven't noticed anything i..."

maybe not the right word here? I'm no English native speaker, so not always sure of meanings ... just forget it.


message 14: by Brian E (last edited Jul 19, 2023 09:50PM) (new)

Brian E Reynolds | 926 comments sabagrey wrote: " Not so long ago, I participated in a group read that surprised us all agreeably - the second-rated novel by a second-rated author."

If that was Mary Cholmondeley's Diana Tempest, after seeing how the Victorian group enjoyed that book, I helped push for her novel Red Pottage to be the Reading the 20th Century's Victober read this year.


message 15: by sabagrey (new)

sabagrey | 175 comments Brian E wrote: "If that was Mary Cholmondeley's Diana Tempest, after seeing how the Victorian group enjoyed that book, I helped push for her novel Red Pottage to be the Reading the 20th Century's Victober read this year."

it was ;-) - but what do you mean by "Reading the 20th Century's Victober read"?


message 16: by Robin P, Moderator (last edited Jul 19, 2023 11:25PM) (new)

Robin P | 2650 comments Mod
I was thinking of doing Red Pottage as a Mod choice in September for this group.


message 17: by Brian E (last edited Jul 20, 2023 12:06AM) (new)

Brian E Reynolds | 926 comments Robin P wrote: "I was thinking of doing Red Pottage as a Mod choice in September for this group."

Please do! That would be wonderful timing for me! I would definitely participate here as I love and prefer the weekly discussion schedule used here. The RTTC has one thread and sometimes people read the book before, during and after that month and just post when they finish. I'd do that there whenever I finish with the weekly reads here.


message 18: by Brian E (last edited Jul 20, 2023 12:08AM) (new)

Brian E Reynolds | 926 comments sabagrey wrote: "but what do you mean by "Reading the 20th Century's Victober read"?."

Victoner is a celebration of Victorian literature by reading VICtorian books during ocTOBER. There is a Goodreads Group devoted to it: https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...

The Reading the 20th Century (RTTC) Goodreads Group also does a Victorian novel each October as a mini-celebration. Its a flexible group as it involves a GR group devoted to reading 20th Century novels during the 21st Century reading a 19th Century novel.

Roman Clodia, the RTTC moderator hosting the Victober read has opened the thread for it already: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Excuse the nonsense comments but Roman Clodia created the thread right when Goodreads crashed about 3 weeks ago


message 19: by Trev (new)

Trev | 687 comments I have just finished the second section of chapters and I have to admit I am finding the novel increasingly jarring due to the style and over-sentimentalised presentation. There seems to be endless repetition for example between the lack of love, or maybe there is love for Olive, and I am getting rather tired of being told again and again about the problems between the ‘gruff Scottish’ captain and his ‘child-like’ wife.

In many ways this novel was a missed opportunity because the elements relating to Olive and her struggles to rise above adversity are well worth pursuing. However some of the plot structures are so telegraphed ( eg Sara and her seafaring fiancé and the gambling Captain) that the only suspense lies beneath the floorboards. Also the two boys in the field gets rather tedious. Lionel may be Olive’s only real friend but why is his sniggering brother always behind the fence?

Olive herself seems to vary in character from absolute naivety eg in not realising about her deformity until she is sixteen, to being the fountain of knowledge eg when advising Sara about constancy in relationships.

I will persevere because this new author for me deserves to have at least one of her books read to the end. Also I do want Olive to succeed in her life, even if that was something that the majority of children in her position probably never got the chance to do.

Reading Olive reminded me that Elizabeth Barrett Browning had a spinal problem from her early teenage years that caused her problems for the rest of her life.
’ She had intense head and spinal pain with loss of mobility. Various biographies link this to a riding accident at the time (she fell while trying to dismount a horse), but there is no evidence to support the link. Sent to recover at the Gloucester spa, she was treated – in the absence of symptoms supporting another diagnosis – for a spinal problem…… this illness continued for the rest of her life,…(from Wikipedia)’
The fact that Robert Browning sent her love letters and finally ran off with her after visiting her ‘lying on her couch,’ makes me think that Olive might yet have happiness before her.


message 20: by Lori, Moderator (new)

Lori Goshert (lori_laleh) | 1811 comments Mod
Trev wrote: "The fact that Robert Browning sent her love letters and finally ran off with her after visiting her ‘lying on her couch,’ makes me think that Olive might yet have happiness before her."

And you just reminded me of the disabled but beautiful character in Barchester Towers! I'd forgotten about her.


message 21: by Robin P, Moderator (new)

Robin P | 2650 comments Mod
Lori wrote: "Trev wrote: "The fact that Robert Browning sent her love letters and finally ran off with her after visiting her ‘lying on her couch,’ makes me think that Olive might yet have happiness before her...."

The disability in Trollope was a bit questionable. But there have been some studies of Victorian women invalids. In many cases, there were real issues, maybe gynecological, or stemming from medical treatment, like Louisa May Alcott, whose treatment with mercury probably caused her later issues. Also mental and emotional stresses weren’t recognized as serious, but being an “invalid “ was. Of course, only certain classes had the luxury of spending days in bed. Sophia Peabody Hawthorne, wife of Nathaniel, was the invalid of her family, but once she married and left home, she was suddenly much better.


message 22: by Deborah, Moderator (new)

Deborah (deborahkliegl) | 4617 comments Mod
I’m really unsure about this book. These chapters didn’t capture my interest as the first selection did. I will definitely finish reading it as I had never heard of this author previously.


message 23: by Trev (new)

Trev | 687 comments Brian E wrote: "sabagrey wrote: " Not so long ago, I participated in a group read that surprised us all agreeably - the second-rated novel by a second-rated author."

If that was Mary Cholmondeley's..."


I have read all Mary Cholmondeley’s full novels except one. Also quite a few of her short story collections. I have been impressed by her wit and craft as a writer and, although she may have been classed as second rate, she beats quite a few of the first rated authors in my view. I have resisted Notwithstanding so far because I hope to suggest it as group read in the future. It was flagged up by critics of her day as one of her best.


message 24: by Jenny (new)

Jenny H (jenny_norwich) sabagrey wrote: "Jenny wrote: "What do you mean by 'bigotry' here? I haven't noticed anything i..."

maybe not the right word here? I'm no English native speaker, so not always sure of meanings ... just forget it."


I beg your pardon, I hadn't realised - nobody would ever guess!


message 25: by Abigail (last edited Jul 25, 2023 06:04AM) (new)

Abigail Bok (regency_reader) | 975 comments Slowly catching up—my reading schedule has gotten the better of me this month. And there’s yet Carmilla to get to!

This author’s self-consciousness is the main barrier for me. She tells us over a couple of sentences that there’s no point in describing the landscape, and then two paragraphs later she’s describing it in detail. And she’s always telling us about what’s going on instead of giving us dialogue scenes so we can figure it out for ourselves—makes it hard to engage. It’s as though she can’t get past the idea in her mind that she’s telling us a story and just focus on the story.

She certainly leans on the doomy bits awfully hard. It seems obvious at the end of chapter 16 that the Captain has just ruined Mr. Gwynne and his mother—and incidentally Sara as well, which she will probably hold against the unsuspecting Olive. Were stories like these intended as condemnation of the excessive power men had in this society, or is that a modern reading?

Olive herself is certainly a pleaser, rather like Fanny Price but more so. For a more robust handicapped character we might read Fanny Burney’s Camilla sometime (no r).


message 26: by Jenny (new)

Jenny H (jenny_norwich) Abigail wrote: "And she’s always telling us about what’s going on instead of giving us dialogue scenes so we can fifer it out for ourselves—makes it hard to engage. It’s as though she can’t get past the idea in her mind that she’s telling us a story and just focus on the story...."

Yes, that's what I don't like about it. She's always telling, not showing.


message 27: by Abigail (new)

Abigail Bok (regency_reader) | 975 comments How on earth did spell check get “fifer” out of figure? Does anyone else feel spell checkers are getting more intrusive, not less? (And stupider.)


message 28: by Rosemarie, Moderator (new)

Rosemarie | 3316 comments Mod
I turned off the spell check. If I make a typo, most people can figure it out.


message 29: by Abigail (new)

Abigail Bok (regency_reader) | 975 comments I did that on my desktop but can’t figure (fifer) out how to do it on my iPad.


message 30: by Rosemarie, Moderator (new)

Rosemarie | 3316 comments Mod
Abigail, click on General in Settings and then click on Keyboard. There's a list of options to choose from.


message 31: by Abigail (new)

Abigail Bok (regency_reader) | 975 comments Thank you so much!!! Running off to end my eternal torment. 😄


message 32: by Brian E (new)

Brian E Reynolds | 926 comments Abigail wrote: "Thank you so much!!! Running off to end my eternal torment. 😄"

Grate noos! I luk fourward too al yur fushure poosts!


message 33: by Abigail (new)

Abigail Bok (regency_reader) | 975 comments Fortunately, I was a career copy editor so you should be pretty safe from outrage or confusion.


message 34: by Nancy (new)

Nancy | 255 comments I'm still enjoying the book, although the comments all of you have posted are making me look at it with a more critical style. Two things I noticed about this section are (1) Sara's cruel remarks about Olive when she thinks Olive is out of earshot - I suspect she is really a very shallow person and not a true friend and (2) The Captain's deterioration - he obviously is having money problems and is resorting to drink. I'm also puzzled by his reaction to the proposed marriage of Sara and Gwynne; surely he can't still be in love with a woman so much his senior whom he hasn't seen since childhood?


message 35: by Rosemarie, Moderator (new)

Rosemarie | 3316 comments Mod
I had the impression that Sara was very shallow as well-and fickle!


message 36: by Jenny (new)

Jenny H (jenny_norwich) Nancy wrote: "I'm also puzzled by his reaction to the proposed marriage of Sara and Gwynne; surely he can't still be in love with a woman so much his senior whom he hasn't seen since childhood?
..."


That seemed odd to me too. I'm afraid the author needed to have him meet Harold on terms of trust, and giving Angus a childhood crush on his mother was the best she could think of, but it's not very plausible, is it?


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